$69, lots of choices with AJo preflop

Assume villain's been at the table ~30 hands and seems like a decent player running about 18/15. Won't say anything about BTN-blinds but you can explain if they factor into your decision

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 40/80 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t7660)
MP3 (t3160)
Hero (CO) (t4165)
Button (t4620)
SB (t6415)
BB (t3050)
UTG (t3520)
UTG+1 (t5190)
MP1 (t3815)

Hero's M: 34.71

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, J
2 folds, MP1 bets t240, 2 folds, Hero ...

I suck in spots like this and usually just fold. I cant imagine his range being wide enough to where thats a bad option. We're deep so I would probably tend to 3bet vs call if I was going to play.

i just fold here alot too , is this really bad ? hand doesnt flop well so i just dont see alot of value in playing here wit these stacks

if you think it will often be HU I like to flat AQ/AJ here and would usually fold worse off suit. I don't think it's a good 3 bet spot, he'll fold worse almost always and the only better hands he folds are stuff like 66 that I like our chances against anyway IP.

Also our image is a factor, might be more tempted by a 3b if we're running nitty.

I think folding from CO is OK but I would never fold from BU.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Also our image is a factor, might be more tempted by a 3b if we're running nitty.

just a question, why would we 3 bet AJ if we had a nitty image, wouldn't it be better to 3 bet say 89s etc if we had a nitty image? yea he'll fold more hands that beat us, but if were turning it into a bluff why do it with a hand that has value against his opening range. also if were nitty his 3 bet calling range would be tighter (and might include hands like QQ that would other wise 4 bet shove) and we would have a better chance to stack him when we flop a big with hand like 89s, its harder to flop a hand that stacks a tight 3 bet calling range with AJo

but i agree with everyone that i usually fold this preflop.

EDIT: sorry missed your second post which kinda says exactly what i just said, but i still wonder y you would 3 bet AJ if you had a nitty image, i still think you would be turning a hand with value into a bluff.

What type of hands should I 3bet here? Only for value and something like JJ+ AK? If I have a 3bet bluff range, what hands should they be?

I like to 3 bet bluff with playable suited hands you don't want to call with - like if you'd call with J9s 3 bet J8s, call with A9s but bluff A4s etc.

Just fold it man. AJo is not that much of a premium hand. Only way I would call is if I am playing a very bad loose player. Best case scenario you flop a J and then in the next two streets if a Q or K comes you are back to doubting it.

I pretty much always fold here and that seems to be a pretty common answer. But shouldn't we be 3betting since its the best hand in our folding range? Or should it be hands that are best against their range for calling the 3bet (which I would guess would be something like 88-JJ, AQ in this spot). KTo-KQo, K9s-KQs, QTs, QJs, J9s all fair better against that range than AJo. Are some of those hands strong enough to flat?

i think 910s and hands that flop big draws and hidden big hands like the suited gappers are def strong enough to flat here in pos imo , or to 3bet vs an mp/lp raise happy villain

I guess when i said 3bet I was looking more at the stack sizes and not totally thinking value. I mean if villain will call with worse then its better to have a higher SPR going to the flop. If we think they will fold then just call like DR said.

I guess my question with this spot is if we don't 3bet AJ here should we 3bet AA, KK. QQ, AK? I mean these hands have more value obviously but if we don't want to fold out better then whats the point of raising?

I would think in this spot we would 3bet with any hand better than villains range, call with hands that are equal, and 3bet hands that are slighter behind, and fold rest.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I guess my question with this spot is if we don't 3bet AJ here should we 3bet AA, KK. QQ, AK? I mean these hands have more value obviously but if we don't want to fold out better then whats the point of raising?

you kinda answered your own question you would 3 bet QQ, KK, AA because they have more value and dominate more hands that are in villains 3 bet calling range (AQ, AK, 99, 1010, JJ, QQ, maybe worse.) it will still fold out a lot of bad hands but gets lots of value from the top of his range. with AJ you'll make worse fold, but his 3 bet calling range mostly dominates you, so you lose the value you have if you believe your ahead of his opening range, (especially IP) which isn't usually the case with QQ, KK, AA.

It seems better to do this with a tight image so that villain is more likely to fold AQ, making it a more effective bluff. fwiw I think a lot of decent players will be folding AQ pretty often to a 3bet unless your image is totally trashed.

but i still wonder y you would 3 bet AJ if you had a nitty image, i still think you would be turning a hand with value into a bluff.

If your saying the hand has value, you're basically saying its good enough to flat. But you said that you usually fold this pre which is contradictory

AJo vs 88-JJ, AQ: 36%
98s vs 88-JJ, AQ: 30%

*This doesnt mean I think just because it has better equity = its more valuable to 3bet with it. But it at least helps. We'll also have more fold equity preflop because AJo has blockers to JJ, AQ, AK.

Both hands can be problematic postflop. Your typically looking to get no more than 1-2 streets of value when you flop 1pair with AJo and you'll rarely be able to semibluff w/ a lot of outs. With 98s you can semibluff more effectively but there can be plenty of tough spots with 2nd/top pairs.

Originally Posted by fjuanl

If your saying the hand has value, you're basically saying its good enough to flat. But you said that you usually fold this pre which is contradictory

i wasn't saying I would rather call, i just said that i think if your looking to either 3 bet or call. calling>3 betting. i personally usually fold, but it does obviously depend on reads.

Originally Posted by fjuanl

It seems better to do this with a tight image so that villain is more likely to fold AQ, making it a more effective bluff. fwiw I think a lot of decent players will be folding AQ pretty often to a 3bet unless your image is totally trashed.

I understand a nitty image would make him fold AQ etc, but he's going to fold that to 87s etc to, if you have a nitty image. 87s suited will also get A10, A9s, KQ, etc. etc. to fold, all which AJ has a lot of value against.
so why use a hand that has value vs his opening range as a Bluff? like you said it has better equity then 109s (especially IP)etc.

and i also understand that it has better equity against his 3 bet calling range but it makes it much harder to win his stack when you nail the flop, because if you flop top pair your probably not stacking ,1010,JJ,QQ,KK, etc, or your dominated. with 87s if you hit two pair or better its much easier to win his stack.

i agree both have tough spots but 87s is much easier to play when you hit top pair etc, especially if you narrowed his range by 3 betting. Obv this all only applies if you've have a really tight image cause your goal preflop is to get Lots better to fold.

I prefer nitty image to 3 bet AJ because you have some blockers to the hands that would call/ship and you know that whatever happens post flop you'll be bluffing. And you know you can fold to a 4 bet pre with these stacks. If you have a bad image/have been 3 betting a lot you're going to be in more tough spots because people will flat or shove some worse As and PPs you flip with.

Plus as got mentioned somewhere if you're never 3 betting it's harder to get value for your big pars, need to get the number up somehow.

In same vein if you are running nitty I don't think there is much value in a flat because people will shut it down a lot vs Axx board once you call once and if they don't you're going to start hating your hand.

i Just want to say, I'm more just inquiring to fix my train of thought in these situations and in know way am i saying your wrong i just want you to critique my thinking if I'm way off.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I prefer nitty image to 3 bet AJ because you have some blockers to the hands that would call/ship and you know that whatever happens post flop you'll be bluffing. And you know you can fold to a 4 bet pre with these stacks. If you have a bad image/have been 3 betting a lot you're going to be in more tough spots because people will flat or shove some worse As and PPs you flip with.

The blockers is the only reason that makes sense to me on why 3 betting with a nitty image is good here, so it does make sense a bit.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Plus as got mentioned somewhere if you're never 3 betting it's harder to get value for your big pars, need to get the number up somehow.

i agree, I'm not saying don't 3 bet, I just don't like 3 betting in this spot with AJ. I think 3 betting with a mid SC is better, your still folding to a 4 bet as you would with AJ + all the reasons i stated in above post. (maybe i'm wrong and having those blockers is more important then i realize.)

Originally Posted by drmcboy

In same vein if you are running nitty I don't think there is much value in a flat because people will shut it down a lot vs Axx board once you call once and if they don't you're going to start hating your hand.

I think theirs still spots you get more value then that depending on reads on original raiser, but even if your getting one street of value on Axx board, a lot of times that would be more then turning AJ into a bluff preflop. a lot of times your not getting value, or hating your hand, against hands that would 4 bet shove preflop or fold to your 3 bet anyways. I think being IP is important here to because you can still have a pretty high % of winning the pot when you don't hit.

you will win lots being IP whatever your hand is, doesn't matter that it's AJ. Also if what you say is true why are you folding pre?

I agree SCs are better but that's like saying you should only play AA because it's the best hand. we don't have an sc, we have AJo. Focus on whether that's a good 3 bet. I don't think you should just give up on 3 betting because you aren't being dealt a ton of big hands and scs.

re the 1 street stuff, I don't really think you can quantify it, but I do know that 2/3 times you brick and sometimes you won't flop TP with the J. But you can 3 bet 100%.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

you will win lots being IP whatever your hand is, doesn't matter that it's AJ. Also if what you say is true why are you folding pre?

I agree SCs are better but that's like saying you should only play AA because it's the best hand. we don't have an sc, we have AJo. Focus on whether that's a good 3 bet. I don't think you should just give up on 3 betting because you aren't being dealt a ton of big hands and scs.

in regards to folding pre, i guess maybe this post help me realize that maybe a call is good here against opening raisers range, so thats good. against 18/15 i usually fold,( leak i guess) i guess this might have been the wrong post to state my case, sorry. but i was just commenting on 3 betting vs calling in this situation (with nitty image) in general.

also I'm not even saying just SCs that was more just an example, I'm saying if your turning AJ into a bluff, ATC is essentially the same , but at least with ATC your not losing the value that AJ has against opening raisers range. especially if your thinking as you said that even if you hit Axx your getting little value or dominated. and on most flops that you decide to bluff xx is the same as AJ. obviously this is all dependent on your image and villain's range, but all my comments were based on us having a really nitty image.

i know i should focus on this specific situation but i assume with a nit image this scenario will come up enough that we can get our 3 bet numbers up enough to get value when we do have a good hand, I'm just don't want to do it with a hand with value (If you don't think it has any value against opening range then just fold pre.)

sorry i think I'm repeating myself, so ignore me if I'm annoying the shit out of you.

we're ahead of 15% plus we have position, I don't really get why everyone is folding.

but at least with ATC your not losing the value that AJ has against opening raisers range

you lose 100% of the value of AJ if you fold. As I said, I prefer a flat but def think 3 bet > fold

Originally Posted by drmcboy

you lose 100% of the value of AJ if you fold. As I said, I prefer a flat but def think 3 bet > fold

thanks drmc, cause before this post i would fold most of the time here, so i guess this definitely helped. i agree with ^^^^

flat>3 bet> fold.

all this was just based on your comment if we were super nitty you would be more tempted to 3 bet AJ. i was just saying if i was nitty i would be less inclined to 3 bet AJ, and be more inclined to wait for a similar situation and 3 bet ATC, and save the value that AJ has. so ignore all my comments about folding pre because through writing all this i see that was stupid.

For me theres 2 ways you can play that hand depending on your read on your opponent. If he seems to be really tight and carefull, well its a easy laydown.

Say you have a good read of your opponent and hes loose and playing all kinda hands, well you could try a 3bet to 800 maybe. if he instareraise AI, i would fold.

Thats how i would have played i think, if u got a comment for me, just post, thanks.

Originally Posted by Sabr1988

For me theres 2 ways you can play that hand depending on your read on your opponent. If he seems to be really tight and carefull, well its a easy laydown.

Say you have a good read of your opponent and hes loose and playing all kinda hands, well you could try a 3bet to 800 maybe. if he instareraise AI, i would fold.

Thats how i would have played i think, if u got a comment for me, just post, thanks.

read the above posts, through it I've come to the conclusion call > 3 bet > fold.