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To spew or not to spew... suited junk vs donkey

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  1. #1

    Default To spew or not to spew... suited junk vs donkey

    PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

    Button ($7.15)
    SB ($5.16)
    BB ($5.03)
    UTG ($6.15)
    Hero (MP) ($10.95)
    CO ($6.32)

    Preflop: Hero is MP with 2, 3
    UTG raises to $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 4 folds

    Flop: ($0.37) 4, Q, 7 (2 players)
    UTG bets $0.23, Hero raises to $0.70, UTG calls $0.47

    Turn: ($1.77) 8 (2 players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets $1.15, UTG calls $1.15

    River: ($4.07) 5 (2 players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets ?

    Ok so I have a note on this villain... "fish openshove A79r flop for 100bb in 3b pot as pfr"

    So I'm calling pre because I have position on the pfr and feel like I can outplay him post flop in big pots. Normally this is a super standard fold unless I'm closing the action and there's plenty of callers, but this hand is an exception based on my note.

    Flop is obviously shit, but he doesn't shove. That tells me he folds to a raise. Standard raise based on my reason for calling pre flop. He calls. I'm super confident now that he's drawing, and diamonds appear to be all he can reasonably have.

    Turn isn't a diamond. Barreling.

    River isn't a diamond, but it's not a great card. I'm likely checking back KQ here (I'd 3b AQ vs this guy so KQ is the top of my non-nutty range) so if I bet river I'm repping thin, basically 44 77 and A6dd, and he likely holds the Ad himself. Still, I feel like I'm committed to my read that he has diamonds, and I'm not expecting him to be all that good at hand reading, so I feel like I should bet... but how much? I obviously want to bet as little as possible while getting folds from his Ax.

    Am I just burning money here? Should I anticipate this guy having Qx in his range bearing in mind the note I have on him? Should I be worried about being squeezed pf? I considered the squeeze but then again and utg raise and utg+1 call is not really an ideal squeezing spot imo, so I felt confident that only premiums will inflate the pot further.

    I expect some stick for this hand, don't hold back!
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  2. #2
    just quick fold pre /thread
  3. #3
    Do we not want to exploit villain tendancies? He'll tell me if he has a hand he isn't folding by shoving the flop, either openshoving or by 3b shoving. That was the logic behind me making the call, along with the confidence we only get squeezed by a serious hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    Oh yeah fwiw I have no notes on anyone else at the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    This hand is a perfect example of chasing bad money with bad money. How one mistake can compound significantly.

    Agree with Keith, fold pre.

    You are on the immediate left of a player you label as a donkey, and you think this is one of the better spots you're going to get? (23s from utg+1 vs his utg?). I find that hard to believe!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  6. #6
    This would be bad on Zynga!

    You can't outplay somebody you have pegged as a fish by bluffing. You outplay them by folding in spots they cant and having better bet sizing. Seems like you just wanted to get your big, swinging e-dick out here and try to show off without thinking about the consequences. I think you and I are similar players in this sense tho and I realised recently that one of main motivators for playing poker is to own people. Doing so in this kind of fashion has probably cost me a few hundred buy-ins over the past couple of years.
  7. #7
    Has he only done this once or have you seen it multiple times? I'm not sure if you can make moves based on one just action (as opposed to seeing him do this more than once) . He could have been raging after a bad beat and had a 'fuck it' moment or something
    Last edited by renegaderob1; 01-09-2015 at 04:37 AM.
  8. #8
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Fold pre. It's not even close, really.

    YES, do all the things you said you want to do against this Villain, just do them with non-trash hands.
    Just 'cause 32s looks like a suited connecter, that don't make it so. It can barely make any straights, and when it catches a pair, it always has nut low pair with nut low kicker, and a 3-high flush is gonna get over-flushed a fair amount.

    You should defend wider against this guy. You just took it to the extent of calling a hand from MP that implies a range of over 50% to an EP opener.
  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    This hand is a perfect example of chasing bad money with bad money. How one mistake can compound significantly.

    Agree with Keith, fold pre.

    You are on the immediate left of a player you label as a donkey, and you think this is one of the better spots you're going to get? (23s from utg+1 vs his utg?). I find that hard to believe!
    this.
    fold pre. not close, nothing can justify this preflop call. Sorry.
  10. #10
    Don't be sorry, I posted this hand for a reason. I realised I was spewing at the time, but giving up seemed even worse than calling pre and then snapfolding to flop bet. I'm not calling 23s to make a hand, I'm calling it to win the hand. There's a subtle difference there.

    Villain tankfolded river at $2.15. I suppose he had A8dd, or he realised I was repping thin and considered a hero call with ace high. No way he folds a queen, not based on how I perceive his skill level. But I expect him to overplay top pair on the flop. This is why I was prepared to call junk against him. I felt like I had huge implied odds, and that I can outplay him.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Oh I should point out that I exercised my zoom tactic of tank calling pre flop to encourage those behind me to fast fold any marginal hands they were considering squeezing with.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    Are you going to get in this guy's face every single time you see him? Are you that confident you're that much better than him? That's how bad he has to be for you to get in with 23 ...and if he's that bad there's a fair chance he's got better since you last saw him.
  13. #13
    That open shove could well have been AA: at that level it may well get called enough to be a solid move -even if it's not a solid move it doesn't mean he's going to shove any top pair.


    Flop is obviously shit, but he doesn't shove. That tells me he folds to a raise. Standard raise based on my reason for calling pre flop. He calls. I'm super confident now that he's drawing, and diamonds appear to be all he can reasonably have.
    He didn't fold.
    When you "know" he will do something and he doesn't alarm bells should ring! At this point he could have almost anything.

    Unless you know more about your note than it says you're giving it far too much weight.
  14. #14
    Fold pre fold flop after your preflop misclick. There is simply zero reason to try and turn a profit with a hand that you simply cannot turn a profit with. This isn't exploiting villain. You have the table left to act behind you, your position will suck when it goes multiway, your hand makes the worst possible flushes, and even if villain is a huge donk, he's opening UTG to top it all off.
  15. #15
    I think the most relevant thing about this hand is not even this hand itself, but more about a general poker mindset that you may have that can definitely be a leak. It's representative of the fact that you think i) being better than villain and/or ii) having position on villain, will allow you to run over them and make plays and get away with it.

    Once in a while this may be true, and you may be able to get away with plays. But I'm going to assume that the scenario where you're IP on a person you feel you are better than happens pretty often, such that if you start deviating and trying to make moves whenever this type of situation arises, the frequency of this will be far too high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  16. #16
    Cheers guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
    plays like this work much better in a live setting.

    ong I say fuck em all, bleed that summa bitch dry from that read until he decides to do something about it. lmao
    "The harder you work, the luckier you get." ~ courtesy of my fortune cookie from china king

    "One of the best pieces of advice I've ever read in this forum was three words long...

    bet fucking fold." Ong

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