KK with an ace!

Originally Posted by Borax

I just played two hands like this one and found that a smaller bet of 1/4-1/3 pot, trying to represent AA betting for value, worked nicely with both guys folding.

gabe is saying that you don't want them to fold, you want to amass as much chips as possible. Someone with the A would bet the flop, so if you have KK you want them to catch-up or feel like they have the lead so that you can extract more chips.

{bump}

bump.

i just found this thread yesterday, and then i come accross this situation last night. no HH becasue im at work.

$25nl

i get KK in the CO. MP2 raises $1, 1 caller, i reraise to $4, MP2 calls, the caller folds.

flop comes out A82 rainbow.

MP2 checks, i check behind.

turn comes 5c, with 2 clubs on board.

MP2 bets $4. i call.

river comes 9s.

MP2 checks, i bet out $8, MP2 calls and shows JJ.

gg Gabe for making me $$$$.

What are those $ signs in front of your bet amounts?

How bout this play?

Full Tilt Poker Game #951221984: Table Colton - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:25:42 ET - 2006/08/30
Seat 1: JHarr1219 ($49.25)
Seat 2: hoyas77 ($63.80)
Seat 3: rakahukki ($88.05)
Seat 4: puhkawk ($48.75)
Seat 5: Dislexsik ($60.80)
Seat 6: Stupor_Mundi ($41.05)
Seat 7: jackryan25 ($168.35)
Seat 8: Aasgard ($20)
Seat 9: Hugh_Bris ($39.50)
jackryan25: gut
rakahukki posts the small blind of $0.25
puhkawk posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dislexsik [Qc Qd]
jackryan25: so it was a good bet
Dislexsik raises to $2
Stupor_Mundi: Too many hands to worry about.
Stupor_Mundi calls $2
jackryan25: yeah
jackryan25 raises to $3.50
Hugh_Bris folds
JHarr1219 folds
hoyas77 folds
rakahukki folds
puhkawk folds
Dislexsik raises to $12
Stupor_Mundi folds
jackryan25 calls $8.50
*** FLOP *** [9d Js Ah]
Dislexsik checks
jackryan25 bets $4
Dislexsik calls $4
*** TURN *** [9d Js Ah] [7c]
Dislexsik checks
jackryan25 checks
*** RIVER *** [9d Js Ah 7c] [Qh]
Dislexsik bets $20
jackryan25 raises to $40
Dislexsik raises to $44.80, and is all in
jackryan25 calls $4.80
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dislexsik shows [Qc Qd] (three of a kind, Queens)
Stupor_Mundi: I like folding 10 10... seriously.
jackryan25 mucks
Dislexsik wins the pot ($121.35) with three of a kind, Queens
Stupor_Mundi: lol.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $124.35 | Rake $3
Board: [9d Js Ah 7c Qh]
Seat 1: JHarr1219 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: hoyas77 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: rakahukki (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: puhkawk (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Dislexsik showed [Qc Qd] and won ($121.35) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 6: Stupor_Mundi folded before the Flop
Seat 7: jackryan25 mucked [Ad Ks] - a pair of Aces
Seat 8: Aasgard is sitting out
Seat 9: Hugh_Bris didn't bet (folded)

Information:

* SnG
* First hand
* Show of strength then check (weakness?)

Possibilities:

Ax
PP
Junk.

The idea is to win the SnG, and you can either make a move with the kings to gain some chips so that you can relax or smart play the very first hand when it really might not mean anything in the long run.

Options:

Check - Free card given which means that op could catch trips or a potential draw if he doesn't have aces.

Raise to take down a pot - 2/3 to pot size bet to find out where you are.

Raise to induce action - 1/3 sized bet.

If op:

* I have AA, got a solid hold on the hand and want action.
* I have QQ-TT (depending on player) and am scared of the ace.
* I have pp/junk and will fold/call a bet.
* I have a set other than aces

What happens if:

Bet - op folds and you win pot (good thing), calls (we still don't know where we are) or reraises (Ax most likely).

Check - Op likely bets turn to win pot and we have to decide if it's a move or aces making a staggered attack (betting the street after hitting trips).

But what about the runner-runner situation which could happen? Plenty of people can attack with an OESD or a flush draw on the turn. To me this is just a pure judgement call and down to each person's way of playing.

Personally I probably would 2/3/small bet here in a ring game just to find out where I am. As far as it being a SnG, I would most likely bet simply because of my aggressive play. If I'm reraised or called then I can decide how I wish to react.

How does being OOP affect the situation?

pushing is an art

bump

BUMP AGAIN!!!

Tai mentioned this thread in another post but there is so much good information here that I felt it could use its own space.

If you have just scanned down here then go back up and at least read every one of Gabe's posts. There is some awesome stuff here.

Bump

Wow, great thread!

One of the best threads on FTR. If reading this doesnt make you money you obviously need to read it again.

This thread is one of my all-time favs.

yay i did something good

Originally Posted by loanhorse

I think the reason GABE posted this was to show that he thinks betting the flop is -EV in the longrun. Yet, you have to see where your at Gabe, giving an opponent a free card is against all poker rules. I REPEAT DONT GIVE YOUR OPPONENTS ANY FREE CARDS. See where you stand with a bet, its not like your commited if he check raises or check calls. If you decide to just check the hand, you have not defined your strong hand or repped the ace. Therefore your opponent will attack the pot when he sees your weakness and you will not know where you clearly stand.

btw one more thing there is key information missing from your post such as buyin, blah blah. Like if this was a 5.50 sng you might just push first hand because people will not give you credit for a hand, they'd think your some crazy maniac.

gabe you have such power, to believe you turned this potential-less n00b into a solid high stakes cash game reg!

Wow this was an amazing thread to read through. Funny thing is it took me reading through 3/4 of the thread before my very dim lightbulb lite up. As I write this I'm thinking this may have been one of the best learning moments for me. I know I have posted very similiar hands in IRC and received very similiar feedback but for some reason it just did not sink in.
Thank you Gabe and all who posted in this thread, even those who did not get it cuz they still helped me get it!

i understand most of this thread and agree that checking is the best course of action however i dont understand why pushing is correct when there is a large pot?

I like this post. Before I read it, I would have bet 3/4 of the pot.

Now I'm not so sure.

But I think AXs may fold to a bet on the flop, which might swing the pendulem the other way.

In fact, that said, I will bet this flop every time. ATs & worse will sometimes call your preflop raise, especially at low steaks. I want his chips when he folds to my raise. So there you have it....represent, represent.

Originally Posted by DanAronG

But I think AXs may fold to a bet on the flop, which might swing the pendulem the other way.

In fact, that said, I will bet this flop every time. ATs & worse will sometimes call your preflop raise, especially at low steaks. I want his chips when he folds to my raise. So there you have it....represent, represent.

Dude, at a low buyin SNG, Ax never ever ever folds here. The key to understanding this hand is thinking about what hands will call and what hands will fold if you bet here (hint: only hands you beat will fold and only hands that beat you will call).

i get the concept. But I think week aces that had no business calling in the first place, yet do surprisingly often, will sometimes fold here.

theres no reason at all to place a bet out there because it could be setting him up, to come over the top. only the terrible hands will fold in which case you'll win anyway unless he catches a lower set on the turn or river.
I would just check it down and if he placed a smaller bet on the turn and river pending on the size of it id call to see what he was playing.

Originally Posted by DanAronG

i get the concept. But I think week aces that had no business calling in the first place, yet do surprisingly often, will sometimes fold here.

How often would you say you have folded people off of weak aces with one bet on a Ax flop? How have you collected this data?

if someone is so bad at poker they are calling pre with Ax then giving up on an Ax flop to a cbet then you can and will get their chips some other time.

Rather than think about specific hands think about the range they can have and how we make the most money against it.

So what is the conclusion here? c/c down the river or c/f. As far as I understand from the replies, it is c/c, right?

Originally Posted by Extremophile

So what is the conclusion here? c/c down the river or c/f. As far as I understand from the replies, it is c/c, right?

Yes, that is the consensus opinion, check behind on the flop.

Originally Posted by taipan168

Originally Posted by Extremophile

So what is the conclusion here? c/c down the river or c/f. As far as I understand from the replies, it is c/c, right?

Yes, that is the consensus opinion, check behind on the flop.

thank you!

So, I know you guys will say it is case dependent but, how much of a bet is advisable to check-call, on flop, on turn, on river? well lets say for this specific case..

first time I've read through this thread, definetly going to plug a leak for me, so thanks to everyone who posted, but I still have two questions:

1. Why is betting better into a big pot?
2. This applies to fr cash games too, correct?

FWIW I like to check behind on A93 rainbow flop with AK as well (if it's HU on the flop). If you're preflop raiser, villain will generally expect you to fire your whole range in position on the flop.

But if you check behind, they instantly put you on a JJ-KK type hand, you give them the chance to bluff the turn with TT+, and AJ is going to play like the immortal nuts.

I will bet ( 2-3 BB) If you afraid of this ace he can be afraid too, You imagine only he had ace but if he made a tree of kinds or 2 pairs you in trouble too - for this pot control is best way to try play this hand. This is my opinion.

first hand sng he could have anything plus u shouldnt call if u dont plan on going all in because u know that a pair of kings are ace magnets plus i wouldnt fold them on the first hand what u can do is not raise with them and if u see an ace on the flop since its the first hand and just check it threw. late in the game i wouldnt go all in with kings also just cause any donk with a ace calls u dont win

Bump, great thread, definitely cleared up my thinking about this spot.

damn this thread is almost 5 years old. its perhaps my biggest accomplishment

Originally Posted by gabe

damn this thread is almost 5 years old. its perhaps my biggest accomplishment

I doubt that

The thing is the AA has got you beat on a check-bet I would not bet

bump because of current KK on A-high board threads, this thread was really important in the earlier days of FTR and should probably be stickied.

Originally Posted by baudib

bump because of current KK on A-high board threads, this thread was really important in the earlier days of FTR and should probably be stickied.

i really agree this was one of the most helpful threads i have read,

... but this example is on a dry board where its never ok to bet, on the other KK, A high thread, the board is wet and there's an argument for a vbet because villain could call with lots of draws, although i still believe checking back is better.

I laugh so hard every time I read this thread. It really shows how much the game has changed and how much better everyone has gotten at poker.