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$134 AJo SB.

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  1. #1
    dombo's Avatar
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    Default $134 AJo SB.

    Is this a shove pre or a normal sized 3bet? (what sizing?)
    Felt a bit moneyscared at that moment tbh,in a $22 I would try to get in pre.

    Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 500/1,000 Blinds (9 handed) - Cake Poker Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

    Button (t29,651)
    Hero (SB) (t23,641)
    BB (t96,096)
    UTG (t12,240)
    UTG+1 (t33,374)
    MP1 (t38,004)
    MP2 (t101,195)
    MP3 (t37,906)
    CO (t49,222)

    Hero's M: 15.76

    Preflop: Hero is SB with A, J
    2 folds, MP1 calls t1,000, 1 fold, MP3 raises t2,567, ?
  2. #2
    If I 4-bet, I would jam. Usually I just jam or fold this spot, although I guess sometimes I might call or 4-bet less than all-in if I have some specific reads.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  3. #3
    As bad as it sounds I don't mind folding. I agree that it's a shove or fold spot. With the limper I think you'd have to size your 3-bet a bit more and it would be awkward so if mp3 is kinda loose and active I like shoving.
    Last edited by rickyt88; 09-10-2013 at 06:09 AM.
  4. #4
    dombo's Avatar
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    Thank you! Ingame I really tought shove shove and ended up folding. Felt so weak and when had more info about their ranges I was even more devastated by my fold. Just hope to pick more on these spots next time!
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    If I 4-bet, I would jam. Usually I just jam or fold this spot, although I guess sometimes I might call or 4-bet less than all-in if I have some specific reads.
    4bet?

    I have no idea what I'm doing in this spot because I know nothing about the villain who raised.

    dombo, if you found youself moneyscared here, does this not suggest you're punching above your weight?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    4bet?

    I have no idea what I'm doing in this spot because I know nothing about the villain who raised.

    dombo, if you found youself moneyscared here, does this not suggest you're punching above your weight?
    yeah it's a 3-bet, read the HH wrong. Calling is perfectly reasonable and probably the best line without reads. I would usually call and then do every other option (3-bet ai, 3-bet <ai, fold) some much smaller % of the time. Fold is usually the worst option without more info.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  7. #7
    I think call is most likely what I do based on the lack of reads, but folding and 3betting both seem viable too, so this does seem like an interesting spot.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    4bet?


    dombo, if you found youself moneyscared here, does this not suggest you're punching above your weight?
    probably wrote it down bad and not moneyscared, just not comfortable enough yet at these stakes this of course has to do with the volume etc.
    And by not playing and learning from them I probably never will.

    (Let's say I feel comfortable till 33 euro games)

    And I qualified through a $25 or $27 satty. So no problem for my BR whatsoever.
  9. #9
    Sabr1988's Avatar
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    Sorry but can we get some information on how many spots left to the money and what tournament it is and what gtd prize there is? Would make this a bit easier to discuss imo.
    With patience you win
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabr1988 View Post
    Sorry but can we get some information on how many spots left to the money and what tournament it is and what gtd prize there is? Would make this a bit easier to discuss imo.
    I would like to know this too, as well as some info on MP1 and MP3. Without such info this seems like an easy fold to me. Shoving seems a little too drastic with 23 bb's left and 4-betting here can get really uncomfortable from the SB. If, however, there is a good chance that MP3 is just iso-raising a fish in MP1 then 4-bet/fold seems better than just folding. In a 4-bet/flat situation you would have to shove a lot of flops though. Also MP3's raise seems strangely small, I would probably fold just because of his sizing. To me his sizing looks like he wants someone to 3-bet him, otherwise it seems that he would raise more.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    If, however, there is a good chance that MP3 is just iso-raising a fish in MP1 then 4-bet/fold seems better than just folding.
    Flatting >> 3-bet/fold without more information
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    Flatting >> 3-bet/fold without more information
    In some spots - yes, however, I can't imagine why I would want to do that with AJo OOP vs 2 players with 23 bb's (and nearing the bubble?)
    In this particular spot I'm going with fold > 3-bet/fold > flat
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    however, I can't imagine why I would want to do that with AJo OOP vs 2 players with 23 bb's (and nearing the bubble?)
    So your entire argument is that you don't want to flat this preflop because you're going to be OOP and have 23bb? These aren't reasons, they're merely facts about the hand. I KNOW that we're going to be OOP and I KNOW that we have 23bb. And yes, I want to flat. And I even know why I want to flat.

    Do you know why you DON'T want to flat? Because as I've said, simply stating "we're OOP" and "we have 23bb" aren't reasons. You probably should have stated why being OOP is a problem and why having 23bb is a problem, rather than just stating those facts and assuming that everyone universally agrees that they are bad things.

    I watched and replied to your first HU video and I remember your responses and as such, I don't intend on wasting a lot of time trying to convince you why you're wrong because I know you will not be open to it. I found it hard to ignore your reply to me here, though, when it was content-less and smug, especially when you have been hired by FTR to teach people and make videos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    So your entire argument is that you don't want to flat this preflop because you're going to be OOP and have 23bb? These aren't reasons, they're merely facts about the hand. I KNOW that we're going to be OOP and I KNOW that we have 23bb. And yes, I want to flat. And I even know why I want to flat.

    Do you know why you DON'T want to flat? Because as I've said, simply stating "we're OOP" and "we have 23bb" aren't reasons. You probably should have stated why being OOP is a problem and why having 23bb is a problem, rather than just stating those facts and assuming that everyone universally agrees that they are bad things.

    I watched and replied to your first HU video and I remember your responses and as such, I don't intend on wasting a lot of time trying to convince you why you're wrong because I know you will not be open to it. I found it hard to ignore your reply to me here, though, when it was content-less and smug, especially when you have been hired by FTR to teach people and make videos.

    Sorry if my reply seemed smug to you, I can assure you that it wasn't intended that way

    I guess you are right though, I just touched on the factors that matter to me here but I didn't explain exactly why. The fact that we are oop and have 23 bbs means that if we flat, then we are looking at a three-way pot oop without much room for meneuvering, so at best this will be a breakevenEV call in the long run, unless we are playing against huge fish.

    Here's why I think 3-betting is better. We don't have any information on MP3, but we should remember that he doesn't have any information on us too at this point, so 3-betting from the SB in this spot will look very strong and I don't think MP1 or MP3 will try to play back with air ever, so if any of them shove its an easy fold and in case we get called we can still get away from the hand on bad flop with an we'll have a decent stack left.

    And the reason why I like folding more than both of these options is I guess because I'm a nit and I'd rather wait for a less sketchy spot.

    Also tbh you never explained why you think flatting is the best option either
  15. #15
    dombo's Avatar
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    It was the Major on revolution network 50k guaranteed on sunday, I did happen to cash for $300 but don't know what first prize was anymore.

    Ps exact number of spots from bubble cant remember either, stats I should try to look this hand up in HM
    Last edited by dombo; 09-28-2013 at 09:23 PM.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    Also tbh you never explained why you think flatting is the best option either
    You're correct, I didn't. I think saying something new in a given thread without giving an explanation is fine as long as you're willing to back up your thoughts if someone asks you to. I don't think writing content-less posts is okay, though.

    I am more than happy to explain why flatting is the best option to anyone that asks. You didn't ask, though. You merely repeated what you had already said in a previous post and gave no elaboration, so I don't see why I would have explained any further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    we are looking at a three-way pot oop without much room for meneuvering, so at best this will be a breakevenEV call in the long run, unless we are playing against huge fish.
    This is incorrect. I am very confident that I could flat this preflop with this stack size and it would be +EV versus almost everyone (including regs) in this field. And it would be more +EV than 3-betting.

    I can see why someone weak post flop with this stack size would be better off 3-betting than flatting, but that doesn't make it the correct play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    I can see why someone weak post flop with this stack size would be better off 3-betting than flatting, but that doesn't make it the correct play.
    I'm sorry, but flatting here is a much weaker play than 3-betting and no matter how good you are post flop there is just no reason to get tangled up in a spot like this nearing the bubble, but I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree
  18. #18
    dombo's Avatar
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    ***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Cake Poker)
    Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, September 09, 12:17:50 ET 2013
    Table 15276427 ))(( Table 50 (Real Money)
    Seat 1 is the button
    Seat 1: Player1 ( 29651 ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 8, AF: 0.5, Hands: 83
    Seat 2: Hero ( 23641 ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 11, 3B: 3, AF: 6.0, Hands: 169
    Seat 3: Player3 ( 96096 ) - VPIP: 0, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 30
    Seat 4: Player4 ( 12240 ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 4, 3B: 2, AF: 3.0, Hands: 103
    Seat 5: Player5 ( 33374 ) - VPIP: 29, PFR: 17, 3B: 6, AF: 1.8, Hands: 105
    Seat 7: Player7 ( 38004 ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 1.7, Hands: 61
    Seat 8: Player8 ( 101195 ) - VPIP: 39, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 1.3, Hands: 64
    Seat 9: Player9 ( 37906 ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 20, 3B: 13, AF: 3.0, Hands: 132
    Seat 10: Player10 ( 49222 ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 8, AF: 0.5, Hands: 83
    Player1 posts ante of [100].
    Hero posts ante of [100].
    Player3 posts ante of [100].
    Player4 posts ante of [100].
    Player5 posts ante of [100].
    Player7 posts ante of [100].
    Player8 posts ante of [100].
    Player9 posts ante of [100].
    Player10 posts ante of [100].
    Hero posts small blind [500].
    Player3 posts big blind [1000].
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to Hero [ As Jd ]
    Player4 folds
    Player5 folds
    Player7 calls [1000]
    Player8 folds
    Player9 raises [2567]
    Player10 folds
    Player1 folds
    Hero ?
  19. #19
    Sabr1988's Avatar
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    In your spot i would fold that AJo. But with good reads on those players and knowing what range MP3 would 3bet with in that spot and what the limpers range could be, i could 4bet shove. But again for me it depends on my bankroll, if i need to get itm i never mind folding AJo here. Pretty easy fold for me actually.
    With patience you win
  20. #20
    Tom1559's Avatar
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    Read this and struggle to understand some of the logic. For me it is a flat call or a fold probably a fold. I cannot see a raise or shove with this hand in this position.
    Scottish Cowboy
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dombo View Post
    ***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (Cake Poker)
    Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, September 09, 12:17:50 ET 2013
    Table 15276427 ))(( Table 50 (Real Money)
    Seat 1 is the button
    Seat 1: Player1 ( 29651 ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 8, AF: 0.5, Hands: 83
    Seat 2: Hero ( 23641 ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 11, 3B: 3, AF: 6.0, Hands: 169
    Seat 3: Player3 ( 96096 ) - VPIP: 0, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 30
    Seat 4: Player4 ( 12240 ) - VPIP: 12, PFR: 4, 3B: 2, AF: 3.0, Hands: 103
    Seat 5: Player5 ( 33374 ) - VPIP: 29, PFR: 17, 3B: 6, AF: 1.8, Hands: 105
    Seat 7: Player7 ( 38004 ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 1.7, Hands: 61
    Seat 8: Player8 ( 101195 ) - VPIP: 39, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 1.3, Hands: 64
    Seat 9: Player9 ( 37906 ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 20, 3B: 13, AF: 3.0, Hands: 132
    Seat 10: Player10 ( 49222 ) - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 8, AF: 0.5, Hands: 83
    Player1 posts ante of [100].
    Hero posts ante of [100].
    Player3 posts ante of [100].
    Player4 posts ante of [100].
    Player5 posts ante of [100].
    Player7 posts ante of [100].
    Player8 posts ante of [100].
    Player9 posts ante of [100].
    Player10 posts ante of [100].
    Hero posts small blind [500].
    Player3 posts big blind [1000].
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to Hero [ As Jd ]
    Player4 folds
    Player5 folds
    Player7 calls [1000]
    Player8 folds
    Player9 raises [2567]
    Player10 folds
    Player1 folds
    Hero ?
    Yep, very standard situation, player7 is a fish and player9 is isolating him, which means that 3-betting here is optimal, but if money is a factor then a fold is fine too.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    Yep, very standard situation, player7 is a fish and player9 is isolating him, which means that 3-betting here is optimal, but if money is a factor then a fold is fine too.
    It should be VERY obvious that folding is the worst option possible if we decide that player7 is a fish and that player9 is isolating him here. I can't believe that you would even tell people in this thread to fold.

    Have you considered that if you knew the optimal line in every situation, that you would possibly be able to play higher stakes than an $11 ABI? When you don't or can't play higher stakes, it would benefit you to ask yourself why that is.

    You are automatically a role model to people here because you make videos, and I feel disappointed that FTR hired someone with an attitude like yours. I don't like the fact that people are coming here to learn from someone that is unwilling to learn and improve himself (presumably because he thinks he is a very good player already).

    I really don't care whether or not you get better at poker because people like you are the reason why poker continues to be so profitable today. But I care that the people that actually want to learn get the right message.

    The right message is that you should always be open to alternative lines and the possibility that they are more +EV than the one that you want to take. When someone suggests a line, really think about it and try to think of reasons why it is or isn't correct. Try really hard to never automatically assume that someone is right or wrong until you understand why. And you get so much more out of it if you can see a line and figure out yourself why it's correct rather than having someone tell you why. This is why I often don't post explanations when I post in threads because I like to give people the chance to figure it out on their own. But I'm always willing to elaborate if anyone ever asks me to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    It should be VERY obvious that folding is the worst option possible if we decide that player7 is a fish and that player9 is isolating him here. I can't believe that you would even tell people in this thread to fold.
    You seem to be unable to follow a conversation so maybe this will help you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    3-betting here is optimal, but if money is a factor then a fold is fine too.
    If your ABI is in the $20’s range and you are playing a $134 tournament then it’s perfectly reasonable to pass up a marginal situation like this. If you don’t care about cashing then I prefer a 3-bet. I actually asked a friend of mine who is an NL100-NL200 reg about this hand and he agreed that 3-betting here is the best option. Just for the record, I explained my thoughts about all three possible lines and the only “reasoning” you provided, apart from bashing me for not agreeing with you (being a moderator seems to be right up your alley) is:

    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    I am very confident that I could flat this preflop with this stack size and it would be +EV versus almost everyone (including regs) in this field. And it would be more +EV than 3-betting.
    If both players in this scenario were fish, then it might be more +EV rather than 3-betting, on the other hand, if you think that you be +EV in the long run with this hand in this situation against two regs by flatting and playing a three-way flop then you are simply delusional.

    For a second there I actually wanted to reply to the rest of your post, but I don’t see why I would want to waste my time replying to someone as arrogant as you, so good day to you
  24. #24
    dombo's Avatar
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    Maybe something positive about this discussion is , I did get a lot of info why or why not..
    And really feel like I am much more confident about certain spots.

    Ty both
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Filik View Post
    I actually asked a friend of mine who is an NL100-NL200 reg about this hand and he agreed that 3-betting here is the best option.
    I'm not sure why you are telling someone that plays tournaments for a living what a cash game player thinks is optimal about a tournament hand, lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  26. #26
    Filik your logic is to turn AJo into a bluff in a pot which includes a fish and when 3betting would commit a significant portion of our stack. What are you going to do, 3bet to 6.5k with 17k behind and fold out everything weak that the raiser is isolating with and putting yourself in horrible spots if/when he flats.

    Flatting here is best because we (should)/are better than bad players post flop. If you're not, you need to take a look at your game. Flatting here lets us keep in all his weaker aces and we can flop a very strong top pair hand on an ace high board or a jack high board. It may take more critical thinking to put them on ranges but the fish's range is obviously weak and so is the raiser.
  27. #27
    Some negatives to flatting: our relative position will be poor - and we allow big blind to realize equity with almost any two cards given the price he is getting so we are often going 4 way to a flop with a hand that plays better in a heads up situation.
  28. #28
    Sabr1988's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    Some negatives to flatting: our relative position will be poor - and we allow big blind to realize equity with almost any two cards given the price he is getting so we are often going 4 way to a flop with a hand that plays better in a heads up situation.
    You said it sir!
    With patience you win
  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    Some negatives to flatting: our relative position will be poor - and we allow big blind to realize equity with almost any two cards given the price he is getting so we are often going 4 way to a flop with a hand that plays better in a heads up situation.
    I replied to this post days ago but it disappeared. I think FTR did some server update.

    I agree that going to the flop 4-way isn't optimal, but I don't mind our position that much because it gives us the chance to donk bet the flop before everyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  30. #30
    Sometimes we push sometimes we fold , but with A J are we willing to bubble on a flip ? It's not AK it's AJ if we shove its a bluff anyway (just stealing the pot which is what we want) A J are good cards but I hate AJ personally lmao ! So we fold or push or play our cards (playing our cards is ok too)
    !

    If I just got moved to this table online I'd just 2.5 bet and play my cards

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