KK with an ace!

first hand of a sng, someone triples the blind UTG, folded around to the button where you reraise to 9x with KK. the blinds folds and UTG calls. the flopes comes Ad9s3h and villian checks.

betting this flop is incorrect.

discuss.

Well since he calls the 9XBB bet he would probably have, AA, KK, QQ, or AK, AQ(questionable)

The way I see it he would have you beat more than half the time and is looking to check-raise here. But if he had AA I think he would push all-in into the 9xBB raise or push it higher.

So he checks to you, you are probably beat, check hope the rivers a K and hope he aint holding the rockets.

beacuse you're beat and AA would check-raise or check-call here.

I think you're both way off.

You only get worse hands to fold and better hands to call. Taking a free card probably wont let worse hands catch up to you but you are giving op another street to define his hand. Plus thinking nits love to put YOU on AA here.

-'rilla

its the first level of a sng, this person doesn't necessarily have one of these hands.

what if the person open raises from the CO? their hands widen somewhat, but it is still incorrect to bet.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Plus thinking nits love to put YOU on AA here.

Hence the reason I said not to bet. AA would check here. If op bets into me here on the flop, I often smooth-call and raise the turn bet if I think I can push him off. Your reraise preflop reps rockets and you should continue on that path.

If someone in the CO does the same, I'm not sure I act differently because they're calling the pre-flop reraise. I need to have a existing read on someone to assume that they're calling a preflop reraise with junk. What am I missing?

From the mind of an evil noob...I wouldn't get stupid here b/c it's so early and even your 9x raise is only 90 chips, which really ain't shit compared to the enormous amount you lose when you start getting cute here. I'd check it down and hope for a K on fourth street.

I would bet 100$ & see what he does. First hand is always crazy, he could just as easy have 22. Fold to any aggresion. I would bet he folds after that flop.

Originally Posted by brian1175

I would bet 100$ & see what he does. First hand is always crazy, he could just as easy have 22. Fold to any aggresion. I would bet he folds after that flop.

betting is bad here. why bet??

wouldn't the buy-in be pretty integral to answering this question?

honestly i wouldnt check this after the flop cause alot of people in early stages of the tournament call any raise with pocket pairs or even kq kj j10 or any ace x. i would bet the flop double what u bet preflop hoping he doesnt have big slick Aq or Aj or Ax. if he reraises you then i would fold if he calls then you have to be careful he might have a small pocket pair and fold but i wouldnt check after the flop with the kings and let him steal the pot with a small pair or some other bullshit like qj or kq or kj or j10.i feel checking the flop after a big preflop raise shows your weakness. to many times i threw down the best hand to a smaller pocket pair. this may seem dumb but it always works out best for me when i have pocket k's with an ace on board if he has the ace trust me he will let you know he has the ace after your flop bet. like i said i read in plent y of books with pocket k's with an ace on board is to bet the flop to see where you stand if he calls or reraises you then be prepared to check after the turn which he may also check to give the free card on the river. thats just my info it might not be the smartest move but it still can help to see where your at with your k's. so what im trying to say is to bet big preflop then to check the flop to me shows weakness and alot of times the guy can steal the pot from you. sorry about my rambling

{This post has been removed}

better hands call you, worse hands fold, the only way you make money from worse hands is by catching bluffs, which you don't do by betting.

I usually throw out a continuation bet of 1/2 pot and and see how opp reacts. If called or raised, I slow way down or fold. But to check and give a free card is bad imho, unless you plan on betting the turn. You can't check-raise the turn cuz you have position....

betting costs you money. what free card are you scared of? you have the same chance of hitting your two outer (if that is what you are worried about), which means you can make more from the person if they have an ace.

Originally Posted by gabe

betting costs you money. what free card are you scared of? you have the same chance of hitting your two outer (if that is what you are worried about), which means you can make more from the person if they have an ace.

i swear iv read this in a book somewhere...
cant quite remmeber where tho but its a great thread gabe.

Gabe, I understand where you are coming from. Your strat is perfect for river play. But this is just the flop. What happens when you check and he pots the turn? You are right about worse hands folding, but giving free cards with the best hand isn't great either. In addition to maximizing my winnings, I want to minimize my losses. I think villian either has the A or a smaller pp. A half pot bet may help me find out where I stand and discourage a bluff attempt to make me fold the better hand. As to what is the most profitable...... hard to say, but without trips, do you really want to play a big pot here?

What happens when he 3/4s the turn gabe?

Originally Posted by MAX

Gabe, I understand where you are coming from. Your strat is perfect for river play. But this is just the flop. What happens when you check and he pots the turn? You are right about worse hands folding, but giving free cards with the best hand isn't great either. In addition to maximizing my winnings, I want to minimize my losses. I think villian either has the A or a smaller pp. A half pot bet may help me find out where I stand and discourage a bluff attempt to make me fold the better hand. As to what is the most profitable...... hard to say, but without trips, do you really want to play a big pot here?

a bet on the flop loses money in the long run. i think you see why, but you didnt say it.

Originally Posted by vqc

What happens when he 3/4s the turn gabe?

depends on opponent. most of the time its call, fold to another bet on the river, or call and check behind river. most people wont bet twice without an ace because they are scared of you slowplaying AA AK.

This sounds like good advice if the opponent is a thinking player, but what if he's the type of player who will call you down all the way to the river with any pair and any draw?

I've always been a big fan of defining my hand strength. I can't see how you can do that by checking the flop. Although there are arguments for checking the flop, I'd rather bet. If you bet half the pot, there are three things that can happen. A) he comes over the top, and you know you're behind (especially since it's the first hand). B) he folds, and you move on to the next hand. C) he calls. Now I would be very suspicious. If he checks the turn, I check behind, and depending on the size of the river bet, I call. If he bets the turn, I'd probably lay it down.

The problem with not betting the flop is, what do you do when he bets the turn? If you call the turn, then you'd have to call the river, because it's unlikely he improved his hand.

The thinking that "better hands call and worse hands fold" gives a lot of credit to your opponent. I wouldn't rule out the person folding a hand like A5s or calling with qq - tt, t9s.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

I think the reason GABE posted this was to show that he thinks betting the flop is -EV in the longrun. Yet, you have to see where your at Gabe, giving an opponent a free card is against all poker rules. I REPEAT DONT GIVE YOUR OPPONENTS ANY FREE CARDS. See where you stand with a bet, its not like your commited if he check raises or check calls. If you decide to just check the hand, you have not defined your strong hand or repped the ace. Therefore your opponent will attack the pot when he sees your weakness and you will not know where you clearly stand.

btw one more thing there is key information missing from your post such as buyin, blah blah. Like if this was a 5.50 sng you might just push first hand because people will not give you credit for a hand, they'd think your some crazy maniac.



-Loanhorse'

------------------------------------------------------

Xianti: Are you friends with loanhorse?

Triptanes: No, he lives in Washington while I live in Texas. I admit he can be retarded.

One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV.

One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV.

EXACTLY. I will never check this flop. EVER.

I'm interested in just taking the pot down on the flop by repping the ace. If you feel very comfortable postflop its of course more +EV to check the flop and catch an occasional bluff on the turn or river. But if you are the kind of guy (like me), who wont feel comfortable calling a potsized bet on the turn from opp in EP when theres an ace on the flop - then I would say its more +EV to repp the ace on the flop.

ROBERT- checking the flop and calling the pot on the turn costs about the same as repping the A on the flop and gets you an extra card to improve by getting you to the river.

Gabe's line may make us uncomfortable, but it may still get us the most when we win and lose less when we are beat.

LETS SAY-
If opp. has the A then he will raise the turn and probably raise the river. We will call the turn and fold the river- losing a total of 1 call(pot or whatever) - which is the least we lose when we raise it ourselves and gives us 1 less card to chase our K.

If opp. doesn't have the A, he will still take a shot at some point if we keep checking, but is unlikely to again after being called once. So in this scenario we win 1 extra bet (pot or whatever) by check/calling than if we took it down at the flop.

If he never takes a shot, we get a cheap showdown which is good- especially on THE FIRST HAND OF AN SNG<--- don't forget this

If you give him free cards, he probably is drawing to a 2 outer or needs runner-runner. Either way, you will basically only lose the extra bet+pot you didn't protect when he hits because you aren't calling any more than that. The times you hit your trips balance this out due to the potential to double up (which you are not offering him unless he holds 1 hand [AA] and you hit your trips), not to mention the extra bet you pick up when he takes a stab.

If you take this line, someone will have to be willing to put in 2x the 150 pot on the first hand of the SNG to outplay you and I usually like to play with that type of player anyways.

After all that, i think an argument may still be made to try to take it down due to it being the 1st hand and the chips lost costing more than the chips won. But the cheapest showdown may come from checking the flop so I like Gabe's line the best.

Food for thought: Gabe, KK is almost the same as having Ax because either your opp. has a better A or he doesn't. So, do you check that flop and play it the same with Ax--- I know you wouldn't be in that situation with Ax but is there a diff. btwn Ax and KK there?

Originally Posted by mcatdog

This sounds like good advice if the opponent is a thinking player, but what if he's the type of player who will call you down all the way to the river with any pair and any draw?

what draw is there on the flop? also, even fish know when to fold to bets on ace high flops, unless they have the ace.

Originally Posted by stranglin

I've always been a big fan of defining my hand strength. I can't see how you can do that by checking the flop. Although there are arguments for checking the flop, I'd rather bet.

if you are fine with losing chips, go ahead and "define your hand strength."

Originally Posted by stranglin

One other thing I forgot to mention. Gabe, you may be absolutely correct that betting can be -EV. However, what is the EV of folding the turn? What is the EV of calling on the turn and river? I would have to believe that betting the flop has greater EV than calling turn and river, regardless of whether betting the flop is -EV.

already said:

Originally Posted by gabe

"depends on opponent. most of the time its call, fold to another bet on the river, or call and check behind river. most people wont bet twice without an ace because they are scared of you slowplaying AA AK."

loanhorse.

Originally Posted by Robert

I'm interested in just taking the pot down on the flop by repping the ace.

we all want to take down pots, but betting here is leaking chips.

YES we all want to take down pots, but betting here is leaking chips.

Yep we all want to take down pots! YET GABE... Betting here is not leaking chips its called representing the ace to define your hand. I would not criticize anyone who choose to do this. Yes, its scary repping the flop knowing if he chooses to call or reraise your beat but that way you keep things simple. Dont try to make plays that will get you into complicated situations unless your confident in your abilities.


-------------------

2+2=4
F+T+R= Flop Turn River
L+H= Loanhorse

Originally Posted by loanhorse

Yeah, we all want to take down pots, but betting here is not leaking chips its called representing the ace to see where your at.

whats the point of this?

loanhorse wrote:
Yeah, we all want to take down pots, but betting here is not leaking chips its called representing the ace to see where your at.

whats the point of this?

Sorry, If i lost you. Betting here is not a horrible decision since your betting and representing the ace. IN other words, your acting like you have an ace and our making a value bet. The purpose of the bet is to define your hand and you know if he chooses to call or reraise you have a CLEAR decision to see if your beat. Hope this helps!

LOANHORSE

so you represent the ace, and anyone with an ace calls, and anyone without an ace folds. that seems like it will cost you money.

you make a convincing argument gabe.

so you represent the ace, and anyone with an ace calls, and anyone without an ace folds. that seems like it will cost you money.

So you check and your opponent gets a free card that helps his hand. UM GABE...That seems like it will cost you money.

I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn.

And if you are first to act?

Originally Posted by baudib

I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn.

that is exactly the point!

You DON'T want to make a continuation bet because you WANT that JJ to throw a bet at you on the turn, in which case you call it.

Lets say you get what you want, and the JJ folds. Then you lost the bet he would have made. Whereas if you bet, an ace will not fold. It's important that villain called a big raise, because that means he's probably not holding 9h 10h or a hand that has a realistic chance of outdrawing you.

If on the turn he checks should hero check behind and bet/call the river, or bet the turn? I lean towards checking behind.

This situation reminds me of draw poker, a game i've been playing lots of lately. Lets say UTG calls, it's folded to me in SB and I raise with 2-pair 5544J, the BB folds, UTG calls. He takes one, I take one. This situation is as clearly a check call as you will ever get. For the same reason; i can beat a bluff and not much else.

After he checked the flop, he has one of the following: 1) A-high or AA, and is hoping to trap/check raise, 2) a pp lower than yours, 3) A-x suited, or 4) KQ or something retarded and missed completely. If you make a probe bet, you can see where you stand, and play out the rest of the hand with that knowledge. If he reraises, you're done with the hand. If he flat calls, I would put him on Ax, but with the added incentive of probably having it checked down to the river. PP or worse fold (u win the pot, inless he's a moron and u get his chips). If you DONT bet, he WILL bet the turn. If he has QQ or JJ, thats all fine and good. But if he has Ax, you are losing money. And can you call big bets on the turn and river here? (which is how QQ should play this against you). This is also avoiding the fact that by checking u are giving free cards. What happens when 77 catches his set on the turn? How far can you go with this hand blind with no information? Its early, I personally would like to see where I am in the hand, esp with no reads. just my 2 cents.

I am betting 3/4 of the pot here. I have a strong hand but I need information, and the only way to get it is a pot-sized bet or thereabouts.

I think Gabe's point is that you don't need information to play the hand, and as such, a bet is a waste. You make more when you're ahead if you don't bet (because of a worse hand bluffing instead of folding). Assuming you are going to call opp's turn bet, and this bet will be comparable in size to the one you were going to make, you're losing the same if you're behind (assuming you fold to another bet on the river and that only a hand that can beat you will bet the river).

It's that last point that makes me unsure. If I see it go check-check, check-call, I might bet the river with any two. It's harder to bet into aggression from a flop bet (while not holding a hand). You also are going to lose to the random Ax hands here, which likely would have folded on the flop. Despite these drawbacks, I think it may indeed be stronger to play this line than to bet, especially since by calling your reraise preflop, opp has demonstrated that if he does hold Ax, he's likely to call with it postflop, since he's a donk.

Related question: same scenario, but you were the EP raiser, and your opp just called your first (5x) preflop raise. Here I think you have to bet and define your hand, because you don't have position, meaning you're going to give your opponent more chances to make a play.

Very good thread. Thought provoking to say the least. I never would have considered playing KK like that with an A on the board, but I never would have thought about it in quite this way before. I guess now I will not only have to ask myself what I want to accomplish with a bet, but also if I should want to accomplish this.
I would assume that if opp leads out on both the flop and the turn, you have to assume you are beat and fold though.

Originally Posted by pgil

I would assume that if opp leads out on both the flop and the turn, you have to assume you are beat and fold though.

I'd probably fold to just the flop bet unless I had strong reads (presumably from notes since it's early in the SnG). You showed a good amount of strength preflop. For him to decide he's better than you post-flop, usually he has some sort of a hand that will beat you. Calling this raise is burning chips.

Originally Posted by baudib

I make a continuation bet because if you check, JJ is going to throw a bet at you on the turn.

salsa4ever did a good job of handling this one.

Originally Posted by arkana

And if you are first to act?

thats for an entirely different thread...

Originally Posted by GixMage

After he checked the flop, he has one of the following: 1) A-high or AA, and is hoping to trap/check raise, 2) a pp lower than yours, 3) A-x suited, or 4) KQ or something retarded and missed completely. If you make a probe bet, you can see where you stand, and play out the rest of the hand with that knowledge. If he reraises, you're done with the hand. If he flat calls, I would put him on Ax, but with the added incentive of probably having it checked down to the river. PP or worse fold (u win the pot, inless he's a moron and u get his chips). If you DONT bet, he WILL bet the turn. If he has QQ or JJ, thats all fine and good. But if he has Ax, you are losing money. And can you call big bets on the turn and river here? (which is how QQ should play this against you). This is also avoiding the fact that by checking u are giving free cards. What happens when 77 catches his set on the turn? How far can you go with this hand blind with no information? Its early, I personally would like to see where I am in the hand, esp with no reads. just my 2 cents.

everything here has already been brought up i think.

Originally Posted by biondino

I am betting 3/4 of the pot here. I have a strong hand but I need information, and the only way to get it is a pot-sized bet or thereabouts.

why do you people want so much information? you are way ahead or way behind, betting is not how to handle the situation.

Originally Posted by pgil

Very good thread. Thought provoking to say the least. I never would have considered playing KK like that with an A on the board, but I never would have thought about it in quite this way before. I guess now I will not only have to ask myself what I want to accomplish with a bet, but also if I should want to accomplish this.
I would assume that if opp leads out on both the flop and the turn, you have to assume you are beat and fold though.

glad you enjoyed it!

I think this is a leak in my game... I would probably make a continuation bet here also. However, after weighing the issue I think that it's the wrong play.

Lets look at it from the perspective of someone holding an Ace.

I limp in with something like AJs. You make a decent raise in late position. I call and the flop comes Axx. You make a 1/2 pot sized continuation bet as was suggested above. What have you told me? Have you 'repped' an A? No, you pretty much just announced that you have a pocket pair lower than an Ace. So I call to keep you in the hand.

Even if you make a 3/4 pot sized bet someone might pick you off with a decent Ace. You may be giving more information than you end up getting here. The only hands to fold are worse hands that you want to keep in the pot.

I read the arguments but I agree with Gabe.

Ok, you are right gabe. I think you've helped plugged a (very) small leak in my game.

Good thread sir!

I am adding this to the FAQ thread, its a damn good discussion and ... its just pretty damn sexy.

NH SIR NH!

yeah i agree vqchang this is one of ftr's best

The limit folks have been well aware of way ahead/behind for quite some time now...

How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.

I just had a hand very much like this where I had KK, raised preflop, was called by the BB, and checked to on the A high flop. Alas, I hadn't read this thread yet and I made a 2/3 pot continuation bet and was called. I thought, "how the heck do I play this hand?" and was gonna post it until I remembered I hadn't read this thread yet (stupid me). Pretty good that your post addressed my exact question, thanks Gabe. Good move to put this in the FAQs.

Originally Posted by Fnord

How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.

Is it that overcards can't come and kill you? With QQ/JJ you could be way-ahead but fall way-behind on the next card... so you're almost forced to bet something. With KK you're going to stay ahead if you are right now.

Interesting Thread.

This is part of my game that i'm working on, every action check, bet, raise or fold has to be thought through - why you are doing this action? what do you hope to accomplish?

In this situation as Gabe has already said you are either a huge favourite or a big underdog,

If you are the huge favourite and lead out on the flop your opponent will more than likely fold - this can't be good as you have made the worst hand fold when you should be trying to get him to bet into you. So a check would be the correct play.

If you are the big underdog and leading out on the flop you are likely to be check raised and will fold, now your opponent might just call you giving you a small chance to hit a King on the turn but you have still had to put in a 1/2, 3/4 or 1/1 pot bet - this is quite clearly a losing play - So you should check and you might hit your King for free.

Hope this makes sense

Great post Gabe

i fail to understand the argument that "if you bet and the other guy folds, you don't win anything."

there's 18+ BB in the pot, which is a hell of a lot more than nothing. if my opponent folds, i'm happy to take it down. if he calls, i'll slow down, and if he c/r's, i'll consider folding. i think he folds more than 50% of the time.

giving the free card is just plain wrong imho.

ChezJ

Originally Posted by ChezJ

i fail to understand the argument that "if you bet and the other guy folds, you don't win anything."

there's 18+ BB in the pot, which is a hell of a lot more than nothing. if my opponent folds, i'm happy to take it down. if he calls, i'll slow down, and if he c/r's, i'll consider folding. i think he folds more than 50% of the time.

giving the free card is just plain wrong imho.

ChezJ

I think the point is that if you're ahead, there's not a lot that can happen to put you behind, but if you're behind, it costs you to bet (unless you go in to check/fold mode). Even if you do go into check/fold mode, you end up getting one less card for improvement the times you are behind (a small percentage of the time, he checkraises here and you drop it when you'd have hit your K on the turn).

Checking behind here offers twice the chance for improvement if you're behind, risks little for a weaker hand to improve beyond you, and makes you money when people bluff the turn.

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum. I've just read through this very interesting thread and it immediately reminded me of a similar hand in Volume II of 'Harrington On Holdem'. The hand is on page 320 (Hand 11-7), and whoever the Kings belonged to obviously understood the correct way to play this hand - thanks for bringing it up Gabe.

Lee

Originally Posted by gabe

first hand of a sng, someone triples the blind UTG, folded around to the button where you reraise to 9x with KK. the blinds folds and UTG calls. the flopes comes Ad9s3h and villian checks.

betting this flop is incorrect.

discuss.

I know I'm a bit late in this thread, but it seemed like a good one, so I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in..

The preflop action, the flop, position, and hole cards have much more to do with this hand then the fact that it's the first hand of an SNG.

Let's assume that if hero bets here, all better hands.. Ax being the most likely, will call or raise here. Worse hands, such as QQ, JJ, even a very horribly played KQ or something will LIKELY throw a bet out on the turn.. comparable to what hero would have made on the flop if he c-bet it. Hands that have hero beat here will also make this bet. However, a hand can still very easily be the best hand here, but betting the flop makes better hands call/raise and worse hands fold. Examples of this don't come much clearer then in this situation, which is why I think gabe detailed the situation the way he did.

I've also read people saying to bet this flop to not give free cards. I think people read/hear this so much and they preach it but don't actually understand it. If I remember correctly, the board was A93 rainbow. Villain is drawing to 2 outs at best and running cards at worst. This isn't really a concern. The biggest scare cards here are a Q and a J.

For arguments sake.. this is about as close to this as you will find: If you are in a situation where all better hands call, and all worse hands fold.. and have little to no chance to improve to make the best hand, what is the value of betting? There is none. Checking here induces a bluff from a hand like QQ or JJ on the turn.

I've also seen situations like this come up in the WSOP. Someone raises preflop with KK.. this will be hero, somebody calls them from the blinds or limp/called them from early position.. this will be villain.

Flop comes down A high, but other then that, it's a pretty friendly board.
Villain checks.
Hero moves all-in.
Villain "thinks" about it and folds. The hand isn't important here but it does not beat KK, or else he would have called.

I shake my head and *sigh* when I see a move like this. It's just not good poker.. whether it be a $1 SnG, the WSOP, or a cash game. I think to myself, doesn't he realize that if he is beat, which is likely, that he loses the maximum amount of chips possible here? If he is ahead, also likely, he wins the least amount of chips possible.

If he checks and is beat, he stands to lose the least amount of chips possible, or something comparable to what he would have bet on the turn anyway, and likely gets to see an extra card on the river for free. If he is ahead and checks, he stands to win as many chips as possible.

If somebody can come up with a legitimite argument as to why betting is better here, I'd love to hear it.

Originally Posted by Lukie

I've also seen situations like this come up in the WSOP. Someone raises preflop with KK.. this will be hero, somebody calls them from the blinds or limp/called them from early position.. this will be villain.

Flop comes down A high, but other then that, it's a pretty friendly board.
Villain checks.
Hero moves all-in.
Villain "thinks" about it and folds. The hand isn't important here but it does not beat KK, or else he would have called.

I shake my head and *sigh* when I see a move like this. It's just not good poker.

when the pot is big, sometimes betting is the correct move. freecards are very bad in big pots.

Originally Posted by gabe

betting this flop is incorrect.

discuss.

Question, how would you play this hand if you had AK?

I don't think any play is clearly correct. If you check here you will most likely face a bet on the turn and river, and you won't know if you're ahead or not. If you bet here you will knew whether or not you're ahead or behind, that's an argument for betting. There is almost no way you're going to fold a bet on the turn after he checked the flop, so why wouldn't you bet here to find out where you are in the hand? If he calls or raises you're done with the hand. If he folds, that's not a bad result either. The bottom line, is that if you check here you're most likely going to face a bet on the turn when you are unsure if he has an ace.

Originally Posted by Scuba Chuck

Originally Posted by gabe

betting this flop is incorrect.

discuss.

Question, how would you play this hand if you had AK?

with the same preflop action?

in general, i bet half pot on flop, check turn, call river bet or make a valuebet.

when the pot is big, its better to bet...right?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t790)
Hero (t775)
SB (t783)
BB (t1022)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t715)
UTG+2 (t715)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
UTG calls t15, 2 folds, MP1 raises to t50, 1 fold, MP3 calls t50, 1 fold, Hero raises to t200, SB calls t190, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t150.

Flop: (t677.50) A, J, Q (3 players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero allin [t575]

The way I see it, the only way you'll know if you're beat here is by continuation betting.

If you check... opp will probably bet the turn with any hand trying to take down the pot... So you smooth call and hope he checks the river afraid of your preflop aggression and the ace on the board?

By the river he might have made 2 pair or a straight, or even might still be slowplaying AK if thats what he was doing from the start. By just checking and then calling his bets here you're getting zero information and then paying off his subsequent bets *hoping* your hand is best.

I think it would be more +EV to simply bet here and see if you're called/raised... If you're raised he clearly has you beat and you fold.... if you're called you still get to see the turn, which may give you your set, and then he may even check the turn just to try to induce another bet out of you, which gives you a free river card to look at.

So if he calls you see 5 cards for the price of your continuation bet in an amount that you'll decide, with the possiblity of taking down the 9x pfr'd pot right there.

And if he raises or folds, you either win/lose it right there, without having to risk any additional chips.

If he smooth calls and then decides to bet the turn out of position you're probably beat too... So either way its only costing your continuation bet to find out.

Originally Posted by Werddown

The way I see it, the only way you'll know if you're beat here is by continuation betting.

did you read the thread?

Gabe for President!

I like your thinking here, as usual. If he has 2 outs giving free cards shouldnt be a problem, given the action he shouldnt have 5 outs. This KK situation has been somewhat a leak for me but it may have been plugged now.

This thread just shows how mechanical people tend to think, "I like to define my hand" etc. I have had discussions like this in the SH forum as well considering river play, do not bet when only worse hands fold and better ones call! it is a sucker play, also you have to give them a chance to bluff. hmm, I just started to ramble again. nhggthxsirgabe

Originally Posted by Pingviini

Gabe for President!

I like your thinking here, as usual. If he has 2 outs giving free cards shouldnt be a problem, given the action he shouldnt have 5 outs. This KK situation has been somewhat a leak for me but it may have been plugged now.

This thread just shows how mechanical people tend to think, "I like to define my hand" etc. I have had discussions like this in the SH forum as well considering river play, do not bet when only worse hands fold and better ones call! it is a sucker play, also you have to give them a chance to bluff. hmm, I just started to ramble again. nhggthxsirgabe

But the point is that you're going to be playing a guessing game of whether or not they're bluffing. If they bet the turn do they have an under pair or do they have AK and their check on the flop was to try to get you to do their betting for them? And since it's this early, there's no need to get seriously involved here. If they bluff at it, you'll end up picking up like 90 extra chips. If you lose the hand at the showdown you'll be at an early disadvantage. If you bet here you save yourself from getting involved in a medium sized pot early on when you don't know if you're ahead or behind.

i dont mind a guessing game. i like winning chips in the long run.

Awesome thread. I want to have your Gabies!!

do you have the required anatomy? even if you don't i guess we could work something out..

y'all are just nasty now. No more prison talk, pls....

BUMP! Cause it's the the thread of 2005.

Also - someone can fork this off if they want, but do you bet if you are OOP? Or just call three times? (or fold river).

when the pot is big, its better to bet...right?

The "macro" rule is "When the pot is big, it's better to CALL" (vs. fold).

Also, speaking of "macro" rules... the rule is not "Don't give free cards" it's "Don't give free cards that are likely to beat you". With no draws out, then the best someone is drawing to is 5 outs (MP or BP), more likely 2. Plus since there is an A already out, you are no likely to lose your shirt at any time on this hand.

It gets tough when 1/3 of your stack is in pre-flop, and you face a big turn bet of like 1/2 your (remaining) stack.

i'd bet it...Value bet here, 1/2-3/4 pot...

Chances are he thinks you have a solid hand with an ace, he'll fold on the ace rag rag flop... If he calls, you know you are beat, and if he raises, you're also beat

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

at this point Id throw out a 1/2 pot teaser and find out where you stand. Remember that he just CALLED your reraise and the fact that you reraised 9X after his UTG raise he is probably thinking that YOU have the Ace...obviously if you get reraised on a 1/2 pot bet then cut your losses and muck it...but you have to find out where you stand here.....1/2 the pot is sending the message that you want a call and hit your Ace

didn't see this post, but it echoes my sentiments

gregor, that way of playing is wrong

Originally Posted by gabe

gregor, that way of playing is wrong

word son.

I just played two hands like this one and found that a smaller bet of 1/4-1/3 pot, trying to represent AA betting for value, worked nicely with both guys folding.