$75, 2nd pair in 3b pot

No specific reads on villain, hasn't done anything out of the ordinary. Lets not talk about whether pre is good or not

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 30/60 Blinds 7 Ante (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t4569)
UTG+1 (t5000)
MP1 (t7606)
MP2 (t5036)
Hero (t9763)
Button (t7585)
SB (t4217)
BB (t24532)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, J
4 folds, Hero bets t150, 1 fold, SB raises to t450, 1 fold, Hero calls t300

Flop: (t1016) Q, 7, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t1016) 8 (2 players)
SB bets t570, Hero calls t570

River: (t2156) 6 (2 players)
SB bets 1225, Hero ???

I found this hand really hard to think about without knowing anything about the villain. Usually I am not calling a 3-bet with this hand without a read.

Thorne and I discussed this hand and I think we're leaning towards fold. My calling station instincts wanted to call at first, but I can't think of enough hands that we beat that would take this line.

The draws missed so I guess those are the hands we beat. KTss, AKss, ATss seem like good candidates for a c/push. I doubt he ever plays AK or TT like this.

Hands that beat us that might take this line? AsA, KsK, flopped sets, 88. Maybe AJ?

This spot is so marginal, it doesn't seem worth it to call even though we're getting a good price.

I don't hate calling but I think folding is better. Would much prefer calling river if he had bet flop then checked turn.

I'm not eager to call here, but when you call the turn bet, it seems like you ought to be prepared to call a reasonably sized river bet if the river looks like a blank, which it does. I also wonder if it wouldn't have been better to bet the flop, and possibly get a better idea where you stand, especially given you were willing to make the ~half-pot call after a seemingly blank turn.

What do other people think about calling river if villain had bet flop, checked turn?

I agree with drmcboy in that I'd be much more willing to call.

You shouldnt be calling turn without being prepared to also call a safe river (which this is).

Without trying to get into preflop action, lets just say your hand is just a bluffcatcher at this point (barely even that), and you should be folding turn if you didnt plan on calling river.

Fold turn > Call turn/river > Call turn Fold river

Originally Posted by Sykedupp

You shouldnt be calling turn without being prepared to also call a safe river (which this is).

Why? Is it related to the strength of our actual hand? Or do you think we should call/call with any bluffcatcher?

Okay since no one has posted lately I'll reveal my secret. I was the SB in the hand and I wanted to see what people thought of a check, bet, bet line. Out of the 12 people that posted about the hand, 11 said they would fold. Villain didn't have KJs...I picked that because it was the best bluffcatcher he could have.

If almost everyone wants to fold the best bluffcatcher, I clearly need to do something different. What do you think?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 30/60 Blinds 7 Ante (8 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t4569)
UTG+1 (t5000)
MP1 (t7606)
MP2 (t5036)
CO (t9763)
Button (t7585)
Hero (SB) (t4217)
BB (t24532)

Hero's M: 28.88

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, A
4 folds, CO bets t150, 1 fold, Hero raises to t450, 1 fold, CO calls t300

Flop: (t1016) Q, 7, J (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (t1016) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets t570, CO calls t570

River: (t2156) 6 (2 players)
Hero ...

if villian had KJ he shoulda called you off, but it seems more likely he has like AK or KT, possibly some kind of missed FD too.

If you check river, you turn your hand into a bluffcatcher too which can be good vs aggro villians who will bet missed draws here. But you said you had no reads, so valuebetting is my standard.

and if you're villian, and you have a made hand here (KJ, etc) then calling turn folding river sucks because Hero's range shouldnt change between turn and river (Hero should be firing with bluffs and missed draws just as often as with big hands). This makes your bet with AJ even better because your range "should" be air or nuts. Throwing some thin value hands in there helps merge your range

Hero should be firing with bluffs and missed draws just as often as with big hands

should be isn't the same as will, I don't think your standard read should be someone is playing close to perfectly.

It also seems very unlikely he (we, the 3 better, w/e) made a draw on the turn, or that we had one on the flop but decided to wait until the turn and river to bluff after 3 betting. it makes more sense that we had such a huge hand on the flop we decided to trap or that we're goofy and wanted to see a safe turn before committing to our AA/KK/AQ.

@ juan I don't like the 3 bet (this is a good hand to flat imo), but given we're here with no read I don't think there is a huge difference between a lead and c/c, some people are going to wtf look you up and will never bluff and vice versa.

drmcboy do you like flatting with AQ too?

I think your totally right about it being unlikely that we would decide to check the flop with a draw or some total air hand. We can rep a ton of good hands so it's pretty natural to decide to take a stab on the flop. I'm starting to think it might be smart to never take a ck, bet, bet line in this situation (with any hand in my range). ya? no?

You played good up to the river, I'd check-call now because you took such a weak line he'll bluff with all sorts of stuff that won't pay off this value bet.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

You played good up to the river, I'd check-call now because you took such a weak line he'll bluff with all sorts of stuff that won't pay off this value bet.

this is pretty much exactly what I would do.

or bet like 1500. but i definitely think the prior line is superior. villain can level himself into betting so many hands he should just check back here.

Originally Posted by fjuanl

drmcboy do you like flatting with AQ too?

I think your totally right about it being unlikely that we would decide to check the flop with a draw or some total air hand. We can rep a ton of good hands so it's pretty natural to decide to take a stab on the flop. I'm starting to think it might be smart to never take a ck, bet, bet line in this situation (with any hand in my range). ya? no?

yes, in general if I 3 bet here it will be a bluff with no read/history going. AJ/AQ are such good hands to flop TP and get two streets and or c/r semi bluff with overs + gutter.

I pretty much always c bet after 3 bet unless i have the deck crippled

I am fine with the 3-bet pre (I am fine with calling too).

I think we should take either a bet flop bet turn line or take a check flop, check turn line.

If we take this check flop, bet turn line, I am ambivalent about the river - on one hand I think we should follow through since we should be following through with our bluffs as well (and hope he will hero it off with like some TT- hand), but on the other hand I like the check/call river line since it induces the bluff.