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TP - Flush completes vs fishy player

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  1. #1
    Vinland's Avatar
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    Default TP - Flush completes vs fishy player

    Player was fishy - lots of limp/calls pre, only thing I dont know is if he has bluffs in him.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com


    BB ($3.59)
    UTG ($4)
    MP ($6.22)
    CO ($3.04)
    Button ($5.45)
    Hero (SB) ($5.68)


    Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q
    2 folds, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, 1 fold, CO calls $0.15


    Flop: ($0.45) 5, A, 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.35, CO raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.35

    I dont have a tonne of info on villain, so I didnt want to reraise. TP is probably good, but not always.


    Turn: ($1.85) 7 (2 players)
    Hero checks, CO checks

    Flush completes and I decide to check to hopefully keep the pot smaller


    River: ($1.85) K (2 players)
    Hero checks, CO bets $1.77, Hero ?


    I check and hope he checks behind. I'm also wondering if this helps induce some bluffs but I dont know if villain has bluffs in him.
    I dont know what he minraises the flop with (other than an A which I am probably ahead of, or FDs which now beat me) and then bets river after checking turn but I doubt worse TPs do this, so Im guessing I'm up against a flush or bluff?
  2. #2
    Flop is not a typical bluffing spot for bad villains. To minraise ace high flop is a slap in the face to the pre flop raiser. He could be overplaying a worse pair though. Or maybe this is just what he does with a flush draw... click it back.

    Turn checks through, if he has a set or weak flush he really should be betting for value because another heart kills the action. Fish tend to realise this. Although a set might want to see if he can boat up, fish also do this. I feel like he's polarised when he checks here after raising flop, he's either weak or he has a set or the nut flush.

    River bet is weird. Not sure if he's trying to get maximum value off AK/KK or trying to get folds from QQ and down. This once again feels like a slap in the face... this river is much better for our range than his.

    idk, this is kinda weird, it doesn't make a lot of sense, and often that's because it's a bad bluff. And fish can definitely make bad bluffs at pot size on river. He could have stone cold bluffed the flop to try and fold out missed pockets, check the turn with the nut flush draw, and slam in a pot size river bluff with the nut blocker. That's a possibility. But also it could also be because fish can play strong value hands like clowns. He might just have the nuts. I think I'm calling this river and I'm definitely taking notes whatever he turns over.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    Vinland's Avatar
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    It was weird.

    I called, villain had Jh9h.
    thought the minraise flop was weird. But I called expecting some induced bluffs after I checked turn and river to make it profitable to call but idk. What else would he have. Felt like a fishy call on my part
  4. #4
    So long as you make a note it's not fishy. You're paying for information while hopefully picking off enough bluffs to minimise losses or even turn a profit. If you know he can click it back with a flush draw on Axx vs the pfr, then check a made but vulnerable flush on the turn, you can play hands against him better in the future. Good quality notes have real value.

    If he raises flop more than a minraise, that's probably a made hand like a set or 2pr rather than a draw. That's the first bit of useful information I can take from this hand. I can also fold rivers in future with just a pair in similar lines without a problem, though we'll still have to bluff catch with AK/KK+ because we beat at least some of his value range as well as bluffs, we can't just fold every non-flush hand otherwise we're just going to get trampled over. Especially since we pretty much never have a flush here after we check river over to him. AK/KK/AA is the top of our range here.

    I want to play against this guy more. He's playing very specifically rather than in a balanced way. In his shoes, if I decide to raise this flop, I raise it the same as if I had a set or 2pr. Though I probably just call this draw and raise my nut and combo draws. Still, when I bet or raise, my sizing tells you nothing about my hand. At least that's what I'm trying to do. This guy isn't doing that, which means over a large sample size, you can get this guy in your pocket.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinland View Post
    I called, villain had Jh9h.
    I know that it's just me and ong tending to reply to your posts, and that he and I have decent discipline when it comes to not being results-oriented,
    but
    please stop posting the results of your hands

    The problem is that brains want to know what was right. And in a game of imperfect information, we need to train our brains to be thinking in terms of incomplete information.

    It does us little good to know the information and give advice about how to play against it. That information helps us take good notes, and having those notes in another tricky spot will hopefully be helpful information. But in *this* hand, we did not have those notes, and we need to practice how to think about it w/o that information.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #6
    Vinland's Avatar
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    Sure - makes sense
  7. #7
    I kinda like knowing what villain had because it helps me to know if I was thinking along the right lines. I'm surprised to see a non-nut flush here after the turn checks through. Villain is pretty bad.

    But mojo is right that we should be thinking about ranges, and once a villain's hand is exposed we stop thinking about ranges and start thinking about what he specifically had. Sometimes that might be a productive conversation, so maybe sometimes we can talk about what he had, but probably best as default is to just not post what villain had.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    Vinland's Avatar
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    Yeah - I remember it was a general rule back in the day. Only reason I did post results was bc there are 3 of us, but it makes sense to keep that hidden. If you want to ask for results I can tell you, otherwise we stick to ranges like we probably should most of the time
  9. #9
    oskar's Avatar
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    Probably raise bigger pre. Feesh that open limp from CO will not fold a lot pre.

    CO limp/calls, that's a very broad range. He could be raising flop with any two hearts, straight draws, AK, sets and some air.
    I understand why river call feels bad. Feesh rarely take that line as a bluff, but he has worse Ax hands he could be value betting, could have air and missed straight draws, and the K removes combos that have you beat.

    So I'm never folding. These microstakes games are typically very low aggression though, so I understand why calling with one pair always feels bad, but you don't want to get into the habit of hero folding tptk against feesh who could easily play any A this way.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

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