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Folding KK pre

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  1. #1
    dombo's Avatar
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    Default Folding KK pre

    First of all I am not trying to be UL. (made 3k profit this week)

    But I have had spots this week 4 times both MTT and Cashgames where I get dealt KK action goes like a way, I am almost certain villian has AA (basically all the times not much reads at all on villian as a whole) but mostly the small 4bet sizing and in last hand which happened today i had only 15BB 3bet KK and he like min4bets me.

    So all the 4 times I put villain on AA but can't fold my KK.

    I am angry at myself for not learning , most people say its hard to fold KK pre, but I think if the read is there maybe you should.

    Last hand which was last of 4 so have it available now was the one i did get 4bet OOP while I only have 15BB.

    http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...394_21E040FDEC

    I'll look for others at later stage played so mmany games this week I have to look into HM
  2. #2
    Depending on the stakes at cash games I think there are certain areas where you can easily fold KK. Ie. you open and a super tight player jams 100bb in your face; among others. Or maybe even to a 4b clickback if the player is super tight.

    As far as in tournaments late stage like the posted hand to a 4b clickback, I wonder if it's better to just:
    a) assume it's AA and fold readless (unless pot odds)
    b) assume it's something like a top ~2.5% hand (AA, KK, AK, QQ) or even just AA, KK and call readless.
    Last edited by Weissr; 04-22-2015 at 07:07 PM.
  3. #3
    Eric's Avatar
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    I've never folded kings preflop with 100 big blinds or less.

    I've run into aces plenty of times but there have also been plenty of times when I was pretty sure the villain had aces yet it turned out he didn't.
  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dombo View Post
    I am angry at myself for not learning , most people say its hard to fold KK pre, but I think if the read is there maybe you should.
    But you said in your post that you didn't have any reads on the villain all the times, so I'm not sure why you're angry at yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by dombo View Post
    Last hand which was last of 4 so have it available now was the one i did get 4bet OOP while I only have 15BB.
    Not gonna lie, I regret watching that hand. I don't know why I did, I should have stopped at your post saying you had 15bb. Seriously, you 3-bet with KK and 15bb and want to fold????

    Trust me when I say that trying to figure out when to fold KK preflop is the LEAST of your concerns. Spend your time learning and studying things that will actually improve your ROI significantly rather than this trivial spot. You'll make plenty of money by following Eric's advice and just never folding KK preflop for less than 100bb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    Trust me when I say that trying to figure out when to fold KK preflop is the LEAST of your concerns. Spend your time learning and studying things that will actually improve your ROI significantly rather than this trivial spot. You'll make plenty of money by following Eric's advice and just never folding KK preflop for less than 100bb.
    I completely agree that folding KK anytime is just gross, but in this spot, late stage tourney with the stack sizes where they are, what hands are 4bet clicking back there other than Aces? Any other hand I can think of would be 4Bet jamming (this doesn't account for ppl that are complete droolers obv)
  6. #6
    donkbee's Avatar
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    Well honestly it could be anything if it's a fish. People do some really stupid shit. But do you realize the read you have to have to fold this? Your read has to be so strong to even consider a fold, and it has to be over a large enough sample to know that the read even means something. That kind of read is impossible in a small stakes MTT. You can't fold. It's just absurd to fold.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a little sad when the guy raises NAI. Not because I know he has AA, but because his raise narrows his range and yup AA is still in it. But that doesn't mean we can fold KK preflop with 15bb after 3-betting.

    You said "late stage" in tourney. If we're talking a final table ICM spot with stack sizes and payouts that matter, then I'm willing to listen. But this wasn't that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

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  7. #7
    Micro2Macro's Avatar
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    Don't 3bet this sizing with this stack then ever consider folding to a 4bet, with the exception of some bubble situations.

    People will absolutely click it back with anything they are going with, for the purpose of leveling you into folding this hand and massively increasing their EV.
  8. #8
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    But you said in your post that you didn't have any reads on the villain all the times, so I'm not sure why you're angry at yourself.

    Not gonna lie, I regret watching that hand. I don't know why I did, I should have stopped at your post saying you had 15bb. Seriously, you 3-bet with KK and 15bb and want to fold????

    .
    This was the most extreme one of 4, but still I think it was the most obvious one of the 4, it might be me but I just rarely ever have seen someone at the microstakes doing this without AA, unless it was a fish or donk (and the no reads is more as I have no sample on them yet , but mainly all 4 players looked more on the tight side)

    Do agree that the 15BB made call here and that I never fold KK with this stack ever (unless ICM or satty) ow maybe a DoN SNG but rarely play these and prolly in a DoN would shove KK or fold if I am save or bubble.
    Last edited by dombo; 04-23-2015 at 08:52 AM.
  9. #9
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post

    Trust me when I say that trying to figure out when to fold KK preflop is the LEAST of your concerns. Spend your time learning and studying things that will actually improve your ROI significantly rather than this trivial spot. You'll make plenty of money by following Eric's advice and just never folding KK preflop for less than 100bb.
    I do agree on study other parts is probably better, still I just don't like to not keep other options open and play hands on default. <---
    Basically a JCarver principle to keep thinking bout this if you watched some of his RunItUp MTT shows.

    Like you just say that I have to listen to Eric just never folding KK under a 100BB stack, I totally disagree on this. (I know you mean it well) and I prolly put the KK in close 2 100% of the times allin pre if possible without much hesitation, but just saying never do this, its just not my ballpark.
  10. #10
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I've never folded kings preflop with 100 big blinds or less.

    I've run into aces plenty of times but there have also been plenty of times when I was pretty sure the villain had aces yet it turned out he didn't.
    Seemingly this year if I give them a very narrow range in this spot they will open AA like expected and when I give them a wide range they don't maybe its coincedence in 2015 or so (I have to agree other years it was more random like your comment)
  11. #11
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    Don't 3bet this sizing with this stack then ever consider folding to a 4bet, with the exception of some bubble situations.

    People will absolutely click it back with anything they are going with, for the purpose of leveling you into folding this hand and massively increasing their EV.
    I agree on this also and again I wasn't ever planning on folding KK here with 15BB, even when my read said AA only here (and in the other 3 spots) but this basically made me make this thread, cause it is just so common to never fold KK pre (.

    Also I almost never narrows peoples ranges to one hand only (unless what DonkBee said if you have enough sample) but maybe it just was instinct or so idk, I just didn't see another hand they could play this way.

    And for the clicking back in micros? With these stacksizes, I play a lot of volume , but rarely see this, might be cause I am rarely playing PS, but softer sites?
  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    Well honestly it could be anything if it's a fish. People do some really stupid shit. But do you realize the read you have to have to fold this? Your read has to be so strong to even consider a fold, and it has to be over a large enough sample to know that the read even means something. That kind of read is impossible in a small stakes MTT.
    It wasnt a fish and was less 100 runners left or so big5 and I didn't have much info like said , but sizings/stacksizes do tell a lot imo.

    And your last comment is not right at all, on almost every site I play I do have enough sample in small stakes MTT's, just cause the average size fields aren't that big and I play lots of volume and see same players more often.

    This was just on PS where I don't have the sample. Besides that was moved to this table 11 hands before or so.
    Last edited by dombo; 04-23-2015 at 08:35 AM.
  13. #13
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    Maybe the cashgame spot I was in was one 2 fold. (sorry to put this in Tournament poker maybe should post it elsewhere)

    I can't find the hand back it was played on Party Poker FastForward.

    6 max me and villain play about 125BB effective I am the BB.

    Co (villain) 2x button 3bets 5x, I 4bet 15x on BB with KK, Villain 5bets 32x , Me ????
  14. #14
    dombo's Avatar
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    3bettor folded vs 5bet villian
  15. #15
    I don't think anyone can fold KK with 15BB profitablly. In cash game with 100BB not a lot of people can fold KK preflop.
    With 15BB left I would never fold AK, QQ, JJ unless I face some ukrainian nits' action )
  16. #16
    Sometimes you can fold, but not whit 15bb and after a 3bet from you wtf
    dont be results oriented
  17. #17
    donkbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dombo View Post
    And your last comment is not right at all, on almost every site I play I do have enough sample in small stakes MTT's, just cause the average size fields aren't that big and I play lots of volume and see same players more often.
    Well obviously if you see someone in multiple tournaments repeatedly day after day, that's different. Your post gave no indication that your hand was that situation. Your hand was from a large field tournament on Pokerstars, where my statement is perfectly applicable. I know from experience that most people vastly over adjust based on their "reads" on players. I play HU SnGs and see situations where someone can play the same player for dozens or even hundreds of games and still over adjust based on their reads. People vastly underestimate the number of hands required vs someone before a read actually becomes meaningful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  18. #18
    I fold KK maybe 1-2 times a year in live poker and run into instances maybe 5-10 times a year where I really want to fold it but don't, and in those cases I'm probably right ~50% of the time.

    You could probably fold KK pre with 15 BBs after about 4 straight all-ins from normal tight players. After 3-betting a 15-bb stack there are several hands worse than KK that you can't fold.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  19. #19
    I get that same feeling sometimes but have yet to lay it down preflop, with 15bb that KK looks very nice Congrats on your wins!
  20. #20
    dombo's Avatar
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    Ty for comments all.

    Had a similar spot yesterday, immediately tagged the hand.

    Should I have fold KK here? I did 5bet KK , but he 6bets and leaves room. (5bet fold or flat 4bet?) with flatting 4bet here I would have gone broke post , i think 5bet folding leaving my self with like 80BB;s?
    Also totally not a guy that is going out of line pre so deep.

    Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 27.5 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 40 Ante (9 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

    UTG+1 (t50,897)
    Button (t107,049)
    Hero (MP2) (t52,550)
    SB (t58,752)
    MP1 (t49,270)
    UTG (t47,480)
    CO (t47,280)
    BB (t39,184)
    MP3 (t45,763)

    Hero's M: 54.74

    Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K
    2 folds, MP1 raises t800, Hero raises t2,000, 5 folds, MP1 raises t4,400, Hero raises t9,200, MP1 raises t15,600, Hero raises to t52,510 (All-In), MP1 calls t28,430 (All-In)

    Flop: (t103,300) 10, 5, 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

    Turn: (t103,300) 3 (2 players, 2 all-in)

    River: (t103,300) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

    Total pot: t103,300

    Results below:
    Spoiler:

    MP1 had A, A (two pair, Aces and fives).
    Hero had K, K (two pair, Kings and fives).
    Outcome: MP1 won t99,420, Hero won t3,280
    Last edited by dombo; 05-15-2015 at 03:39 PM.
  21. #21
    Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dombo View Post
    Ty for comments all.

    Had a similar spot yesterday
    I don't think it is similar when you look at it from a Harrington on Holdem II perspective. In the first spot you have 15 big blinds but in this latest one you have 131 - night and day difference. You're in completely different zones.
  22. #22
    I think if there was some magical way to spot aces and get away from them then life would be much simpler. But especially nowadays even when people are clicking you back it definitely isn't always aces. I mean look at some of the pros going on clickback wars with ex. A9o v 55. Unless you have a SOLID read on someone that they only 4/5B clickback aces then you just have to go with it; I mean even if they do, you still have around 18% equity with KK to take down the pot and in late stage tourney play you're looking at a usually large double-up when you bink it putting you in a good position to take down the tournament VS the alternative of folding and giving up whatever large portion of your stack you already have in he middle (taking into account whatever possibility, even sometimes small, that it's not actually aces).
  23. #23
    Unless you have very good read about your opponent (who you encounter many times before) and put his hand on Aces because he made similar action when have aces, you're not gonna fold your Kings, even with 100BB. Kings is like the magic hand you get when your stack is 15BB, why you have to regret )
    But I do see some players just flat call with Kings when facing tight players' open raise, so you can dodge Aces once in a while with this play, but not sure this play can bring your best profit in the long run. Give it a try )
  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    People do some really stupid shit.
    This demonstrates perfectly why I'm never folding kings pre.

    Last hand last night, some dude who had been playing relatively solid stuff on a fishy table decided to 3b shove 53o for 30bb into my button raise with AA. It wasn't that bad a shove, I mean I fold JJ and AQ because he had done nothing over an hour session to demonstrate that he was capable of shoving AJ in that spot, let alone pure junk. He probably actually makes money in that spot and was unlucky to run into my unfoldable range. Point is, bee is right. People do stupid shit all the time, myself included.
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    ongies gonna ong
  25. #25
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    I can see some reason for paranoia if PFR was UTG and you 3b UTG+1, but even still I'm jamming for 15bb's and it's not even close.

    You're on the BTN, where it could easily be assumed you are getting more out of line than any other position. Barring some amazing read, you just can't ever fold this.

    Agree with donkbee, there are so many other spots that come up more often that will impact your game, than worry about folding KK with 15bb's.
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  26. #26
    I'd say you should never play poker if you fold KK preflop... Just don't do this.
  27. #27
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Yeah please don't bump year old threads if you're just going to add an inane one-liner comment.

    If you want to add something that you feel is constructive and hasn't been said, fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28
    You should consider your own table image. Have you been playing a bit loose, making it seem reasonable that another player could push you around with a marginal hand? If so, then pound with KK - you're very likely the overwhelming favorite.
  29. #29
    I have lost so many comps and big money by over-playing KK. Seriously thinking about open-folding from now on, or just set-mine or get to a cheap showdown
  30. #30
    ihategnomes's Avatar
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    I have never folded KK preflop in 16 years of playing poker.
    Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
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  31. #31
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    I would hardly ever fold KK on an online poker game. The problem is that most players that play online are wild players. They do not play as if it was a professional game. So most of the time your KK is good. It is very unlikely you will run into AA. Now if you were playing a live tournament for big stakes, just then I would question if the player has AA. I ran into this problem at a WSOP tournament. I had KK under the gun and had 3 players go all in. I folded my hand being almost positive some one had AA of at the least AK or AQ. But when the players showed their hand, they had 44, 55, and QQ. I would have won a huge pot if I would have called.

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