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bubbled in ftr tilt 250? right or wrong move?

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  1. #1

    Default bubbled in ftr tilt 250? right or wrong move?

    in the SB with 99 everyone folded but the button (short stack at table;but only 274 chips less than me).button shoves i was tempted to fold my 99 but made the call he had AA
  2. #2
    Was a UL situation - that's all.
  3. #3
    how many BBs did you have? what was the blind level? how many players left? what was the payout structure?

    all these things come into play when making decisions, so when you ask a question, we need these things to relate to and help decide what the best play is. if you had 10BBs or less then yeah, easy call. if you had 10-20..still prob +EV but maybe not, depends on a few of the things I mentioned above. if you had 20BBs+ then its a easy fold without specific reads.
    "The harder you work, the luckier you get." ~ courtesy of my fortune cookie from china king

    "One of the best pieces of advice I've ever read in this forum was three words long...

    bet fucking fold." Ong
  4. #4
    Full Tilt, 250/500 blinds, 50 ante No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 7 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.


    SB: 7,594 (15.2 bb)
    BB: 8,745 (17.5 bb)
    MP1: 19,226 (38.5 bb)
    MP2: 14,252 (28.5 bb)
    MP3: 8,947 (17.9 bb)
    CO: 8,916 (17.8 bb)
    Hero (BTN): 7,320 (14.6 bb)


    Preflop: Hero is BTN with A A
    4 folds, Hero raises to 7,270 and is all-in, SB raises to 7,544 and is all-in, BB folds


    Flop: (15,390) Q Q A (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    Turn: (15,390) 5 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: (15,390) 3 (2 players, 2 are all-in)


    Results: 15,390 pot
    Final Board: Q Q A 5 3
    SB showed 9 9 and lost (-7,320 net)
    Hero showed A A and won 15,390 (8,070 net)

    min cash was 24$. think it was an easy fold in that situation for him on quite a big bubble.Especially as the bigblind had him covered as well
    Last edited by Keith; 01-16-2015 at 04:13 AM.
  5. #5
    It's close IMO.
    If you play to win, you have to call. If you're happy with min-cash or 1-2 up, then fold.
    Folding pocket 9s a short stack against a button raise is pretty nitty. Bad luck he had aces.
  6. #6
    did you check stack sizes ? 14.6 bb isn't exactly a "short" stack , 15.2 and 3 guys with 17bb stacks , calling a shove on the bubble with 99 isn't a great play. effectively there's a blind steal between all our stacks. Also its a 3.30$ buyin and 24$ min cash . thats one hell of a bubble jump , its not as if its just about getting your buyin back like a normal min cash would be.
  7. #7
    Yes I did. Short stack as in "shortest stack".
    Because there are 4 players within 2-3 bb, I said it's close. You might play for more than
    just for first paid place, with rank 3-6 within reach. However, 14bb against a blind steal,
    a call with 99 is probably +EV. There is quite a bit in his range that we are ahead against,
    and only little that has us dominated. If you play for first, you have to take chances.

    BTW the OP called it short stack.
    But as quite often in fast structure tournaments, several people are in the red zone of say
    10-15bb at the same time, so standard rules don't apply. You may even slide below 10bb for
    the sake of moving up on the payout table. The last WSOP FT is an example.

    So it probably all comes down to reads, table dynamics, personal ambition and risk acceptance,
    wish to play a bit longer with friends a nice table chat, (and maybe alcohol consumption),
    whether you call or not.
  8. #8
    We all know the situation, we sit there with 99, and think that button is just trying to steal the blinds. But would button really take that risk so close to the money with 15BB left? It all depends on what read SB have on Button. I don't think I would make that call, as you can easily get back into the game fighting for the win with 15 BB left.
    The Time To Act Is Now...
  9. #9
    Like fuck would I be folding this against keith. He knows full well that we should be folding hands like this at this bubble, which in turn makes it a great move for him to be openshoving virutally his entire range... which makes him easily wide enough to make the call.

    But that's if it's me vs keith. I doubt he'd make this move against me with a marginal hand because he knows I'm stubborn enough to call hands like 99. So maybe I'd fold.

    Isn't poker wonderful?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    The call was ok since you were shortstack. It could be a little suspicious the btn push with 14bb, since I personally of the players open push having around 10-12bb. But if you had seen him open push with 14bb earlier then there's nothing to suspect. If on the other hand, you have seen that he opens to standard 2xbb, then you could suspecty}, but I agree with everyone that the call is really ok.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post


    Preflop: Hero is BTN with A A
    4 folds, Hero raises to 7,270 and is all-in, SB raises to 7,544 and is all-in, BB folds


    min cash was 24$. think it was an easy fold in that situation for him on quite a big bubble.Especially as the bigblind had him covered as well
    Are you trying to get him to fold 99? Having a shoving range here is fine, good probably. But AA shouldn't be in it.
  12. #12
    nope shoving for value . Had checked the password release thread reguularly in the runup to the event to answer questions and correlated his screename to FTR name and knew he wasnt an FTR reg ,so implied read of fishier than an FTR reg.M was 6.5 ish so seemed obvious shove with all my range here and had been shoving a fair bit already,so was likely to eventually run into a hand that would call me.
  13. #13
    I'd be shoving AA here, assuming I'd been shoving a lot and/or perceived the standard to be fishy. I think shifting from push/fold mode to regular opens with 14bb, I'd be worried it was going to look too strong. I'd only standard open if my stack had depleted to this size through being card dead, but I'd also be opening everything else at standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    I like a call here against someone shoving a wide range on the button, which I assume Keith is. I think I call with 88+,AQ+ in this spot, that may even be too nitty, it's been a long time since I've played pokers.
  15. #15
    chardrian's Avatar
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    I don't know what payouts are but this is a pretty standard shove with 99.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
    come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com
  16. #16
    from memory payouts were something like 22 33 44 60 97 156 and a $3.30 buyin
  17. #17
    Pretty tough call with 99. I feel like someone could easily open shove the button here with a lower pair who didn't want to be shoved on from a standard button open because the SB/BB definitely had stack sizes that could 3B shove. You would also have to decide if he's a player that would value shove the button here with a monster instead of min-ish betting to induce a shove. If he only min-ish opens a monster then I think the call is fine because it essentially takes AA,KK,QQ,(possibly JJ),AK out of his range then I think you are +ev vs the rest of his shoving hands: smaller pr, 1010,JJ?, 2 broadway cards...
  18. #18
    99 is a +EV call almost against all types of opponents. It's like a set up situation so don't worry about it.
  19. #19
    In this private tournaments i play for top2 so i can t fold 99. Maybe a lot of players want to make the money and they will fold this kind of hands. Last time at ftr on bubble i was verry aggressive, sure i had a big stack and a lot of tight players at my table.
  20. #20
    Eric's Avatar
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    Yeah, we don't want to make a habit of folding 99 in that spot.
  21. #21
    It feels pretty close, but the fact that it's a bubble with BB still to act I think you could maybe find a fold there. However if the button just standard opened, it's a 3-bet shove all day!
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kape View Post
    You could not call with 15 BB. If you have 10 big blinds, at least 13, then U could call
    deleted as this adds nothing that has not already been said throughout the thread and ignores the pertinent points regarding , stack sizes , being on the bubble , payout sizes and range vs range discussion together with it now being a 4 month old thread.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    deleted as this adds nothing that has not already been said throughout the thread and ignores the pertinent points regarding , stack sizes , being on the bubble , payout sizes and range vs range discussion together with it now being a 4 month old thread.
    How can you do a delete? That would be like the news not rerunning the news at 6:00pm and 10:00 pm just because of their mistaken notion that a majority of peeps watch at 5:00pm. kape is adding to the conversation, no different than a poll would show 8 people lean this way and 2 people lean that way. You delete 6 people and then the poll shows 2 people lean this way and 2 people lean that way and it looks like things are split down the middle when they are not.

    Risking my post being deleted, I have called and I have folded in this situation to success and failure. Your style of play got you as far as you did, so I would not change it up as it looks like it is getting you to a good point. If the guy had done the same play to me 4 previous hands in a row, yes I am going to jump on it sometime, because some players just mess with what they think is a weak player. I probably would have folded in this situation unless it was 5 minute blinds. 5 minute blinds, I am calling. 15 minute blinds, meant I could last a while longer, I'd fold, but I have gone both ways in a game, well, over several games.

    p.s. missed the being a 4 month old thread, but sometimes people do get news 6 months old. Like is Bob Barker passed away. I can see if a guy was spamming then you delete the thread and say hey, spamming a 4 month old thread is spamming on FTR. Then they should not add, oh, Bob Barker was a pet lover to the conversation because it is spamming.

    Keith, I think we need threads closed if it is too late to add to them.
    Last edited by eberetta1; 05-14-2015 at 09:43 AM.
    It takes 2 years to learn to talk, but a lifetime to learn when to shut up.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by eberetta1 View Post
    How can you do a delete? That would be like the news not rerunning the news at 6:00pm and 10:00 pm just because of their mistaken notion that a majority of peeps watch at 5:00pm. kape is adding to the conversation, no different than a poll would show 8 people lean this way and 2 people lean that way. You delete 6 people and then the poll shows 2 people lean this way and 2 people lean that way and it looks like things are split down the middle when they are not.
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...us-198563.html . In this case the deleted post was one of a series of hyperposted posts some of which were also deleted for the same reasons. The tightening up of qualified member status is there to promote "quality" forum posts. low content posts rehashing what has already been said as part of a hyyper post series gives the impression that they are being made solely to gain entry to the value added money events .

    Risking my post being deleted, I have called and I have folded in this situation to success and failure. Your style of play got you as far as you did, so I would not change it up as it looks like it is getting you to a good point. If the guy had done the same play to me 4 previous hands in a row, yes I am going to jump on it sometime, because some players just mess with what they think is a weak player. I probably would have folded in this situation unless it was 5 minute blinds. 5 minute blinds, I am calling. 15 minute blinds, meant I could last a while longer, I'd fold, but I have gone both ways in a game, well, over several games.

    p.s. missed the being a 4 month old thread, but sometimes people do get news 6 months old. Like is Bob Barker passed away. I can see if a guy was spamming then you delete the thread and say hey, spamming a 4 month old thread is spamming on FTR. Then they should not add, oh, Bob Barker was a pet lover to the conversation because it is spamming.

    Keith, I think we need threads closed if it is too late to add to them.
    There is no need to lock the thread as people could still add pertinent discussion as I outlined in the reason for deleting the post. If he had included range information with equities etc then its adding to the thread. He didn't . that post could probably have been posted in any thread in this subforum showing how vague and general it was.
  25. #25
    Sounds great Keith. Even though I may be an old timer on this forum, I like to make sure I am within forum rules.
    I try to stay within the lines, have been pulled over too many times for being over the fog line.
    It takes 2 years to learn to talk, but a lifetime to learn when to shut up.
  26. #26
    in my opinion this is an easy fold. i think in this situation it is a big chance that the button has 2 overcards or 10 10+ so your range
    is between 20 and about 55% to make a call against a stack that is almost 100% of your stack and at the bubble play. coinflipping for
    15BB so far in a tournament is never a good idea and you also take the risk for a 20% call. lets say that when your stack was 3 times bigger than the Button you could take the risk for a gamble to win when you think you are against ak or aq. shoving is different than calling.
    Last edited by dutch77; 05-16-2015 at 11:21 AM.
  27. #27
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    I think it was the correct decision , taking into account that you want to play to win. 99 is a very good hand for this situation where the opponent moves all in on the button with a large range of hands
  28. #28
    In general, easy call considering that there's going to be probably good time until someone busts + you get a nice stack if you win (I'd . UL. If button would have very tight range and no understanding of how tight blinds call then it might do for fold.
  29. #29
    One of the most interesting situations I have read recently.
    1st, from the button point of view, why did he had to shove with Aces, which make a lot of good hands from blinds to fold. Bad play I believe! Standard play here might be button mini-raise, SB shove and button call, which brings the same result.
    99, AQ is not good enough to call a 15BB shove from a tight player at button, you have to be cautious because the button might want to get through the bubble, why he has to risk 15BB just to steal the pot? Personally I'm always respect my opponents at final table.

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