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dry side pot

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  1. #1
    Eric's Avatar
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    Default dry side pot

    There were 6 of us left in a home game tournament the other night with the money going to the top 4. A short stack was all in and my friend was on a draw on the flop when he bet out a player with a mid-sized stack.

    The short stack survived the all-in and the player with the mid-sized stack was upset (I think he folded middle pair). I don't blame him, it's hard to say what my friend was thinking. I'm pretty sure my friend was in the wrong here but when are there exceptions such that it is ok to bet with a short stack all-in?
  2. #2
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    The fact that this elimination would take it to bubble means that it is very much in the player's interest to peel for free, so I have no idea what he's thinking.

    I find it puzzling when people bluff in these spots in general, certainly when the side pot is zero. It's one of two things... a simple mistake (either thinking it's better to be HU than peeling for free, or simply forgetting there's someone all in), or a display of aggression that is intended to either tilt someone or to lure someone into misusing the information in later hands.

    Here, because of the structure, it's just plain stupid. Which, I might add, I'm fine with. I want to be playing against people making mistakes.

    * edit -

    There's one more reason for doing this, and I think it's probable... deliberately bloating the pot in the event he hits. If it's nut flush draw, then maybe I can see the value in this. But still, I'd be more interesting in increasing the probability of an elimination.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 03-21-2016 at 03:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    Def can be okay, it really depends on side pots and exact stack sizes and exact holdings though so hard to answer without that but generally seems fine since it's not even the nut bubble.

    Only times it's generally bad to bluff when there's no side pots is when you have very little equity even vs the allin guy - that's pretty dumb
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

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  4. #4
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    But the whole point of bluffing is to steal the pot without showdown. When someone goes all in pre and there's two calls, showdown is inevitable.

    If there's a side pot, then bluffing has value, but we must factor in that we are still competing for the main pot. When you consider the value of an elimination, it makes even less sense to stab at pots like this.

    I can just about see the logic in betting ace high, because it's reasonable that we then get HU in the lead. But that still seems marginal at best, because short stack will always be live, eating away at our equity.

    The only time I think it can be +ev is if we have nut flush draw either to control or bloat the pot, but that would be villain dependant.

    Generally, I'm not bluffing when there's a shortie all in. Checking down makes more sense in nearly all cases, imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    There are just too many variables that can shift our play one way or the other.

    Example, you're CL and dominating the FT on the bubble, SS with 1bb is allin and some 20bb reg flats too. Since you should be abusing the midstacked regs on the bubble, it's in your best interest to keep the 1bb stack alive. So you shove, 20bb has to fold everything but KK+, and you profit and keep on crushing the bubble.

    Other scenario where you're midstack and aggro CL folds, shorty goes allin and another midstack calls him, you call down too. It's in both of your best interets here (as midstacks) to eliminate shorty, end the bubble, and not get abused by the chipleader.

    Scenarios can also go on infinitely depending on stack sizes, holdings, dynamics, pay jumps, etc. LOL
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

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  6. #6
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    It's in both of your best interets here (as midstacks) to eliminate shorty, end the bubble, and not get abused by the chipleader.
    So you wouldn't bet, you'd check down, unless you have value against the fellow midstack.

    Granted, as dominant stack at bubble, yeah you might want to keep the shortie around. That's fair enough. But usually I want the elimination more than I want to risk chips to take air HU for the main pot.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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