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TPTK - Enough value?

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  1. #1
    Vinland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Canada; the country all tucked away down there...

    Default TPTK - Enough value?

    Not much to read on villain. He hadnt played a lot of pots from what I could remember, but I was also not paying great attention. So I dont have much to go on other than he hadnt done a lot over a smallish sample of hands.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from

    BB ($4.90)
    UTG ($7.85)
    MP ($5.78)
    CO ($5.26)
    Button ($5.40)
    Hero (SB) ($5)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, A
    3 folds, Button raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Button calls $0.30

    Flop: ($0.85) 9, 10, A (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.51, Button calls $0.51

    When he calls I'm giving him A9-AQ (assuming he 4bets AK a lot) TT, JJ, KQ, maybe QJ, TJ
    He calls my flop bet which isnt surprising. He could be on a str8 draw, AX thats worse than mine

    Turn: ($1.87) 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.90, Button calls $0.90

    FD is now a possibility and str8 draws still so I bet happily and still might get value from worse A's but there arent many left. If he has QJ I assume there would be a raise due to the FD possibly killing action on the river and he would want to get value now.

    River: ($3.67) 3 (2 players)
    Hero ?

    Draws dont complete on this river and there isnt much I gain value from is there?
    I didnt know between betting or checking where I would call a bet to pick off missed draw bluffs, but I dont know how bluffy this villain would be. So I like betting, but cant see what he would call that I beat
  2. #2
    Just to nitpick, you don't have TPTK. Villain can definitely r/c AK pre, it's not an automatic 4bet, especially in position.

    Obviously your hand is good enough to value bet flop and turn here though. River, we can either c/c to induce bluffs or bet, if it's the latter I'd like a 1/3 river bet. I probably c/c my AQ and bet my AK, largely because I don't want to call AQ to a river jam. I'm not thrilled with AK facing a river jam either and should probably fold that too but when we have AK we're beating AQ and we don't block it quite so hard as we do right now, so there's more value.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    oskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
    I'm with Ong. It's fine to significantly underbet here imo. You can bet like $1,2. You want to make it really hard for him to fold worse hands, and it also works as a block bet.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  4. #4
    Hi everyone.
    I'm writing in response to the discussion about playing TPTK on the river. The original poster is concerned that they don't have enough value on the river, as the draws have not completed and there are not many worse hands that they will beat.

    I agree with OngBonga that we don't have TPTK, as villain can definitely call AK preflop. However, our hand is still strong enough to value bet the flop and turn. On the river, we have a few options. We can check and call a bet, we can bet ourselves, or we can fold.

    Checking and calling is a good option if we think villain is likely to bluff on the river. However, if we think villain is more likely to have a value hand, then we should bet ourselves. The size of our bet is important. We don't want to bet too much, as we don't want to price out worse hands. However, we also don't want to bet too little, as we want to get value from our strong hand.

    I would recommend betting a small amount on the river, such as $1.20. This is a significant underbet, but it will make it difficult for villain to fold worse hands. It will also work as a block bet, as it will make it more difficult for villain to call with a hand like KQ.

    Ultimately, the best way to play this hand will depend on the specific villain and the read that we have on them. However, I believe that betting a small amount on the river is a good option in most cases.
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    St Louis, MO
    Either the bots are getting very sophisticated, or that's an actually decent analysis post from a new member.

    Time will tell.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #6
    Why did the poker player go broke?
    Because they couldn't keep their poker face and kept giving away all their chips with their constant grinning!

    Good morning. It's gonna be okay. I checked.
  7. #7
    Hi Peter welcome to FTR.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    I think on reflection, I like to bet/fold my AQ on this river, as discussed a 1/3 bet of around $1.20, while with my AK I want to c/c river because when we get raised on the river holding AK it really sucks, we're almost at the top of our range and we're forced into making a really exploitable fold, or a really fishy call. We're also going to have TT and AA when we bet all three streets, so it's hard for villain to find profitable bluffs.

    It's kinda nice to go over a hand again a year later to see how my thinking changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    When we check river, we don't have TT and AA anymore because it's absurd to not take what value we can from that spot. We're going to look like JJ-KK when we check river, and villain could find a bluff against this perceived range. Sure we do miss value when we check river with AK/AQ and villain checks back a worse ace, but he might even bet something like A5s for value.

    I think we can mostly disregard QJ seeing as villain didn't raise the turn, plus we block it and he definitely doesn't have QJ hearts, so it looks like he has exclusively Ax JTs and draws, maybe KJ hearts.

    Betting AQ on river is thin value to say the least, we're targeting worse Ax and maybe JTs while expecting his air to fold, but when we make it small he's more likely to call anything with showdown value.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    i think i prefer check calling river to let his Jx hands bluff and his Arag hands bet for thin value and avoid being in a world of pain where we bet small on river and get raised.Even betting $1.20 we're pretty much pot committed to calling a raise with 60% of our stack already in the middle and needing to call $1.20-$2 into a $7.20- $8 pot
  11. #11
    Seems like you're in a tough spot on the river. Since the draws didn't hit and there's not much value to gain, checking might be the safer play here, especially if you're unsure about the villain's tendencies....

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