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zoom NL5 set of 7

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  1. #1

    Default zoom NL5 set of 7

    How would you play this hand? do you think I did something wrong? opponent was unknown, no info on him

    PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

    saw flop | saw showdown

    Button ($8.05)
    SB ($5.38)
    BB ($7.78)
    UTG ($5.04)
    Hero (UTG+1) ($2.75)
    MP1 ($5.83)
    MP2 ($5.36)
    MP3 ($4.57)
    CO ($2.33)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7, 7
    UTG raises to $0.12, Hero calls $0.12, 7 folds

    Flop: ($0.31) Q, K, 7 (2 players)
    UTG bets $0.18, Hero calls $0.18

    Turn: ($0.67) 5 (2 players)
    UTG bets $0.42, Hero calls $0.42

    River: ($1.51) 8 (2 players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets $0.72, UTG raises to $2.74, Hero calls $1.31 (All-In)

    Total pot: $5.57 | Rake: $0.23
    Main pot: $5.57 between UTG and Hero, won by UTG

    Results below:
    Spoiler:

    UTG had Q, Q (three of a kind, Queens).
    Hero had 7, 7 (three of a kind, sevens).
    Outcome: UTG won $5.34
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    DON'T POST RESULTS!

    When you post the results, the discussion is stained by that "results oriented" thinking that comes with clicking a spoiler.

    Whether or not you won or lost this hand is not important. Whether or not you would win or lose if you played this exact spot many, many times is what matters. Over many hands, you will win some and lose some, but it's the overall play that matters.

    Please take to heart that posting results pulls the focus away from good play and into "perfect" play. Perfect play assumes we can see Villain's cards, and that's not poker. Perfect play is something we can talk about only after the hand is over, and it doesn't really help us to put that hand in the context of the many hands and boards that Villain may play in a very similar fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    How would you play this hand? do you think I did something wrong?
    We'll get into that in a bit. The most glaring thing you did wrong was say that your villain is unknown. We'll work on that first.


    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    opponent was unknown, no info on him
    OK, so tell me about villains, in general, on this site, at these stakes, in this format.
    What broad characteristics would you use to describe the player pool?

    How do you tell a weak player, of whom you want to take advantage, from a strong player, of whom you should be wary?

    Each of these things should tell you something about your villain:
    His stack size
    His position
    His weak open PRE
    His button-mashing bet-sizing POST
    His x/r OTR

    So what does each of these things tell you? If you don't have an answer for all of them, that's OK. Just start where you can.

    Remember that poker is a game of outsmarting people. The cards are mostly a prop to distract the fish.

    If you haven't ever really thought about Villains in this way, then tell me what your own range of hands might be to play in a similar fashion. I.e. a weak open from UTG, followed by a button-mashing C-bet, and a turn C-bet, then a x/r OTR.
    Would you ever use such a betting line? What does it represent?
  3. #3
    Thanks for posting - this is an interesting spot.

    River is a clear fold imo, even with the pot odds on offer. This line is always the nuts or near nuts at 5nl, plus villain is UTG at full ring so is big pair heavy here. His river line is terrible though and just leaving money at the table, as he allows you to check back tptk and 2-pair and bet/fold effectively the 3rd nuts on the river.

    I don't play FR, but your preflop call seems marginal to me with no reads and so many players left behind to act that can squeeze. Flop call is also debateable.
  4. #4
    also why is hero short stacking?
  5. #5
    I would have thought that you shouldn't be too annoyed to lose to a higher set? In fact folding if you think someone has the higher set would be wrong play?

    I doubt villain is leading out with a 96 or 64 to make the back door straight so that's the straight possibilities gone, also no flush draw, the only thing villain could have here is a higher set or top two pair, or even TPTK?

    77 Wouldn't be a hand I would play UTG+1 maybe there is your mistake

    Also AQs is a possible opening hand for villain UTG

    Correct me if I'm wrong but it just seems a little unlucky to me
    Last edited by MrFerguson91; 06-06-2015 at 05:51 AM.
  6. #6
    Not folding.

    I agree with bean to the point that this looks nutty. However, AK KQ these are nutty hands at 5nl to a fish. This could also be a spazz bluff with a missed fd. Villain failed to raise two streets when there's flush draws and straight draws a-plenty. This isn't always KK/QQ. Yes I'm being optimistic, but we don't need to be hugely optimistic here to make the call, and even if it's a bad call, we have a set, we can dismiss it as a cooler.

    With better reads I'd be more willing to fold this spot, but for me, here, this is a call and I'm happy about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post

    How do you tell a weak player, of whom you want to take advantage, from a strong player, of whom you should be wary?

    If you haven't ever really thought about Villains in this way, then tell me what your own range of hands might be to play in a similar fashion. I.e. a weak open from UTG, followed by a button-mashing C-bet, and a turn C-bet, then a x/r OTR.
    Would you ever use such a betting line? What does it represent?
    Well what I normally look is at their vip status if they show it, if they are bronzestar, there's now way they are regs of NL5 zoom, if they have higher vip status, it tells me nothing. I also see on how many tables he is playing, if villian is multitabling, I tend to think that he's got an idea of what he's doing while playing.

    In this case, villian did't show vip status, but he was multitabling.

    As regards his betting line, I would have played like that with 77, QQ and KK, making a check on river to induce a bluff, it might not be the best play for value to c/r river, but with such a strong hand I know deep in my inside I would have done it. What it confused me was his open raise size, 2,5x on utg, preflop I thought his range was going to be wider than 99+ AJ+, so he might have KQ, suited hands and AK. His OR size is what confused me a bit, but once he pushed on the river I said to myself: I feel I have to call, but I'm not really happy about it. It smelled like a cooler, but as I had no info on him, he might do that with missed draws or with 2 pairs, or with TPTK if he is way too aggresive.
  8. #8
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    Well what I normally look is at their vip status if they show it, if they are bronzestar, there's now way they are regs of NL5 zoom, if they have higher vip status, it tells me nothing. I also see on how many tables he is playing, if villian is multitabling, I tend to think that he's got an idea of what he's doing while playing.

    In this case, villian did't show vip status, but he was multitabling.
    Good stuff!

    Villain isn't so 'unknown' after all!

    I would guess that someone hiding their VIP status is someone who is more likely to be a medium-level player. I would guess that a very weak or recreational player would want to brag about whatever low-level achievements they had. I would guess that there may be some advantage to showing a high rating as far as intimidating Villains into making bad plays. I would guess that it's the medium level players who realize they'd be advertising their mediocrity... which both peeves them and also probably is not going to help them win.

    He's multi-tabling, so he takes his game seriously. He wants to be good at poker, and he thinks he's pretty good already.

    So far, we're suggesting that Villain is a mid-strength reg. He could be off of that, but we're not pinning him down too hard.

    It may sound rudimentary, but that information - mid-level, multi-tabler - tells us he knows about starting hands charts, agree?

    ***
    Before the next quote: You skipped Villain's stack size, and your stack size is small. You didn't answer another poster's question about your stack size.

    It is widely regarded that more chips in front of you = better.

    When you sit on a short stack... you actually prevent yourself from winning your full share of an all-in. If you have the nuts, and you go all-in and get called, then you want to have as much money to bet as your opponent can possibly call. You want to have them stack dominated.
    Sure, you will lose more chips when you don't win the all-in, BUT you are a strong player who has the odds in his favor far more often than not. You know when to fold and when not to shove.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    As regards his betting line, I would have played like that with 77, QQ and KK, making a check on river to induce a bluff, it might not be the best play for value to c/r river, but with such a strong hand I know deep in my inside I would have done it.
    I think the honest approach you are taking at analyzing your play is your strongest quality as a poker player.


    If you keep with this study, you will learn how to figure out if "it might not be the best play."

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    What it confused me was his open raise size, 2,5x on utg, preflop I thought his range was going to be wider than 99+ AJ+, so he might have KQ, suited hands and AK. His OR size is what confused me a bit,
    This is gold. This should be in your OP.

    I agree with you. His weak open looks like he's repping a wider than standard range from UTG. It could be that he is just scared of making everyone fold when he has a monster UTG. These are both bad solutions to the perceived problems, and indicative of a low-level thinker.

    I.e. if your range from UTG is too wide, then thin it out... don't lower your open raise amount.
    If you're afraid of people folding when you have monsters, then your villains are folding too much, and you should widen your range.

    The bottom line is that your greatest profit comes when you play your strongest hands aggressively.

    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    but once he pushed on the river I said to myself: I feel I have to call, but I'm not really happy about it. It smelled like a cooler, but as I had no info on him, he might do that with missed draws or with 2 pairs, or with TPTK if he is way too aggresive.
    You've disproved the "no info on him" already, bro.

    We know he's a mid-level multi-tabler (reg) who's figured out (or listened to the advice) that having as many chips in front of him as allowed is good. We knew this before the cards were even dealt.

    Nonetheless... you're right. He could well do this with 2 pr, or TPTK... but almost def has a "sensible" opening range, based on some starting hands chart. It's supremely unlikely that he's going to show up with J6s or 53o.

    We know he is playing a little scared with his opening size UTG. This tells us that he's probably got some positional awareness. Also, he thinks he's cleverly figured out this little trick that is so winning. He loves to feed that ego and "trap" people with his "sneaky" move.

    ***
    Now, we can put all this together and say that the flop KQ7dd smacks his UTG range pretty hard. It's entirely likely that he has 88+ in his range, and given his small open size, maybe all PP. He's certainly playing AKs, and probably AKo, AQs, KQs... probably wider. Including K7s in his opening range is probably pushing it.

    ***
    What is the pot odds to call the x/r OTR?
    Size of the pot: $1.51 + $0.72 + ($0.72 + $1.31) = $4.26
    Your amount to call: $1.31
    Pot odds: $1.31/($1.31 + $4.26) ~= 23.5%

    This tells us that if your equity to win the call is at least 23.5%, the call will be +EV. At worst, 0 EV.

    If we assume that he has { QQ+, KQs } OTR, what is your equity?
    Equilab shows ~57%
    That's more than 23.5%, so the call is profitable. Against this range, VERY profitable.

    What if we assume Villain only x/r OTR with { KK,QQ, KQs }, and he will call with AA?
    Equilab shows ~25%
    That's more than 23.5%, so the call is profitable. Against this range, slightly profitable.

    So, you see... as long as Villain is holding ANY COMBO besides the sets that beat you at the end, your call is profitable.
    If Villain will ONLY x/r with { KK, QQ }, then you are obv. beat and should fold.
  9. #9
    Thanks for all the responses, they really help a lot, I will continue studying to keep improving
  10. #10
    MadMojoMonkey, has made posts on this thread that will improve my game immeasurably.I rely on my HUD too much and having an insight into unknown players is a huge help, thanks.
  11. #11
    I would raise flop and barring that I would raise turn. As played, all draws brick on the river and I don't put it passed someone just checking to catch a bluff and not thinking and monkey jamming like AK/AA even cause they are "likely good", but not thinking about what hands will call their raise.

    Given pot odds, and the possibility of KQ/AK/AA playing this way, I'm not folding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  12. #12
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okeedokalee View Post
    MadMojoMonkey, has made posts on this thread that will improve my game immeasurably.I rely on my HUD too much and having an insight into unknown players is a huge help, thanks.


    I know it's a controversial opinion, but I believe that a HUD is unnecessary and actually an impediment to learning solid poker below 25NL. Even at 25NL, I think a HUD is only of marginal use against certain Villains that Hero has many 1,000s of hands on.

    The reason I think this is partially because of the kind of reads that I've illustrated ITT. Taking into account the level of opponents, you pretty much have all the info you need with basic 'soft' reads.

    It's also an unfortunate fact that players at the micros are, in general, constantly changing their plays, due to them trying to improve. This means that by the time you have 5,000 hands on a Villain, the first couple thousand are not representative of his current play. They may as well have come from a different villain. This means the data in the HUD is probably misleading. It's still broadly indicative of Villain's current play. However, we got that far without using the HUD, so why is it there, again?

    I find that it's not until about 25NL where you see players that have learned enough to play a rather consistent game over many thousands of hands.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 06-20-2015 at 02:10 PM.
  13. #13
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    I don't know if you can call pre-flop with your stack size. With that having been said, I would definitely suggest raising the flop since the board is so ridiculously wet.

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