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best to raise 2x or 2.5 the BB if you want to steal the blin

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  1. #1

    Default best to raise 2x or 2.5 the BB if you want to steal the blin

    have been raising 2xbb and have been getting a lot of good blinds steals lately.

    I figure there is no use to raise 2.5x the bb if there folding for 2xbb.

    Do you find that 2xbb gets the job done these days or are you running into tournaments that you have to use 2.5xbb?

    I use to play the $2 buy ins and i needed to raise about 3.5 to steal. I recently jumped up to $20 buy ins and its a shock to see them all folding to 2xbb. I have only played 12 of these so maybe im just running lucky into a bunch of nits. My average attempt to to steal per round is 5 and i get away with it about 4 out of the 5 times. This is normally about mid range of the tournament when i try to start stealing, when the blinds hit 50/100 all the way until the bubble burst. Once the money hits its a different ballgame.

    Is $20 buy ins always this nitty?
  2. #2
    a min raise will only get the job done versus nits. Try that into lsillyness into a TAGG; you'd be screwed because you give all sorts of odds.

    2.5-3 is more appropriate.


    "Gotta run well eventually."
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Im_new
    a min raise will only get the job done versus nits. Try that into lsillyness into a TAGG; you'd be screwed because you give all sorts of odds.

    2.5-3 is more appropriate.
    I dont have much experience in the $20 buy ins so maybe things might change. I wanted to see if the guys who play the $20 buy ins here have any feed back on this subject. Thank you.
  4. #4
    My average attempt to to steal per round is 5
    you're opening 5/9 pots?


    a min raise will only get the job done versus nits. Try that into lsillyness into a TAGG; you'd be screwed because you give all sorts of odds.
    You still give 'all sorts of odds' raising 2.5x. Also what you are saying is people will play a bunch of bad hands against you when they are OOP since you only raised 2x - hands they would have folded for 2.5x . Are we sure that's a bad thing?
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    My average attempt to to steal per round is 5
    you're opening 5/9 pots?


    a min raise will only get the job done versus nits. Try that into lsillyness into a TAGG; you'd be screwed because you give all sorts of odds.
    You still give 'all sorts of odds' raising 2.5x. Also what you are saying is people will play a bunch of bad hands against you when they are OOP since you only raised 2x - hands they would have folded for 2.5x . Are we sure that's a bad thing?
    No, I'm saying that a TAGG has more opportunity to be aggressive against you when your raise is puny. For instance, against these min-raisers, I 3bet my BB lightly because it's relatively cheap. Also, I call the minbet pf, and open on PLENTY of flops OOP because it was cheaper than playing a "real pot." It's easy chips to resteal most of the time.

    The smaller the villian's raise, the more a TAGG player in the blinds benefits.

    Yet, of course, this pf bet sizing thing is an art. what works for you may not work for me. But, if I'm in the BB, and you're min-raising to steal, expect to commit more chips if I have the average stack.
  6. #6
    all of that seems to assume you're always in against a steal. What if it's a real hand? I think we can all agree it's bad to steal with 2bb raises if your value raises are 3bb.

    You are right that 3 betting is cheaper, but don't forget that min raises are cheaper to start.

    assuming you raise 3 BBs instead of 2, if this is true:

    The smaller the villian's raise, the more a TAGG player in the blinds benefits.
    why not raise 4x?
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    all of that seems to assume you're always in against a steal. What if it's a real hand? I think we can all agree it's bad to steal with 2bb raises if your value raises are 3bb.

    You are right that 3 betting is cheaper, but don't forget that min raises are cheaper to start.

    assuming you raise 3 BBs instead of 2, if this is true:

    The smaller the villian's raise, the more a TAGG player in the blinds benefits.
    why not raise 4x?
    4x, especially if it's not your standard pfr amount, is too big during the middle and late stages of the tournament when you should be stealing more, don't you think? Earlier in the tournie when your M is high and more people are willing to get the pot, you'll need a 4-5xbb bet to narrow the number of callers to 1 or 2, hopefully. Later, when we should be stealing more often, this is usually less of an issue because you'll have all sorts of stacks, many of whom see it too expensive. That's the reason for adjusting your pfr amount as the tourny goes on. I'm not saying 2xbb raises are HORRIBLE, but I'd be careful using them. I admit that they can be valuable against many players though.

    And to think of it another way, you asked why wouldnt we want bad hands to call us and play us OOP. (The obvious answer being that we are trying to STEAL for a reason and take the pot PF.) Then you seemed to be making that argument that 2xbb and 2.5xbb pfr will have similar affects. Well, if they have the similar affects, wouldn't you like to get more in the pot pf with 2.5xbb raises?
  8. #8
    You win the same when they fold. When they re raise, you lose less. When they call, the pot is smaller pre flop. I'm not seeing any math that makes your way better.

    FWIW Once antes kick in I usually raise 2.5x as well.

    Your first post was very limited - as you yourself have posted since there are lots of different ways of thinking about pre flop. Esp when stacks are deep there is no one right answer. If you see a table will fold to 2x raises and you refuse to even consider doing that instead because 2.5x is more 'appropriate' you're doing yourself a disservice.
  9. #9
    The main point here is we don't vary the size of our raises based on whether or not we're raising with a real hand or if it's just a steal.

    I do vary the size of my raises slightly based on a lot of factors, such as:

    1. Position. Sometimes I'll raise more with a big hand in EP simply because it's harder to extract value postflop.

    However, the minraise UTG is widely feared. So I sometimes minraise KK/AA and throw in the occasional minraise on a tight table with 22 or JTs (although these are usually a quick muck).

    Sometimes, however, minraising from other positions will tilt the shit out of people. Button raises obviously get reshoved a lot by the blinds or by limpers and a lot of people seem genuinely disrespectful of the button minraise.

    2. Table dynamics: Did someone just win or lose a titanic pot? Do the blinds call wide? Of course, the biggest decision here is not the size of the raise, but the question of how much you want to raise at all.

    3. Randomness: Sometimes I will raise 2x, 2.25x, 2.5x, 2.7x, etc.

    What kind of hands have I shown lately, and what were the size of the raises I made? If I just raised 2.5x with AA and busted someone, I'll raise 2.5x the next time I raise.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  10. #10
    i go around 2.5x but i size the #s based on convenience

    so if blinds are 2000-4000 i'll make it 9999
    if blinds are 500-1000 i'll make it 2555 etc
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    Esp when stacks are deep there is no one right answer. If you see a table will fold to 2x raises and you refuse to even consider doing that instead because 2.5x is more 'appropriate' you're doing yourself a disservice.
    Hence,

    Quote Originally Posted by Im_new
    I admit that they can be valuable against many players though.
    We are both making the same arguments pretty much. You lean more toward min-raising. I lean more toward 2.5x raising. I just don't think 2x raising is all that great, probably because of my full ring background. But, apparently, I need to try it more often in my MTT game.
  12. #12
    In the late stages of an MTT, the BB almost always has odds to call, especially with antes. But SPRs are much lower so every preflop decision is much more important. That's why stealing and restealing is even more important in MTTs than cash games.

    Luckily, your postflop decisions are somewhat easier. You generally don't have to worry about laying down TPTK or overpairs with 20 BBs behind.

    Your reads are important here. If you have 30 BBs and there is a tight player in the BB with 14, minraises can be effective. If the BB has 80 BBs and is playing every pot, then maybe not so much.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  13. #13
    I almost never min raise. re read your first post in the thread. You make firm statements around really fuzzy questions. I was only trying to get you to open yourself up to other possibilities.
  14. #14
    agreed, and thanks. I needed that.


    "Gotta run well eventually."
  15. #15

    Default Re: best to raise 2x or 2.5 the BB if you want to steal the

    Quote Originally Posted by quadaces9999
    I have only played 12 of these so maybe im just running lucky into a bunch of nits.
    Probably this. Minraising is about the worst thing you can do in an MTT IMO. Rarely are you going to build a good pot with it and it doesnt really do much for deception. I think all around you just lose value.

    Blind stealing with a 2x is a sign of someone who doesnt know what they are doing or is scared to risk their chips. By all means keep doing it but I would be shocked to see if pay off in the long run.
  16. #16
    mixing it up is the way to go... like they said, 2.x .. of course Min raises are great too if you're at a table with a bunch of players who only play AA / KK
  17. #17
    I read a lot on mixing up your play etc. ( Read it in HOH too.) Does this apply to the early stages of micro MTT's en MTSNG's? I usually stay with the standard. In my level (yes, it's low) nobody really seems to notice these subtle changes in play.
  18. #18
    i'm giving this miniraise thing a try.... no whammy.


    "Gotta run well eventually."

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