folded Aces. was it right?

early on in the game, this developed:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10+$1 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



SB (t1440)
BB (t1410)
UTG (t3110)
UTG+1 (t1470)
Enemy (MP1) (t1790)
Hero (MP2) (t1470)
CO (t1380)
Button (t1430)

Hero's M: 32.67



Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8, A
2 folds, Enemy calls t30, Hero calls t30, 2 folds, SB calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t120) J, A, 7 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Enemy bets t100, Hero folds, 2 folds

Total pot: t120

My thinking was, I could be going up against anything. From a higher kicker to a flush draw, etc... if I kept calling 100 or 200 bets, and I lost, I'd be shortstacked early on, and it wasn't worth the risk...

Was it right?
Thanks...

First of all, fold this crap preflop. You are not in great position, you only flop a flush or flush draw about 12% of the time and you can lose a lot of chips on an A or 8 high flop if you're not careful.

As played, this is the problem with calling preflop - you have no idea whether you're ahead or behind. Personally I would probably fold as you did but there's a reasonable chance you folded the best hand.

I'm a fish, I call and fold any non-A or 8 turn.

don't even put yourself in this position by playing this hand, maybe limp late after 3-4 more... but even then you need to hit alot harder to continue.

fold
and not a big fan of Axs

Originally Posted by taipan168

First of all, fold this crap preflop. You are not in great position, you only flop a flush or flush draw about 12% of the time and you can lose a lot of chips on an A or 8 high flop if you're not careful.

For me to get paid, I'd need those two suits on the flop, or at least one and a free look at the turn...

The chances of getting on the flop the 3 suits or 2 suits to a draw is 12%, or 7.5 to 1.

After that, the chances of hitting my flush in the turn or river is 35%, or almost 2 to 1

So basically we're talking 15 to 1 odds of getting my flush, right?

If it does come, I stand the chance of getting, say 1000 chips for my 20 chip investment, which means 50x as much. Even if we say 500 chips, thats 25x my investment pre flop.

So 25x for 15 to 1 odds makes sense, no?

And if I'm calling more than one person, or even 4 people with a standard 3x raise, I stand the chance of really raking it in...

So why throw this hand away with no raises behind me, from a decent position?

A lot of people compare this situation to limping with small pocket pairs hoping to hit a set on the flop (11.8% chance or 7.5 to 1 against). With two suited cards, the chance of hitting a flush on the flop is 0.8% (or worse than 100 to 1 against) or a four-flush on the flop is 10.9% (or 8.2 to 1 against).

The reasons why the situation is different are as follows:

- Flopped sets are usually very disguised hands. For example, if you have 66 and the flop comes A62 you will usually get a lot of chips from somebody with AK who (correctly) figures his hand is good. Flopped flushes, however, stick out like dogs' balls so you're only getting real action from somebody else who flopped a lower flush (or maybe a set).

- Remember you only flop a flush less than 1 time in 100. The other times, you flop a flush draw and may or may not have to call bets on the flop and turn to chase your draw. You can justify a lot of bad calls by relying on implied odds which may not be as good as you think because, as I said above, a 3-flush on board is very obvious.

- It is too easy to lose a lot of chips on an A or 8 high flop (or alternatively fold the best hand, which is almost as bad)

- Your position here is not good. If you were on the CO or button and there were 2+ limpers in front I would probably limp along as well but to me the HJ and 1 limper is a bit marginal.

Originally Posted by x in extremo

Originally Posted by taipan168

First of all, fold this crap preflop. You are not in great position, you only flop a flush or flush draw about 12% of the time and you can lose a lot of chips on an A or 8 high flop if you're not careful.

For me to get paid, I'd need those two suits on the flop, or at least one and a free look at the turn...

The chances of getting on the flop the 3 suits or 2 suits to a draw is 12%, or 7.5 to 1.

After that, the chances of hitting my flush in the turn or river is 35%, or almost 2 to 1

So basically we're talking 15 to 1 odds of getting my flush, right?

If it does come, I stand the chance of getting, say 1000 chips for my 20 chip investment, which means 50x as much. Even if we say 500 chips, thats 25x my investment pre flop.

So 25x for 15 to 1 odds makes sense, no?

And if I'm calling more than one person, or even 4 people with a standard 3x raise, I stand the chance of really raking it in...

So why throw this hand away with no raises behind me, from a decent position?

I understand your argument because I've played Axs a lot but Taipan outlines the reasons pretty well. The problem is you're never really getting 25-1 or anything close to that on your investment. Often you're paying $400 chips or so to win a pot of $800, because once that flush hits on the river, you're likely not getting paid.

What about the times you chase and miss? You're out $400 chips that would have been vital to your stack. When you double up on a big hand, you'll have $2200 in chips instead of $3000. So, the costs are quite a bit higher than you think. What about if you hit your flush but the board pairs? Are you going to lay your hand down or get pwn3d by a boat? What about when you miss your flush but hit an ace on the river? Do you think your hand is good then or are you up against two pair or better hands?

The only time implied odds really work for you is if you're up against lesser flush draws, which is fairly common.

He's right, your concept of getting 1k for 20 is severely flawed. If you have to chase then you have to add those chips in to your "investment" pool, as well as the fact that often u have to slow play a made flush because it's glaringly obvious, tough to capitalize.

I understand.. makes sense... I never thought limping with A8s was worse than with 33.... which brings up a question about these hands in the bubble.

and thanks guys. I'll change the way I play these.. I either misunderstood the advice from a sng strategy guide, or the guide is flawed.

Let me ask you this if I may:
Bubble situation, 4 players, blinds at 100/200.
One fella has most of the chips, about 8k. I got about 2400, so does the third player. The short stack has about 800 in chips.

Should I raise to put the short stack all in with A8s or 33, if I'm first to act (or with no raises behind me)? (normally I fold)

Should I fold to a raise from any of the other 2 players, (even if the big stack keeps putting pressure)? (I would)

If the short stack goes all in and I'm 1st to act, should I call?
What if he goes all in and I'm not the 1st to act, but everybody else folds?

I never know how to play these drawing hands on the bubble. (so I fold em.. unless I'm in the SB with no calls or raises behind, and the BB is tight)

Originally Posted by x in extremo

Let me ask you this if I may:
Bubble situation, 4 players, blinds at 100/200.
One fella has most of the chips, about 8k. I got about 2400, so does the third player. The short stack has about 800 in chips.

Key thing - stay out of the way of the stacks that can put you out but hammer on the short stack (depending on position).

Originally Posted by x in extremo

Should I raise to put the short stack all in with A8s or 33, if I'm first to act (or with no raises behind me)? (normally I fold)

Depends on position. If the two other stacks fold, you're in the SB and the small stack is in the BB I would shove A8s and 33 every time. If you were UTG and the short stack in the BB, I fold A8s and 33 every time.

Originally Posted by x in extremo

Should I fold to a raise from any of the other 2 players, (even if the big stack keeps putting pressure)? (I would)

This is read and position dependent. For example, if the two other players fold, the other medium stack is in the SB and minraises, I would probably shove over. If it's the big stack in the SB I fold. If you are in the BB and either stack raises from UTG, I fold.

Originally Posted by x in extremo

If the short stack goes all in and I'm 1st to act, should I call?
What if he goes all in and I'm not the 1st to act, but everybody else folds?

Depends on position, if you're in the BB (so you close the action) then I would tend to call because of pot odds, if you do not close the action then I would tend to fold. However, it is quite situation dependent - eg. if the big stack is UTG and folds, the short stack is on the button and shoves and you are in the SB - I would probably reshove since the other medium stack won't call you wide.

As you can see, very situation dependent which is why I ask everybody to post the exact hand so all factors can be taken into account.

I get it.. Originally I wrote this long-winded question with all these possibilities, but you outlined it in the exact way I'd play each situation, so I'm happy I'm making the right decisions.

I was writing other thoughts in here, but they were off topic and had another focus, so I'm posting a new topic...

Thanks again.. I'm always amazed at the level of help in here...
I hope to one day soon be contributing my own ideas for those with questions..

Taipan, as he showed by his play of this hand, he's not going to lose a lot of chips with just top pair.

I see nothing wrong with an overlimp at a table that probably has several terrible players, as long as you make the appropriate cautious plays postflop.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Taipan, as he showed by his play of this hand, he's not going to lose a lot of chips with just top pair.

I see nothing wrong with an overlimp at a table that probably has several terrible players, as long as you make the appropriate cautious plays postflop.

Yeah, maybe I should have given him more credit that he wouldn't lose a lot of chips on an A or 8 high flop. My other points still stand however.

Overall, I don't think that it is a dreadful leak to limp this hand, but it is nonetheless a small leak. At SNGs, due to the ICM effect, you cannot bleed away chips limping Ax suited from marginal position. There are times that it makes sense to limp it, but this is (marginally) not one of them.

The value of AK, which is a premium hand, comes in large part from the profit you make by pwning Ax on boards like this.

If you are going to play hands like AXs you should of raised preflop, i would of put in a re raise on the flop because you also have to think what is MP1 limping in here with that could have you crush AJ probably raising, could be betting out a flush draw. I would raise and fold to a re raise. You always want to come into the pot as the aggressor.

folding preflop is cool since this is a trouble post flop hand and will put us in akward spots when we flop TP...
when i played 9mans this was a AUTO-MUCK and i think i ran like 5vpip/3pfr or something ridic nitty .
now that i play 18 mans i limp a lot more in LP with speculative hands although from the HJ i just muck this.
In CO/BTN i will usually overlimp 1 limper something like A8s/A10o+ , any sooted broadways . 89ss+ , any PP ..

than again i play 18mans and i think theres more value in playing speculative hands in late position if you have a decent grasp of post flop play and don't go crazy when you hit marginal hands .

granted that i would prob limp this from CO/BTN and would be calling the flop bet and folding the turn a lot if he fires a big bet again.


but given it's a 9man folding pf is prob the best option by far since everything depends on $EV , unlike MTT SNG's where decisions are calculated by cEV a lot of the time pre final table stuff.

I like limping Axs, but that could be a leak, I don't know. I don't mind playing sub-par holdings postflop, so my advice should definitely be taken with a grain of salt. The thing about Axs is that while the "suited" doesn't always get it paid off, hitting two pair often will, as well as trips, when you can be pretty damn sure that A8 where either card has tripped is the best hand. Just as with the 66 argument, AK on an A82 board is going to be pretty sure he has the best hand. So the implied odds are definitely there with Axs.

In this particular spot, I tend to raise the flop. Even a minraise is often enough to make everyone else fold and then check down to showdown with Enemy, and you have some good showdown value. If he comes over the top or shows more aggression on the turn, then I'm ready to fold. If he's a maniac who is aggressive with light holdings, I'm quite happy to go all the way with A8 here.

If you're not comfortable playing hands like this, then I agree that simply folding Axs is probably the best move. You'll have to take down a few of these types of hands in order to make Axs a +EV hand.

Originally Posted by DoanDiggy

I like limping Axs, but that could be a leak, I don't know. I don't mind playing sub-par holdings postflop, so my advice should definitely be taken with a grain of salt. The thing about Axs is that while the "suited" doesn't always get it paid off, hitting two pair often will, as well as trips, when you can be pretty damn sure that A8 where either card has tripped is the best hand. Just as with the 66 argument, AK on an A82 board is going to be pretty sure he has the best hand. So the implied odds are definitely there with Axs.

Do you know exactly how often you flop a) a flush b) a flush draw and c) two pair or trips, and how many chips you have to win when you do to give yourself correct implied odds (considering that flushes stick out like dog's balls and you won't always get paid when you flop two pair or trips?

Originally Posted by DoanDiggy

In this particular spot, I tend to raise the flop. Even a minraise is often enough to make everyone else fold and then check down to showdown with Enemy, and you have some good showdown value. If he comes over the top or shows more aggression on the turn, then I'm ready to fold. If he's a maniac who is aggressive with light holdings, I'm quite happy to go all the way with A8 here.

Raising the flop without a very solid read (which Hero probably doesn't have given it's early) is exactly the way to hit yourself with the reverse implied odds associated with limping hands like A8.

From http://www.flopturnriver.com/Common-Flop-Odds.html

You flop a flush draw 11% of the time. Often times you can bet 1/2-2/3P at this and take it down right away. A lot of times you get called by worse flush draws or a pair. You have a better than 10% chance of hitting your A to improve to a better pair. You have anywhere from 25%-35% to hit your flush, depending on if the other player is on a flush draw or not.

You flop a flush 1% of the time. You can bet 1/2P to give a flush draw or a pair the idea that they can call, or a bluffer might try to raise you (who bets a flush on the flop?). Then you just hope that someone hits their K-high flush and you get paid.

You flop two pair by pairing both of your hole cards 2% of the time. In these instances, you really like your hand, and if you lose here you got coolered or sucked out on. You're highly likely to get paid off here if anyone else has an A or two pair.

You flop trips over 1% of the time. You really like your hand here, and you have a decent chance of getting paid off because a lot of people don't pay much mind to trips. Please give them some time to catch up a little .

So 15% of the time, we flop a hand that we really like and can continue with. If you can take down an average pot of 20-40BB with these hands, you're in great shape.

Now for some other situations:

You flop two pair by pairing your hand and the board another 2% of the time. If we have paired our A, I like checking the flop, then we can get value from a paired turn card or a pocket pair. If our X is paired, I like a bet, and we can take down the pot a lot of times. If we're called, shutdown.

You pair your A over 13% of the time. This is the critical part of playing Axs, in my opinion. In a limped pot, quite often, a pair of aces is the best hand. That doesn't mean you can treat it like the nuts. If you can do better than break even in these instances (and you really should be able to), then you're going to do just fine playing Axs. If not, it's better to just fold it preflop.

We pair our x another 13% of the time. I often like a bet (not a raise!) here as well, especially if we have a 3flush, too. We might have the best hand at this point, and if we don't, we will often get 2 free chances to improve our hand. Just don't go nuts.

And that doesn't count the times where we can take down a pot just by virtue of being in the hand. There are plenty of times where no one is interested in the hand and you can throw in a bluff on the turn and take it down. There are also times where we get to a cheap showdown and our A-high or our pair of x is the best hand.

Again, to reiterate, you have to be pretty aggressive postflop and willing to play in tough spots in order to make limping Axs +EV, but it certainly can be. For beginners or for players who prefer more straightforward play, there is absolutely no reason to be playing Axs.

Originally Posted by taipan168

Raising the flop without a very solid read (which Hero probably doesn't have given it's early) is exactly the way to hit yourself with the reverse implied odds associated with limping hands like A8.

This is a good point. Raising a pot-sized bet isn't often the best idea unless you know that an opponent will bluff like that. So maybe a minraise in this spot is a bad idea. If the bet is smaller, I like raising it in hopes that we can go to showdown where we'll often be ahead, and we might improve along the way. If it's an aggressive player, I like flat calling a lot of times since we're reasonably likely to be ahead.

Originally Posted by DoanDiggy

You flop a flush draw 11% of the time. Often times you can bet 1/2-2/3P at this and take it down right away. A lot of times you get called by worse flush draws or a pair. You have a better than 10% chance of hitting your A to improve to a better pair. You have anywhere from 25%-35% to hit your flush, depending on if the other player is on a flush draw or not.

Ah, now this is where you can lose a lot of chips chasing a flush draw (with the supposed implied odds that justify making calls against the express odds). Remember, a flush on board is very very obvious so unless opp has a lower flush or another better than one pair hand, you probably aren't taking his whole stack unless he's an idiot.

Originally Posted by DoanDiggy

So 4% of the time, we flop a hand that we really like and can continue with. If you can take down an average pot of 25BB or half a stack every time we do hit two pair or better[/b] with these hands, you just have implied odds to continue.

FYP - and remember that you won't get paid off every time, so you probably need to win a 50x BB pot (ie. a full stack at these blinds) assuming that you only stack somebody 1 time in 2.

As I said, I don't think that limping A8s here is a huge leak, but I'd prefer to be in position with 2+ limpers in front or in the SB with lots of limpers and a passive BB to call.

Doesn't Axs derive value from semibluff FE, in spots like this:

UTG raises with 88. You call in LP with A8s. the SB calls with AJs and BB calls with JTs and the pot is 12BBs. The flop comes T65 with two of your suit. The preflop raiser cbets 9 BBs and you reraise to 20 BBs. SB folds and JT in the BB comes over the top for 33 BBs and UTG folds his 88. Now you have a no-brainer call and you have knocked out a better ace, in effect buying yourself two more outs vs. a pair of 10s, with a remote chance for runner-runner straight cards.

Of course, it's always better to have two overcards and a draw.