first hand of a sng, someone triples the blind UTG, folded around to the button where you reraise to 9x with KK. the blinds folds and UTG calls. the flopes comes Ad9s3h and villian checks.
betting this flop is incorrect.
discuss.
10-26-2005 12:42 PM
#1
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KK with an ace!first hand of a sng, someone triples the blind UTG, folded around to the button where you reraise to 9x with KK. the blinds folds and UTG calls. the flopes comes Ad9s3h and villian checks. | |
10-26-2005 01:36 PM
#2
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Well since he calls the 9XBB bet he would probably have, AA, KK, QQ, or AK, AQ(questionable) | |
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10-26-2005 01:42 PM
#3
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beacuse you're beat and AA would check-raise or check-call here. |
10-26-2005 01:46 PM
#4
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I think you're both way off. | |
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10-26-2005 01:46 PM
#5
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its the first level of a sng, this person doesn't necessarily have one of these hands. | |
10-26-2005 01:54 PM
#6
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10-26-2005 03:10 PM
#7
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From the mind of an evil noob...I wouldn't get stupid here b/c it's so early and even your 9x raise is only 90 chips, which really ain't shit compared to the enormous amount you lose when you start getting cute here. I'd check it down and hope for a K on fourth street. | |
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10-26-2005 03:53 PM
#8
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I would bet 100$ & see what he does. First hand is always crazy, he could just as easy have 22. Fold to any aggresion. I would bet he folds after that flop. |
10-26-2005 03:58 PM
#9
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10-26-2005 04:21 PM
#10
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wouldn't the buy-in be pretty integral to answering this question? | |
10-26-2005 04:49 PM
#11
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honestly i wouldnt check this after the flop cause alot of people in early stages of the tournament call any raise with pocket pairs or even kq kj j10 or any ace x. i would bet the flop double what u bet preflop hoping he doesnt have big slick Aq or Aj or Ax. if he reraises you then i would fold if he calls then you have to be careful he might have a small pocket pair and fold but i wouldnt check after the flop with the kings and let him steal the pot with a small pair or some other bullshit like qj or kq or kj or j10.i feel checking the flop after a big preflop raise shows your weakness. to many times i threw down the best hand to a smaller pocket pair. this may seem dumb but it always works out best for me when i have pocket k's with an ace on board if he has the ace trust me he will let you know he has the ace after your flop bet. like i said i read in plent y of books with pocket k's with an ace on board is to bet the flop to see where you stand if he calls or reraises you then be prepared to check after the turn which he may also check to give the free card on the river. thats just my info it might not be the smartest move but it still can help to see where your at with your k's. so what im trying to say is to bet big preflop then to check the flop to me shows weakness and alot of times the guy can steal the pot from you. sorry about my rambling |
10-26-2005 05:05 PM
#12
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{This post has been removed} |
10-26-2005 05:13 PM
#13
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better hands call you, worse hands fold, the only way you make money from worse hands is by catching bluffs, which you don't do by betting. | |
10-26-2005 05:20 PM
#14
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I usually throw out a continuation bet of 1/2 pot and and see how opp reacts. If called or raised, I slow way down or fold. But to check and give a free card is bad imho, unless you plan on betting the turn. You can't check-raise the turn cuz you have position.... | |
10-26-2005 05:25 PM
#15
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betting costs you money. what free card are you scared of? you have the same chance of hitting your two outer (if that is what you are worried about), which means you can make more from the person if they have an ace. | |
10-26-2005 05:39 PM
#16
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10-26-2005 05:39 PM
#17
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Gabe, I understand where you are coming from. Your strat is perfect for river play. But this is just the flop. What happens when you check and he pots the turn? You are right about worse hands folding, but giving free cards with the best hand isn't great either. In addition to maximizing my winnings, I want to minimize my losses. I think villian either has the A or a smaller pp. A half pot bet may help me find out where I stand and discourage a bluff attempt to make me fold the better hand. As to what is the most profitable...... hard to say, but without trips, do you really want to play a big pot here? |
10-26-2005 05:41 PM
#18
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What happens when he 3/4s the turn gabe? |
10-26-2005 06:11 PM
#19
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10-26-2005 06:20 PM
#20
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This sounds like good advice if the opponent is a thinking player, but what if he's the type of player who will call you down all the way to the river with any pair and any draw? | |
10-26-2005 06:26 PM
#21
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I've always been a big fan of defining my hand strength. I can't see how you can do that by checking the flop. Although there are arguments for checking the flop, I'd rather bet. If you bet half the pot, there are three things that can happen. A) he comes over the top, and you know you're behind (especially since it's the first hand). B) he folds, and you move on to the next hand. C) he calls. Now I would be very suspicious. If he checks the turn, I check behind, and depending on the size of the river bet, I call. If he bets the turn, I'd probably lay it down. |
10-26-2005 06:26 PM
#22
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I think the reason GABE posted this was to show that he thinks betting the flop is -EV in the longrun. Yet, you have to see where your at Gabe, giving an opponent a free card is against all poker rules. I REPEAT DONT GIVE YOUR OPPONENTS ANY FREE CARDS. See where you stand with a bet, its not like your commited if he check raises or check calls. If you decide to just check the hand, you have not defined your strong hand or repped the ace. Therefore your opponent will attack the pot when he sees your weakness and you will not know where you clearly stand. |
10-26-2005 06:37 PM
#23
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One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV. |
10-26-2005 06:40 PM
#24
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10-26-2005 06:52 PM
#25
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I'm interested in just taking the pot down on the flop by repping the ace. If you feel very comfortable postflop its of course more +EV to check the flop and catch an occasional bluff on the turn or river. But if you are the kind of guy (like me), who wont feel comfortable calling a potsized bet on the turn from opp in EP when theres an ace on the flop - then I would say its more +EV to repp the ace on the flop. | |
10-26-2005 07:16 PM
#26
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ROBERT- checking the flop and calling the pot on the turn costs about the same as repping the A on the flop and gets you an extra card to improve by getting you to the river. |
10-26-2005 07:55 PM
#27
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10-27-2005 12:15 AM
#28
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10-27-2005 12:26 AM
#29
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10-27-2005 12:32 AM
#30
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loanhorse wrote: |
10-27-2005 12:51 AM
#31
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so you represent the ace, and anyone with an ace calls, and anyone without an ace folds. that seems like it will cost you money. | |
10-27-2005 01:13 AM
#32
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you make a convincing argument gabe. | |
10-27-2005 01:14 AM
#33
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10-27-2005 03:42 AM
#34
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I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn. | |
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10-27-2005 05:10 AM
#35
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And if you are first to act? | |
10-27-2005 06:03 AM
#36
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10-27-2005 08:50 AM
#37
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After he checked the flop, he has one of the following: 1) A-high or AA, and is hoping to trap/check raise, 2) a pp lower than yours, 3) A-x suited, or 4) KQ or something retarded and missed completely. If you make a probe bet, you can see where you stand, and play out the rest of the hand with that knowledge. If he reraises, you're done with the hand. If he flat calls, I would put him on Ax, but with the added incentive of probably having it checked down to the river. PP or worse fold (u win the pot, inless he's a moron and u get his chips). If you DONT bet, he WILL bet the turn. If he has QQ or JJ, thats all fine and good. But if he has Ax, you are losing money. And can you call big bets on the turn and river here? (which is how QQ should play this against you). This is also avoiding the fact that by checking u are giving free cards. What happens when 77 catches his set on the turn? How far can you go with this hand blind with no information? Its early, I personally would like to see where I am in the hand, esp with no reads. just my 2 cents. |
10-27-2005 09:25 AM
#38
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I am betting 3/4 of the pot here. I have a strong hand but I need information, and the only way to get it is a pot-sized bet or thereabouts. |
10-27-2005 09:46 AM
#39
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I think Gabe's point is that you don't need information to play the hand, and as such, a bet is a waste. You make more when you're ahead if you don't bet (because of a worse hand bluffing instead of folding). Assuming you are going to call opp's turn bet, and this bet will be comparable in size to the one you were going to make, you're losing the same if you're behind (assuming you fold to another bet on the river and that only a hand that can beat you will bet the river). | |
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10-27-2005 10:01 AM
#40
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Very good thread. Thought provoking to say the least. I never would have considered playing KK like that with an A on the board, but I never would have thought about it in quite this way before. I guess now I will not only have to ask myself what I want to accomplish with a bet, but also if I should want to accomplish this. |
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10-27-2005 10:05 AM
#41
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10-27-2005 10:13 AM
#42
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10-27-2005 11:10 AM
#43
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I think this is a leak in my game... I would probably make a continuation bet here also. However, after weighing the issue I think that it's the wrong play. |
10-27-2005 02:32 PM
#44
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Ok, you are right gabe. I think you've helped plugged a (very) small leak in my game. | |
10-27-2005 03:35 PM
#45
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I am adding this to the FAQ thread, its a damn good discussion and ... its just pretty damn sexy. |
10-27-2005 05:58 PM
#46
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yeah i agree vqchang this is one of ftr's best |
10-27-2005 06:11 PM
#47
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The limit folks have been well aware of way ahead/behind for quite some time now... | |
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10-28-2005 05:11 AM
#48
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I just had a hand very much like this where I had KK, raised preflop, was called by the BB, and checked to on the A high flop. Alas, I hadn't read this thread yet and I made a 2/3 pot continuation bet and was called. I thought, "how the heck do I play this hand?" and was gonna post it until I remembered I hadn't read this thread yet (stupid me). Pretty good that your post addressed my exact question, thanks Gabe. Good move to put this in the FAQs. | |
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10-28-2005 12:35 PM
#49
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10-28-2005 12:44 PM
#50
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Interesting Thread. | |
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10-30-2005 02:51 AM
#51
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i fail to understand the argument that "if you bet and the other guy folds, you don't win anything." | |
10-30-2005 03:03 AM
#52
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10-31-2005 12:31 PM
#53
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Hi everyone, |
11-10-2005 07:02 PM
#54
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Re: KK with an ace!
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11-10-2005 07:16 PM
#55
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I've also seen situations like this come up in the WSOP. Someone raises preflop with KK.. this will be hero, somebody calls them from the blinds or limp/called them from early position.. this will be villain. | |
11-10-2005 10:37 PM
#56
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11-10-2005 10:59 PM
#57
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Re: KK with an ace!
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11-10-2005 11:17 PM
#58
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I don't think any play is clearly correct. If you check here you will most likely face a bet on the turn and river, and you won't know if you're ahead or not. If you bet here you will knew whether or not you're ahead or behind, that's an argument for betting. There is almost no way you're going to fold a bet on the turn after he checked the flop, so why wouldn't you bet here to find out where you are in the hand? If he calls or raises you're done with the hand. If he folds, that's not a bad result either. The bottom line, is that if you check here you're most likely going to face a bet on the turn when you are unsure if he has an ace. | |
11-10-2005 11:51 PM
#59
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Re: KK with an ace!
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11-10-2005 11:51 PM
#60
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when the pot is big, its better to bet...right? | |
11-11-2005 12:05 AM
#61
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The way I see it, the only way you'll know if you're beat here is by continuation betting. |
11-11-2005 01:59 AM
#62
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11-11-2005 02:58 AM
#63
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Gabe for President! | |
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11-11-2005 01:31 PM
#64
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11-11-2005 02:50 PM
#65
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i dont mind a guessing game. i like winning chips in the long run. | |
11-11-2005 06:39 PM
#66
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Awesome thread. I want to have your Gabies!! |
11-11-2005 07:24 PM
#67
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do you have the required anatomy? even if you don't i guess we could work something out.. | |
11-11-2005 07:43 PM
#68
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y'all are just nasty now. No more prison talk, pls.... | |
11-11-2005 07:47 PM
#69
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02-08-2006 04:01 PM
#70
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BUMP! Cause it's the the thread of 2005. | |
02-09-2006 04:53 PM
#71
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i'd bet it...Value bet here, 1/2-3/4 pot... |
02-09-2006 04:54 PM
#72
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02-09-2006 05:30 PM
#73
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gregor, that way of playing is wrong | |
02-09-2006 06:36 PM
#74
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02-10-2006 07:11 AM
#75
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I just played two hands like this one and found that a smaller bet of 1/4-1/3 pot, trying to represent AA betting for value, worked nicely with both guys folding. | |