$15 AQ late

No reads on villain I just got moved here. He used his time bank for a good deal before flatting the 3bet. What do you do pre? If you are 3betting what size? Flop play as played?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3000/6000 Blinds 750 Ante (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t93230)
Button (t104360)
Hero (SB) (t249046)
BB (t88200)
UTG (t176352)
UTG+1 (t140324)
MP1 (t319112)
MP2 (t107226)

Hero's M: 16.60

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 bets t18700, 4 folds, Hero raises to t48999, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30299

Flop: (t109998) J, 4, 3 (2 players)
Hero?

I'm not going to 3bet here vs an unknown in EP. I call to see a flop OOP, assuming that I know the BB isn't too active (he may be looking to squeeze lightly, I imagine).

seems like the only thing you can do on this board is b/f. If called, reevaluate the turn, but most likely it'll be a c/f situation.

cannot bet fold with these stacks. Also BB squeezing light would be a great thing for us.

hand is good, now shove.

yeah, b/f is bad. I didn't pay enough attn there

and I phrased myself wrongly. I meant that calling here is better because the BB may be squeezing lightly. If he's only calling more often, I no longer like just flatting here.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

cannot bet fold with these stacks. Also BB squeezing light would be a great thing for us.

hand is good, now shove.

shoving for 2xpot seems like a bit much though. We are only called by hands that beat us, right?

dude look at the stack sizes

There is no question here. 3bet pre with the intention of open pushing all flops is pretty much the only way to play. I'd size my 3bet a bit more say to 60.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

dude look at the stack sizes

DAMN ME! lmao

Villian will only have 90k behind.... gotcha.

i agree i would have done same thing preflop, kinda iffy on the flop though, i guess i would come out betting, 2 overs and the ace high flush, but if they call would you put them on a jack or flush draw

Originally Posted by rllngn

i agree i would have done same thing preflop, kinda iffy on the flop though, i guess i would come out betting, 2 overs and the ace high flush, but if they call would you put them on a jack or flush draw

this is still my line of thinking as well. If he's calls us PF, he's ahead of us. (come on, really, what are you putting him on?) And if he's remotely competent, he's calling this shove with most of his call 3bet range, considering this flop does nothing for our pf 3bet range. (Though, honestly, if i were him, I would have either folded or shoved over PF.)

In other words, a HUGE part of his calling range here beats us. But the pros around here are saying that it's the best move. Maybe there is some over-arching tournie detail I don't understand here.

I like a c/f for the reasons above. It is borderline passive, but seriously, what is he calling your 3bet with that he will not call your shove with here?

I think flatting and small 3-betting are both significantly worse than shoving preflop.

This villain is LOLbad for cold-calling this much off preflop -- his range includes a lot more crap, speculative hands, Ax, small pairs than you think. Luckily he can't have the nut flush draw. The pot is too ginormous to C/F and a cbet commits us to the pot.

Originally Posted by baudib

This villain is LOLbad for cold-calling this much off preflop -- his range includes a lot more crap, speculative hands, Ax, small pairs than you think. Luckily he can't have the nut flush draw. The pot is too ginormous to C/F and a cbet commits us to the pot.

Idk... I'm not super-convinced. (no trappie? possibly brilliant. Ax?!?! ummmm...I'd need a read before I can believe that. Sure, he is, at least, somewhat bad for just calling. But that doesn't make him loose-passive right off of the back. Shall we forget he's raising from UTG+1?)

If you think he's raising hands like AT and small pocket pairs that he may fold or incorrectly call with, pushing has value. If not, I like seeing a flop since a 3-bet would basically commit us preflop.

On this flop, I can't see us beating any hand he called with, and I don't see him folding, so I like a c/f.

I think you were probably beat. I mean AQ's good til you see a flop without a Q. It's pretty much a fold for me with the J on the board. Considering he raised pre, he most likely has a hand like JJ AJ KJs/o or even QQ KK. Regardless of how long you had been at the table. Unless you know he's a pot fiend.

Your clearly commited to a 4bet shove if you 3bet. If he flats a 3bet, he barely has any chips behind...and you should really never be folding. So it seems like 3betting like this will just set up awkward spots. The guy only has 23BB's, I'd just shove preflop without any reads

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I think flatting and small 3-betting are both significantly worse than shoving preflop.

I found myself in a similar position last night in a 3$ rebuy with about 40 left in the game, Hero's M about 9, villain very similar stack. He's a 19/18 tag dude, has been raising quite a bit pretty much regardless of position, I shoved over his UTG+1 3x raise with AQs and went up vs aces. I guess I might have dodged the aces with a flat but a 3 bet is worth about 2/5 my stack and I'm quite committed anyways. Is there really any way to avoid this or is a shove still the right play in this case?

am i bad for folding pre?

i hate playing ace queen for that reason what do you want to do with that flop, of course with money in the pot the continuation bet is inevitable. like the previous replier said most likely if you bet here its going to be two possible calls and back to you to eaither fold or get your self stuck in the hand further.

Originally Posted by Renton

am i bad for folding pre?

If villain gained his stack by only playing premiums and no one noticed, then no. Otherwise I think AQ beats most of the range that UTG+1 would open with given his stack. Other thing to consider is the shorty in the BB left to act who might be willing to gambool at this point.

Originally Posted by AlKo4g7iC

i hate playing ace queen for that reason what do you want to do with that flop, of course with money in the pot the continuation bet is inevitable. like the previous replier said most likely if you bet here its going to be two possible calls and back to you to eaither fold or get your self stuck in the hand further.

Point made earlier in the thread is that you should not have to worry about what comes on the flop if your 3 bet size is good.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I think flatting and small 3-betting are both significantly worse than shoving preflop.

Is this because we are ahead of his range and we gain value from hands we wouldnt otherwise get by him calling our AI? Basically maximizing our value?