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How should I have played this hand?

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  1. #1

    Default How should I have played this hand?

    I’m very new to poker and eager to learn.

    Did I do anything right with this hand? What should I have done differently?

    About an hour into a single entry tournament I have $43k chips (we started with $30k), 50 ante and blinds are currently 200-400 with 7 at the table.

    I have pocket 8’s (spade & heart)
    Everyone folds except the dealer who calls. SB folds, I make it 1,800 and villain calls

    Flop: Ts Th 9s
    I bet 2,100 and villain calls

    Turn: Ad
    I bet 2,400 and he makes it 4,800 and I call

    River: 9h
    I check. He goes all in for $44k, I fold.
  2. #2
    Vinland's Avatar
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    Welcome to the horrors of being out of position
    Big thing you are missing in your post is any reads on your opponent. Is he tight, a maniac, passive, loose etc. did you ever see him showdown with something surprising? Has he shoved a lot and been uncalled? Etc.

    im not much for tournaments, but I think I fold to his turn raise. You bet preflop, the flop and the turn (on an ace scare card) and he doesn’t seem to care and raises.
    As played fold on river like you did. You are chopping at best.

    your preflop raise seems high. 1400-1600 seems plenty to me. You are out of position so I like 4x to just take the blinds now and move on. But with antes 1800 isn’t the worst
    Last edited by Vinland; 10-27-2022 at 11:05 AM.
  3. #3
    Pre flop and flop are fine. It's a big raise pre but ok. Flop, we can bet this because we expect to get called by worse pairs and ace high, as well as straight and flush draws.

    Turn ace is really bad. Many of his flush draws take the lead, his ace high floats are now good, I'd just check this turn and fold to a bet. When I bet I'm definitely folding to a raise, even a minraise. We could already be dead. In fact I suspect we are, his river jam looks a lot like AT (he beats other Tx full houses and wants to win the maximum).

    River is the world's easiest fold, you don't even have a hand, you literally play the board (two pair tens and nines, ace kicker). I'd be folding a nine here too and would be in a world of pain with just a ten.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    Vin we're never ever chopping this river, not when he jams. He'd have to be bluffing pure air. 88 is counterfeit, we're playing the board.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    Vinland's Avatar
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    I know he’s playing the board. That’s why chopping is the best case scenario which is unlikely I agree.


    c/f turn is probably the best line. Too much of his range beats us
  6. #6
    It's a weird turn, because the ace is better for our range than his. We hit this card more often. So it's a good card for us to rep. But when we bet, we can't reasonably expect better hands to fold, nor can we reasonably expect worse hands to call. So we can't value bet, nor can we bluff. Our best hope is for the turn to check through, then we can maybe check/call blank rivers to pick off any missed draws and king high floats he decides to bluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's a weird turn, because the ace is better for our range than his. We hit this card more often. So it's a good card for us to rep. But when we bet, we can't reasonably expect better hands to fold, nor can we reasonably expect worse hands to call. So we can't value bet, nor can we bluff. Our best hope is for the turn to check through, then we can maybe check/call blank rivers to pick off any missed draws and king high floats he decides to bluff.
    Let me remind you that I’m a beginner. But if you’re the dealer and I raised pre as BB, I bet on the flop then checked on the turn when an Ace came,
    ,
    Wouldn’t you almost automatically bet, thinking that I’ll fold because you have the ace or your represent the ace but either way I fold. And if that’s the case then aren’t I better making a bet on the turn to at least hope you fold if you don’t have the ace and maybe keep you from bluffing?

    I realize by typing this that I made such a big mistake calling his raise on the turn now too.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinland View Post
    Welcome to the horrors of being out of position
    Excellent statement. You’re right and I didn’t realize how out of position I was. That’s one thing I still don’t factor enough other than folding some pre flop hands early that id play late.

    As for your other question, which I didn’t include in the quote, I was recently moved to this table in the tournament so I didn’t have any read on this player I just knew the opponent had more money than me and had more than what we started with so clearly they won some heads but I didn’t know type of play.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pen22 View Post
    Let me remind you that I’m a beginner. But if you’re the dealer and I raised pre as BB, I bet on the flop then checked on the turn when an Ace came,
    ,
    Wouldn’t you almost automatically bet, thinking that I’ll fold because you have the ace or your represent the ace but either way I fold. And if that’s the case then aren’t I better making a bet on the turn to at least hope you fold if you don’t have the ace and maybe keep you from bluffing?

    I realize by typing this that I made such a big mistake calling his raise on the turn now too.
    You are right that when bet the flop, get called and then check the turn, you're inviting the button to bet. But take into account he's called the flop. What is he calling the flop with? The only hands we beat that he can call flop with and bluff on the turn are hands like QJ KJ and KQ. But these hands actually have a lot of equity against us. On the other hand, when he has a ten or an ace, we have very little equity.

    The way to make it difficult for him to exploit us is to have a balanced range. If we play AA and AK the same, if we bet the flop then check the turn with those hands too, it means we're not always folding when he bets. So he can't bluff so easily.

    We just have to accept that sometimes we're going to get bluffed. it's ok to fold the best hand sometimes. This might be one of those spots. The only way we're going to not get bluffed here is by making too many loose calls on the turn and river which will cost us more than we win in the long run. That's why sometimes we have to fold the best hand. You just have to accept that if he's bluffing, he picked the right time. Hopefully next time you'll have a better hand and can profitably pick off his bluffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    Betting when we don't want villain to bet is a common mistake new players make.

    There are two reasons to bet, only two... value and bluff. A value bet is when we are trying to make worse hands call (or raise). A bluff is when we are trying to make better hands fold. If neither of these apply, if your bet will not get worse hands to call (or raise) or better hands to fold, then don't bet.

    On flop we can expect worse hands to call. QJ KQ KJ are likely calling, along with ace high. So the flop bet is a value bet. It's thin value but it's fine. Maybe 22-77 calls a bet too.

    The turn bet might get called by QJ but KQ and KJ probably just fold now, and QJ really should fold too. All those 22-77 that are still in are now definitely folding. On the other hand, better hands aren't folding. He probably doesn't limp/call JJ but let's say he does... is he folding? Probably not. He's certainly calling anything that beats JJ. So there is no fold equity (the value of bluffing).

    The turn bet isn't a good value bet or a good bluff. So it's clearly not a good bet. You're making the bet because you're afraid of being bluffed. This is not a good reason to bet. Value or bluff are the only good reasons.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 10-28-2022 at 12:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Betting when we don't want villain to bet is a common mistake new players make.

    There are two reasons to bet, only two... value and bluff. A value bet is when we are trying to make worse hands call (or raise). A bluff is when we are trying to make better hands fold. If neither of these apply, if your bet will not get worse hands to call (or raise) or better hands to fold, then don't bet.

    On flop we can expect worse hands to call. QJ KQ KJ are likely calling, along with ace high. So the flop bet is a value bet. It's thin value but it's fine. Maybe 22-77 calls a bet too.

    The turn bet might get called by QJ but KQ and KJ probably just fold now, and QJ really should fold too. All those 22-77 that are still in are now definitely folding. On the other hand, better hands aren't folding. He probably doesn't limp/call JJ but let's say he does... is he folding? Probably not. He's certainly calling anything that beats JJ. So there is no fold equity (the value of bluffing).

    The turn bet isn't a good value bet or a good bluff. So it's clearly not a good bet. You're making the bet because you're afraid of being bluffed. This is not a good reason to bet. Value or bluff are the only good reasons.
    THANK YOU


    Thank you so much for the information. This is a wonderful piece of education about an error I so commonly make but didn’t know I was making an error.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    There are two reasons to bet, only two... value and bluff.
    With this in mind if reminds me of a cash game no limit hand I recently had.

    I’m new to the table. First to act. I have pocket Q’s and I bet 5x big blind. I had one called in late position.

    The flop came 8-10-A rainbow and I checked. The caller in late position bet half the pot and I folded.
    What should I have done differently? Having pocket Q’s when a K or A comes on the flop appears to be all too common to me, do you have any general advice?
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pen22 View Post
    With this in mind if reminds me of a cash game no limit hand I recently had.

    I’m new to the table. First to act. I have pocket Q’s and I bet 5x big blind. I had one called in late position.

    The flop came 8-10-A rainbow and I checked. The caller in late position bet half the pot and I folded.
    What should I have done differently? Having pocket Q’s when a K or A comes on the flop appears to be all too common to me, do you have any general advice?
    Check/folding QQ on AT8 flop in a 5x pot is a bit too weak really without any reads on villain. These are awkward spots though and I can't promise I'm playing them accurately.

    We could value bet this flop with QQ (around half pot) because we might get called by a ten, or a straight draw. We snap fold to a raise. I doubt this is a mistake. I'd bet this flop if I know villain is bad and passive, but not if he's bad and aggressive.

    Or we could check/call this, and it's probably what I do. If we check/call this, we need to ensure our range is balanced, this means having very good hands as well as average hands. I would be balancing my check/call range here by checking all of my 99+ pocket pairs including sets, and all of my Ax hands worse than AT. I'll bet 88 and A8 to ensure my cbet range isn't just AJ-AK JJ+ and bluffs.

    On the turn, if it's a 10 or lower, I'm probably just going to check/fold, but I'll check/call if we improve to a straight draw or 2pr aces and queens (an ace is a good turn for us as it makes it less likely he has an ace), and I'll either check/call or check/raise a Q turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    Lay down your card. Get off the table. Never look back.
  15. #15
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    There are two reasons to bet, only two... value and bluff.
    Just to add to this: You'll hear talk of other people using other reasons to bet... and they may sound sensible,
    but you're playing the micro-stakes. You need to focus on fundamentals. You need to spend your mental time where it makes the biggest effect on your winrate. Literally all you need to beat the micro stakes is straight ABC poker. Spend your time at these stakes learning to play a tight game with minimal bluffs.

    You'll hear players talk about semi-bluffs, blocking bets, floating calls, etc. Those are viable techniques at higher stakes, but they're not your biggest leaks in the micros. Focus your time on plugging your biggest leaks. If you find yourself justifying a move based on these higher-level tactics, then prob. you are over-thinking it, and your opponent isn't sophisticated enough to notice what you're trying to hide in the first place.

    For real, you can almost never bluff, just play tight opening hand ranges, bet big when you hit the board and don't over-bet weak hands... you'll be crushing these stakes. Even the players who notice you're playing a straight-forward game will level themselves into calling your big bets "just to see". Or they'll convince themself, "OMG he must be bluffing this time!" and call your big bets.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    You'll hear players talk about semi-bluffs, blocking bets, floating calls, etc.
    Sure, but a semibluff is still a bluff (just with more equity than a regular bluff), a blocker bet is probably a value bet or a semibluff, and floating is not betting it is calling, usually with a view to bluff later.

    I think it's important to understand that bets should either be value or bluff. The only way you're going to make money long term by betting is by getting worse hands to continue or by getting better hands to fold. If you're not doing either of these, you're setting money on fire.

    Sometimes a bet can be both. But if it's neither, then what is it? -ev, that's what. If it's +ev then it's a value bet or a bluff. And we want to make +ev bets.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
    This is a tricky hand. You did the right thing by raising the pre-flop with pocket 8's and betting on the flop. On the turn, you could have sized up your bet a bit more since the action was heads-up and you had position. The Ace gives the villain a lot of equity, so your check on the river was probably the right decision. If he had bet a smaller amount on the river, you could have called and most likely shown down the best hand. Overall, you made good decisions and played the hand correctly. Anyway, to avoid such stressful situations, I prefer to play online. I can recommend finding a casino from the list on <Mod edit : spam link deleted >. By reading the correct reviews, you can find the perfect one that suits your needs. Good luck!
    Last edited by Keith; 12-30-2022 at 06:57 AM. Reason: spam link deleted.
  18. #18
    I don't think that you need to go so deep into this kind of detail. If you have just started learning how to play poker, it is better to play more and start reading the information regarding the most common poker tricks.

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