The flop overbet push...

Is often crap.

FullTiltPoker Game #4627417103: The Fifty-Fifty (34969374), Table 104 - 1200/2400 Ante 300 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:06:57 ET - 2007/12/26
Seat 1: wilton1960 (35,018)
Seat 2: Kcannon87 (74,240)
Seat 3: darthsikle (100,120)
Seat 4: WAREAGLE1234 (17,980)
Seat 5: TheSlowCheetah (21,350)
Seat 6: MarsMan2001 (72,175)
Seat 7: chardrian (115,558)
Seat 8: angus717 (82,815)
Seat 9: LJ316 (79,980)
wilton1960 antes 300
Kcannon87 antes 300
darthsikle antes 300
WAREAGLE1234 antes 300
TheSlowCheetah antes 300
MarsMan2001 antes 300
chardrian antes 300
angus717 antes 300
LJ316 antes 300
angus717 posts the small blind of 1,200
LJ316 posts the big blind of 2,400
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to chardrian [Jc Qc]
wilton1960 raises to 4,800
Kcannon87 folds
darthsikle folds
WAREAGLE1234 folds
TheSlowCheetah folds
MarsMan2001 folds
chardrian calls 4,800
angus717 folds
LJ316 folds
*** FLOP *** [5d Jh 3h]
wilton1960 has 15 seconds left to act
wilton1960 bets 29,918, and is all in
chardrian calls 29,918
wilton1960 shows [6c 6h]
chardrian shows [Jc Qc]
*** TURN *** [5d Jh 3h] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [5d Jh 3h 6s] [4d]
wilton1960 shows three of a kind, Sixes
chardrian shows a pair of Jacks
wilton1960 wins the pot (75,736) with three of a kind, Sixes
The blinds are now 1,500/3,000 with an ante of 400
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 75,736 | Rake 0
Board: [5d Jh 3h 6s 4d]
Seat 1: wilton1960 showed [6c 6h] and won (75,736) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 2: Kcannon87 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: darthsikle folded before the Flop
Seat 4: WAREAGLE1234 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: TheSlowCheetah folded before the Flop
Seat 6: MarsMan2001 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: chardrian (button) showed [Jc Qc] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: angus717 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: LJ316 (big blind) folded before the Flop

FullTiltPoker Game #4626803821: The Fifty-Fifty (34969374), Table 104 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:49:47 ET - 2007/12/26
Seat 1: AngryJoe (19,499)
Seat 2: nachopolo (19,236)
Seat 3: stump man 18 (9,458)
Seat 4: NvRScrDWuN (39,088)
Seat 5: Dry (13,584)
Seat 6: MarsMan2001 (17,239)
Seat 7: chardrian (17,658)
Seat 8: brooklyn29 (24,150)
Seat 9: ezewins (12,257)
AngryJoe antes 100
nachopolo antes 100
stump man 18 antes 100
NvRScrDWuN antes 100
Dry antes 100
MarsMan2001 antes 100
chardrian antes 100
brooklyn29 antes 100
ezewins antes 100
ezewins posts the small blind of 400
AngryJoe posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to chardrian [7h 7s]
nachopolo raises to 3,700
stump man 18 folds
NvRScrDWuN folds
Dry folds
MarsMan2001 folds
chardrian calls 3,700
brooklyn29 has 15 seconds left to act
brooklyn29 folds
ezewins folds
AngryJoe folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd 9s 4h]
nachopolo bets 15,436, and is all in
chardrian calls 13,858, and is all in
nachopolo shows [Ah Qd]
chardrian shows [7h 7s]
Uncalled bet of 1,578 returned to nachopolo
*** TURN *** [Jd 9s 4h] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 9s 4h 4c] [Kh]
nachopolo shows a pair of Fours
chardrian shows two pair, Sevens and Fours
chardrian wins the pot (37,216) with two pair, Sevens and Fours
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 37,216 | Rake 0
Board: [Jd 9s 4h 4c Kh]
Seat 1: AngryJoe (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: nachopolo showed [Ah Qd] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 3: stump man 18 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: NvRScrDWuN folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Dry folded before the Flop
Seat 6: MarsMan2001 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: chardrian showed [7h 7s] and won (37,216) with two pair, Sevens and Fours
Seat 8: brooklyn29 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: ezewins (small blind) folded before the Flop

would you say this applies to only heads up, or even 3+ seeing the flop?

Just asking as both HHs are heads up

I'd like to blame reading this post on my bust out today, but I would have called anyways :P

Game #4752292313: Head Hunter $4K GTD (ID6146796) $20+$2 - Hold'em NL (50/100) - 2007/12/26 - 20:31:51 (GMT)
Table "6146796 - 1" Seat 5 is the button.
Seat 1: Wigwam002 (2300 in chips)
Seat 2: Bromefc (1875 in chips)
Seat 3: Sealaceye (4430 in chips)
Seat 4: maddyr (820 in chips)
Seat 5: Chr311270 (7085 in chips)
Seat 6: Popeye57 (995 in chips)
Seat 8: MATTZOMB (4475 in chips)
Seat 9: Smith108 (2640 in chips)
Seat 10: Theib1 (3430 in chips)
Popeye57: posts small blind 50
MATTZOMB: posts big blind 100
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to MATTZOMB [9h Kh]
Smith108: folds
Theib1: folds
Wigwam002: folds
Bromefc: folds
Sealaceye: raises to 300
maddyr: folds
Chr311270: calls 300
Popeye57: folds
MATTZOMB: calls 200
----- FLOP ----- [Kd 6c Td]
MATTZOMB: checks
Sealaceye: bets 4130 and is all-in
Chr311270: folds
MATTZOMB: calls 4130
----- TURN ----- [Kd 6c Td][4d]
----- RIVER ----- [Kd 6c Td 4d][5s]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Sealaceye: shows [Jh Ks] (A Pair of Kings, Jack high)
MATTZOMB: shows [9h Kh] (A Pair of Kings, Ten high)
Sealaceye collected 9210 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 9210 Main pot 9210 Rake 0
Board [Kd 6c Td 4d 5s]
Seat 1: Wigwam002 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Bromefc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sealaceye showed [Jh Ks] and won (9210) with A Pair of Kings, Jack high
Seat 4: maddyr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Chr311270 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Popeye57 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: MATTZOMB (big blind) showed [9h Kh] and lost with A Pair of Kings, Ten high
Seat 9: Smith108 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Theib1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

yeah it's generally heads up, and yeah it's board dependent.

Korn - the hand u posted is blech. Folding preflop is definitely an option there. Folding postflop is also more warranted because a lot of players will overbet to protect their hands on drawy boards like that (trying to make flush and str8 draws pay heavily to draw).

Originally Posted by chardrian

yeah it's generally heads up, and yeah it's board dependent.

Korn - the hand u posted is blech. Folding preflop is definitely an option there. Folding postflop is also more warranted because a lot of players will overbet to protect their hands on drawy boards like that (trying to make flush and str8 draws pay heavily to draw).

You could also lead real large (3/4 to full pot) and fold to a shove, although I feel dirty when I do it.

Originally Posted by chardrian

yeah it's generally heads up, and yeah it's board dependent.

Korn - the hand u posted is blech. Folding preflop is definitely an option there. Folding postflop is also more warranted because a lot of players will overbet to protect their hands on drawy boards like that (trying to make flush and str8 draws pay heavily to draw).

Yes preflop was marginal. He had been very aggressive in the few hands I had seen since joining the table though. Really I don't see how this had is that different from the two you posted. Is K 10 x really that more coordinated than J9x? If he had a good to great hand, why wouldn't he try to get some value from it (with position as well) rather than shove for 3.5x the pot size?

yes KTx suited is a lot more coordianted than J9x rainbow.

AQ, AJ, JQ, any flush draw all hit at least some extra outs on that flop.

only a very marginal preflop TQ, 8T and TK do on the 9Jx board.

I also blame it this post for this hand, even tho its not much of an overbet and I had little to nothing to call with

PokerStars Game #14148099100: Tournament #71071521, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/12/28 - 01:57:40 (ET)
Table '71071521 163' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: JWB3619 (2960 in chips)
Seat 2: luckylindy68 (2200 in chips)
Seat 3: shogusumi (13025 in chips)
Seat 4: Yandis (2593 in chips)
Seat 5: Tommac 5 (4945 in chips)
Seat 6: JETER_LIKE (4775 in chips)
Seat 7: snowboard_31 (11175 in chips)
Seat 8: ThunderBob (7566 in chips)
Seat 9: cruzzing (9170 in chips)
JWB3619: posts the ante 25
luckylindy68: posts the ante 25
shogusumi: posts the ante 25
Yandis: posts the ante 25
Tommac 5: posts the ante 25
JETER_LIKE: posts the ante 25
snowboard_31: posts the ante 25
ThunderBob: posts the ante 25
cruzzing: posts the ante 25
JWB3619: posts small blind 200
luckylindy68: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to snowboard_31 [4c 4s]
shogusumi: folds
Yandis: folds
Tommac 5: calls 400
JETER_LIKE: folds
snowboard_31: calls 400
ThunderBob: folds
cruzzing: folds
JWB3619: folds
luckylindy68: checks
*** FLOP *** [3s Th 8h]
luckylindy68: bets 1775 and is all-in
Tommac 5: folds
snowboard_31: calls 1775
*** TURN *** [3s Th 8h] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [3s Th 8h Kh] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
luckylindy68: shows [8c 9d] (a pair of Eights)
snowboard_31: shows [4c 4s] (a pair of Fours)
luckylindy68 collected 5175 from pot

I don't like the QJs hand but I absolutely hate the 2nd (77).

the 77 doesn't seem that great because you'll be getting it in with 10% equity a good amount and the rest of the time your opponents will have anywhere from 6-10 outs, so they're really not making a big mistake by shoving there.

Meh - you can decide what's a marginal edge for you, I think both of these were correct given reads and stack sizes.

The minraise and then push flop in hand 1 signified basically only AK, AQ, or PPs TT- to me. A check raise all-in woulda made me much more likely to fold.

Hand 2 - a fold isn't so bad. My gut told me he had AK there so I went with my gut. I was surprised he had AQ instead. I realy don't see how I am getting it in with 10% there very often maybe the occassional 88, TT, or TJ, JQ type hand. But anything else isn't playing it this way, he'd play for value and either checkraise or bet pottish. Other than that his range is only 6 outs (most likely AK, maybe AQ) or 10-14 outs (TK and TQ). I didn't pokerstove it so it is very possible that it was a bad call. I posted it as an example that flop push bets are (more?) often "please fold" bets rather than "please call" ones.

Does this one count?
My notes on the villian say he has a wide open limping range and that he donks bottom pair.

PokerStars Game #14262487174: Tournament #71862321, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/01/02 - 01:34:44 (ET)
Table '71862321 149' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Binfolden #1 (1725 in chips)
Seat 2: des1340 (3450 in chips)
Seat 3: pas003 (5890 in chips)
Seat 4: soccerstar63 (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: toby99705 (2960 in chips)
Seat 6: bripoy25 (2885 in chips)
Seat 7: fold-jokers (1225 in chips)
Seat 8: BenGPsycho (3145 in chips)
Seat 9: HERO (1575 in chips)
Binfolden #1: posts small blind 25
des1340: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [7h 7s]
pas003: folds
soccerstar63: calls 50
toby99705: folds
bripoy25: folds
fold-jokers: folds
BenGPsycho: calls 50
HERO: raises 200 to 250
Binfolden #1: folds
des1340: folds
soccerstar63: calls 200
BenGPsycho: folds
*** FLOP *** [2c Jc 3d]
soccerstar63: checks
HERO: bets 300
soccerstar63: raises 930 to 1230 and is all-in
HERO: calls 930
*** TURN *** [2c Jc 3d] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [2c Jc 3d Ks] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
soccerstar63: shows [4c Kc] (two pair, Kings and Threes)
snowboard_31: shows [7h 7s] (two pair, Sevens and Threes)
soccerstar63 collected 3085 from pot

not really boss, it's one thing to open-shove overbet, but there he's pushing over a cbet.