Confessions of a poker degenerate

As many of you might already know, I recently made the biggest score of my life by taking third place in the FTOPS Main Event for a little over $150,000. I have already requested to withdraw the bulk of these winnings and my wife and I are planning on setting aside a good chunk to pay taxes and the rest to use as a down payment for our first house. Getting this money offline and into my bank account so quickly has added significance for me because it ensures that I will not donk it off. Because, in case you did not gather this from the title of this article, I am a poker degenerate.

On a forum that so strongly advocates good bankroll management, this is not a confession that I am proud of. In fact, it is very embarrassing. I am a smart, well educated guy. I should not being donking off my bankroll. Yet every time that I have built my roll up, I have fallen back in my self-made trap and donked it off. So I am not writing this to beat my chest and brag about how even a degenerate can win a huge chunk of change. Instead, my hope is that this will be a cautionary tale and maybe, finally, will be the last kick in the ass that I truly need.

For those of you that do not know, I started playing poker about three years ago when I was still in law school. I managed to build a roll up to about $3k and proceeded to move up in stakes and donk it off. I repeated this process by building a roll up to between $3-5 k on numerous occasions only to donk it back off every single time. Then, last year I made my first big scores by winning a $30 rebuy on Paradise and getting deep in some other tourneys. By April of last year I had won over $20k…. and by April of this year I was down to $40 which I didn’t even know I had on UB. I was fortunate enough to turn that $40 back to over $15k. But then, just this past week, I donked off 2/3 of that roll by losing over $10k playing 10/20 and 15/30 limit heads up. So those are the facts. But the facts are not as important as the why. Why do I constantly do this?

I think my biggest reasons for falling into my trap are that I hate to lose, and when I do lose I have a huge desire to make back my losses IMMEDIATELY!! So instead of following a rationale bankroll management, I do the opposite and move up in stakes. And when that doesn’t work I chase my losses. And when I lose a lot, I can’t sleep well, and then I wake up and the first and only thing I think of is getting my losses back, so I add more tables but I keep playing poorly since I am tired, and soon I am busto. I have done this process so many times it is sickening, and I know it is maddening to the other players out there who support me. But the cold, hard facts of the matter are that each time I have given myself a roll, I have proceeded to give the majority of it back. And that is just plain scary because now, even after withdrawing so much, I have a big bankroll and I don’t want to give it back but my past evidence and behavior tends to show that I will.

So the question now is what can I do to ensure that I won’t do it again? One of the things I am going to do is e-mail support at my sites and ask them if they can give me access only to playing MTTs. Another thing I am going to do is announce my roll to the players I chat with on a nightly basis to ensure that I am not playing in anything that I am not staked for. If that fails, I am probably going to have someone else maintain my roll and only give me enough to play with on a daily basis. And I am also open for any other suggestions. Because enough is enough and even though it extremely embarrassing and difficult to ask for – I need help.

I'd be careful about e-mailing any sites to get them to limit your access because they might just cut you off completely. Ask 'rilla about his Party experience if you want to know how hard it is to get your access restored.

I'd suggest keeping an FTR blog with a running b/r total (an honest one) so we can get on your case when you're playing out of your roll. It's a question of exrecising some self-discipline so discipline yourself to keep a record and voluntarily make yourself accountable to the people at FTR that care about you.

Char, asking them to control you will not stop the beast within. You need to find ways to keep yourself accountable. Warpe is right, start a blog, OP or thread detailing BR and tourneys entered and played. Don't dick around, you can do more, why settle for less? Do you want to be the next "That guy who scored one big lucky tourney, and now plays with a $40 bankroll."
What's teh roll going to be? how many tourneys are you going to play? And what is the Buyins?

[quote="Trainer_jyms"]Char, asking them to control you will not stop the beast within.quote]

qft

I am having trouble coming up with suggestions that aren't "Start believing the math." Having someone watch the money may help short term and maybe something will snap in your brain.

Does your wife know about this problem and have you discussed it?
Do you trust her to babysit your bankroll and give you a monthly/weekly stipend to play with. I caution that if your problem becomes worse it can negatively impact your marriage so think long and hard about this option.

Ask around for a lawyer that does trusts. Set up a consultation and state your goals/needs. Invest your remaining bankroll in the trust and have the trustee pay you out of it. Then your money will be working in investments and not sitting on a poker site collecting dust and being donked off and you can get effective management by a third party in accordance with the terms of the trust that can be set up as you see fit. The trustee would save the hassle of dealing with your wife on this issue.

TALK TO A PROFESSIONAL. Go see a shrink. Folks on FTR are not remotely qualified to address this problem.

I've always had the opposite problem. I'm a huge life nit and I don't have the stomach for losing thousands of dollars in a bad week. I constantly limit my potential by playing over-rolled. In two years of playing poker I've made a hair under 50K while never having a downswing of more than 3K. It makes me want to smack myself when I think about how much more money I could have made if I grew a pair.

Recently I've finally gotten over myself and started playing at the right level for my bankroll. You can decide for yourself if my system would work for you too. What I did was I looked at the PokerStars and FullTilt clients and made a list of all the daily tournaments that are at my level (I have 12K online right now): 20R's, 30R's, 50F's, and 100F's. 11R's and 30F's are OK too if they have big fields. I realized that there are enough of these tournaments, that I can play as many tables as I want without having to play anything lower or higher. So, I play these tournaments and nothing else. I'm not sure how much money you are keeping online, but maybe you can try this for a couple of weeks and see how it works out for you.

Sticking to MTT's is a good start but it's not enough. You need to stop taking shots at 500F's and 109R's. Playing the main event on a 10K bankroll was yet another bad decision that happened to work out great for you but you have to make sure it doesn't reinforce bad habits.

Originally Posted by SteveO

TALK TO A PROFESSIONAL. Go see a shrink. Folks on FTR are not remotely qualified to address this problem.

I also disagree with this advice because of the general stigma gambling has in our society. I suspect the majority of non-poker-players are just going to tell him to quit while he's ahead or something similarly stupid. They're going to look at his history of repeatedly going busto as proof that he's not a winning player. They won't understand the difference the way people here do.

The folks on here are enablers. He just admitted that he knows all about BR management etc.... but it doesn't matter. They say everyone goes busto at least once - but over and over and over is a major leak in his head.

Just publicly disclosing your money management will not fix the problem unless and until you get to the root of the money management problem in his head ie. can't stomach a loss and chasing losses.

I'm not saying compulsive gambler or losing player just saying somone not affiliated with the game can help turn off that switch that causes you to repeatedly donk off large amounts of money.

I'll also add that the more I think of it I would seriously look into a trust or some third party with a fiduciary responsibility to you. I would keep my wife out of it and I would't trust "freinds"/family with that kind of $. And even if the trust is there that kind of responsibility can serve to strain those relationships.

Since I don't feel like working I would add that I too have no balls when in comes to risking large sums and moving up stakes. Even when rolled for 3/6 I can't put 600 on 2 tables in a NL game. Maybe one day but that is outside my comfort zone.

I am also not a fan of MTT's. I've won lots of MTT's including rebuys and 100's but I think lifetime I am close to a net losing player or relatively small winner in MTT's. Stick to cash IMO.

The first time I went near bust was after a big win in an MTT. I then chased trying to repeat and I was spending $300.00 a day in MTT buy-ins. Well a few weeks go by with no final tables and I stood back to look at my roll and I quit for a couple months. Having a new baby helped but I just stopped.

You really have to maintain some respect for money even though the game requires you to have virtually no respect for it at times. Some folks don't earn $300 per week working full time and there I was donking it off every night. With that said I think you are most vulnerable now after that tremendous win than ever. I also think you realize it and making a serious effort to stay on track. Good luck.

Char, the fact that you took the initiative to address this right on the heels of your big win is a great thing. You recognize the problem and know you need to change your habits.

Before every session, just say to yourself, "I am not Rippy."

Me being a software nerd, I'd suggest running a script that shuts down cash game tables as a semi-solution as opposed to making the sites restrict your access to them.

Who doesn't get pissed after a long losing session? I definitely do. The hardest elements of winning poker are proper BR management and self-discipline, by far. I love poker, but late at night or after a series of loses I have to keep myself from playing. It's tough.

I don't think doing anything to automatically stop you from playing will really help anything. This sort of sounds like it's out of a crappy kung fu movie but ou need to address this huge mental leak yourself and defeat it from within.

I also don't think that avoiding professional advise is a bad idea because they might tell you to quit. IMO, the fact that you just hit a 150k cash doesn't mean you are "OK" to play - you got very lucky.

You should possibly make a list or something to read to yourself before and during a session. It'll add some objectivity to an emotional game.

I STRONGLY, STRONGLY, STRONGLY recommend this book. The entire emphasis is on the mental, emotional and psychological aspects of the game. The things that only get a passing mention in strategy books are explored in depth. If someone could only read two poker books, IMO they should be Theory of Poker and The Poker Mindset.

Everytime you get over $10k, you withdraw $9900 and start over. Sounds like this method alone would bank you >$30k/year

GL with whatever it takes to get on track

Maybe i have no business replying seeing that i am one of those nits who plays way overrolled, but i did stay in a holiday inn last night!

Seriously though, someone mentioned enablers, but enablers are people who would consistently bail you out if you donked off your electric bill, and pat you on the back and say poor poor you, whereas there may very well be people on this forum who can help you who are not enablers.

I have a little experience here, although my problem was drugs, cocaine mostly. Bottom line, seeking advice from people who have been there is the best thing you can do, imo. School taught geeks are just that, school taught, and if you are anything like me, you will always have the thought in the back of your mind that he/she doesn't have a clue cause they haven't been there, and you will probably be correct. Would you read a book by someone who actually was successful playing poker, or someone who learned it in a book but never played?

Having other people hold your money, isn't much different than if i had had other people hold my drugs. It wouldn't have worked, for as soon as i had the chance, it would be off to the races again. Simply bringing the subject up, and admitting you need some help with the issue is what is called the first step, admitting to yourself that you have a problem. Now you just need to find some people you trust, who have been thru what you have, and can give you some good solid advice as to what they did, and how they were able to overcome.

And always remember, talking to the Man upstairs doesn't hurt either

As good as everyone on FTR is, I think you need to handle this issue completely with people you know and trust in real life. Talk with your wife, talk with a lawyer, or talk with a best friend.

Setup goals, determine your problem, and find a way to make sure you stick to your goals.

Coming out and telling everyone on FTR was the first step, and it was a wise one. I've had the same problem as you before, and the key is identifying the problem, and working hard to minimize and eliminate it.

I think you have a good idea of what you have to do, and you can do it. Stick to a plan, and you will succeed my friend.

Coming out and telling everyone on FTR was the first step, and it was a wise one. I've had the same problem as you before, and the key is identifying the problem, and working hard to minimize and eliminate it.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...925&highlight=

It's a first step but he's taken it plenty (note title of post).

First, let me say congratulations for such an outstanding win. That's truly an amazing score and here's hoping you have many more.

Although I'm not 1/10th the player Chardrian is, I can relate to building up the bankroll and donking it all off like that. I've done that countless times (with much smaller rolls) and I have despaired of ever becoming a consistent winner.

I know we all like to pretend that poker isn't gambling, but the gambling part comes in when you are relying on big MTT scores for regular income and you hit the inevitable downswings and donking periods. Knowing when you're in danger of donking off is a good first step to solving the problem.

Good luck, and if you find a system that works for you, please share because I'd love to figure this out for myself.

Wow Char, I never knew you had this issue but I understand as it has been the bane of my poker "career" also, besides the many leaks I have to plug.

Fortunately, for me when I reach my limit (that is had enough of doing somethign stupid) I stop, this may not be the case for you. Have you ever looked into thinking maybe you have ADHD? I have been diagnosed with it after evaluating a lot of the things I do, that includes a lot of bad mistakes I've made in the game.

While I am not going to blame everything on a condition, being on Adderall now has increased my focus 100% and stopped impulses I weren't able to control before. Perhaps, your impulses to chase losses may be indication of a slighty bigger problem, or it may not. I am not a doctor but it's food for thought.

Good luck man, you really have to access what that money means to you, does recouping your losses mean more to you than losing more money? Be truthful with yourself and over come this burden.


P.S Try using www.pokertracking.com, to keep track of your sessions, and bankroll amount. Maybe that will help keep you in check.

Char read my blog about what bankroll management means to me: http://shystitalkspoker.wordpress.com/ and tell me what you think.

Congrats on your win!

I've never had this problem. My discipline is one of my greatest strengths. But here's some suggestions you just might find useful:

1. If you have a losing day, just think to yourself how many more of those days you can sustain before you break even off that

2. Save the hands from your cashes and relive your successes every time you get down on yourself. I have a list of hand histories of big pots I've won (some of them suckouts) and other great plays that I've pulled and when I feel down, I read through and start feeling better

3. I agree you should never play a cash game again. You've clearly identified how you're winning the money and how you're losing it. So just keep doing what has been making you money and stop doing what's been losing you money. It's a bonus that playing MTTs only will also limit your ability to blow your role

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Sticking to MTT's is a good start but it's not enough. You need to stop taking shots at 500F's and 109R's. Playing the main event on a 10K bankroll was yet another bad decision that happened to work out great for you but you have to make sure it doesn't reinforce bad habits.

He satted into ME via $50 f o

wtg, char. It really doesn't matter what everyone says, its just good that you got it out there.

If you want your friends at FTR to keep an eye on you, start an Operation for proper roll management and use Fortune's Operation Manager to show a summary of your Op progress in your signature (those sig banners), so everyone can see it in every one of your posts.

Whatever you do, thanks for sharing (as I'm sure you're helping a lot of others just by doing so) and best of luck to you, Adrian!

Seriously congrats on the finish.

I think your first step of withdrawing most of the money was very smart.
Now you can focuse on beating the psychological problem of losing you have.

ive had this since I started playing poker, but of course it has manifested itself in other ways.

Luckily for me I've always built my roll and cashed out right before things went downhill. Now I'm finally happy to leave a session down, well not happy, but I don't lose sleep and I don't feel the need to win it back immediately.

It's taken me the entirety of the year to get to this stage, and I'm sure you'll do it soon.

My advice is to take a decent length break from poker, spend some more time with your wife and stop thinking about it. Then go back with an amount of money in your br that allows you to play the MTT's you're accustomed to.

I think it was mcatdog who suggested making a list of list of the tourneys and only playing those. This is solid advice, and then after playing, log off. If you can do that for a month or so you should have it conquered. During that month however you'll need someone you trust to honestly keep track and tell you off if you even try to resort to cash or a higher buy-in.

Gratz on the win.

I don't think you need to be a qualified professional to deal with this sort of thing. Honestly, all a psychologist is gonna tell you is most of the stuff said here. Keep a record, set realistic goals and limits, discuss with your family and see if someone can help you keep an eye on it.

My advice would be to simply identify the thoughts and feelings you experience before you do something stupid. Just non-judgementally identifying them is the first step. After that, you can either better avoid getting into positions which cause those feelings (okay, maybe it isn't possiblet to just stop losing:P) or work out when you're about to do something silly and stop yourself before you have a chance.

Whatever you do do though, try to avoid guilt!

Originally Posted by Triptanes

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Sticking to MTT's is a good start but it's not enough. You need to stop taking shots at 500F's and 109R's. Playing the main event on a 10K bankroll was yet another bad decision that happened to work out great for you but you have to make sure it doesn't reinforce bad habits.

He satted into ME via $50 f o

So?

Originally Posted by SteveO

Does your wife know about this problem and have you discussed it?
Do you trust her to babysit your bankroll and give you a monthly/weekly stipend to play with.

I am the holder of the bankroll for my hubby when we gamble so if you wife is understanding, willing and can manage it well
this can be a solution .

ackthecat

my wife works too much for that to be an option.

Do you think your edge is so much larger than other players that you don't need to follow a (safe) roll mgmt strategy?

or

Do you know it isn't, but play above the roll anyway?

I assume it is the latter which is what makes it tough. I think you just have to go broke enough times where it starts being worth it not to do it - just like getting aces cracked, you always hate it but you don't throw the cat anymore.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Do you think your edge is so much larger than other players that you don't need to follow a (safe) roll mgmt strategy?

or

Do you know it isn't, but play above the roll anyway?

I assume it is the latter which is what makes it tough. I think you just have to go broke enough times where it starts being worth it not to do it - just like getting aces cracked, you always hate it but you don't throw the cat anymore.

Bingo, that's where I am at this very moment, I have went busto so many times that, practicing improper bankroll management just can't happen anymore, I mean what's the definition of insanity?

Doing the exact same thing over and over and expecting different results..

Chardrian, you're not alone on this. Judging by the replies, a lot of us here go busto repeatedly. We're good at poker but sh*t at bankroll management.

A lot of advice here, some of it very good. I like Drmcboy's succint analysis of the issue. You'll figure out what you need to do once you decide how long you can put up with the pain of repeatedly donking off a 5 figure bankroll.

My suggestion is that when you realise you are on a downward spiral, take a break, get some perspective and look at the big picture. Stepping away from the game in the first place is the hardest part, so perhaps keep something else you love doing (must-see videos, go for a run, video game, whatever) in reserve for those times.

Originally Posted by DBL0SVN

Chardrian, you're not alone on this. Judging by the replies, a lot of us here go busto repeatedly. We're good at poker but sh*t at bankroll management.

IMO, if you're good at poker and bad at bankroll management, then you're bad at poker.

It's like being a good driver but not being able to read traffic signs. Bad things are gonna happen.

Update time:

1 year ago today I won 6 figures. It was obviously an incredibly exciting time for my wife and I and it allowed us to buy our first house. It was also a somewhat stressful and scary time for myself because we decided that I would keep around $30k as my poker bankroll and from that I could take a shot at playing professionally. If I could make enough to sustain our lifestyle, I could keep playing; if not, it was time for me to get a "real job" and practice law again.

With my propensity to donk off 15-20k, it was touch and go to start. But it is now one year later and somehow I am still playing. The journey so far has not been easy - the downswings have brought my roll down to around 20k and forced me to move down in levels at least 3 different times. But each time that has happened, I have been able to resist the urge to try and get that 10k back by playing higher buy-in tourneys or high limit cash games. Although I am not out of the woods yet, my roll has increased by 50% and I am making monthly withdrawals, so the outlook is brighter now than it was one year ago.

I hope this post is not coming off as being a bragfest because I realize I am neither the best player nor have I made the most money this last year. I simply wanted to let everyone know that I have survived one year and as that old Bartles and James guy used to say "I thank you for your support."

woot! it is and should be a brag, you were always very honest about your failures so brag away imo

Hi gratz on the win...Brag all u want u deserve it man I also have a really big issue with bankroll management, i want that roll to grow really really fast. I used to 4 table, 55s turbos on FT within bankroll...When I started with poker i lost 3k$ but enden up having a br of 5.5k$ buy winning a few mtt in a very lucky way (down to 30 chips etc.)...I didnt really build up my br, it just happened to fall in my lap...So i withdrew it all coz of to much stress and shit...So now im back with 200$ dollar br and trying to build it up again, but all I keep thinking about my past br of 5k$. Im even thinking about borrowing the money instead of building it up...Do you guys have any advice for this?

Strip

Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie

Hi gratz on the win...Brag all u want u deserve it man I also have a really big issue with bankroll management, i want that roll to grow really really fast. I used to 4 table, 55s turbos on FT within bankroll...When I started with poker i lost 3k$ but enden up having a br of 5.5k$ buy winning a few mtt in a very lucky way (down to 30 chips etc.)...I didnt really build up my br, it just happened to fall in my lap...So i withdrew it all coz of to much stress and shit...So now im back with 200$ dollar br and trying to build it up again, but all I keep thinking about my past br of 5k$. Im even thinking about borrowing the money instead of building it up...Do you guys have any advice for this?

Strip

Ugh, borrowing to get your roll to $5k sounds like a recipe for disaster. If you have $5k of your own and it wouldn't hurt you to lose it then that's one thing. But if you're thinking about borrowing it to boost your roll then it doesn't sound like that money is expendible to you. And people are dicks when you owe them money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AJ0SkbPxAk

If you don't mind some outside thinking:

It sounds like you need less of a support group on ensuring you stay on track and not overplaying and more of a business plan.
Since you are playing (semi??) professionally, you might definitely benefit from talking with a business planner and have them help you outline business goals, financial restraints etc..
Maybe if you were looking at it from a business/work perspective you might see things differently.

Just a thought...