Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,291,000 Posts!
Poker ForumSmall Stakes NL Hold'em

Some 4bet spots

Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    jimmy44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,429
    Location
    Place where I can spew

    Default Some 4bet spots

    Hi guys,

    Lately I got into some weird 4bet pots where villain called the 4bet, I guess it's a pretty gross to call unless I'm pretty weird at the tables which I'm not, I'm TAG but agro postflop in some spots.

    Here are 2 hands I wanted some feedback:

    1) Villain was standard agro TAG at 6max and seemed to 5bet push standard QQ+/AK or fold but not this time. My read on the 4bet call was that he had QQ+ (I've seen a couple of tags calling 4bet with QQ so I guess KK+ was possible as well). My 4bet/bluff was standard and I was going to call a push but now I see that my 4bet was no good, 4betting to 3.3-3.4 was much better and this might have been the reason for villain's spasm call?
    Now on the flop QQ and KK would not bet very often this flop I suppose? flop fold is better I think? And river the question is he bluffing 1/4 of the time?

    Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php
    Button ($10)
    SB ($8.32)
    UTG ($10.62)
    BB ($6.95)
    MP ($15.07)
    Hero (CO) ($15.20)
    Preflop: Hero is CO with A, 5
    1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises $0.40, Button raises $1.45, 3 folds, Hero raises $2.90, Button calls $1.85
    Flop: ($6.85) A, 4, 4 (2 players)
    Hero checks, Button bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50
    Turn: ($11.85) J (2 players)
    Hero checks, Button checks
    River: ($11.85) 6 (2 players)
    Hero checks, Button bets $4.20 (All-In), Hero ?


    2) Another TAG villain at 6max that seemed to 5bet push standard QQ+/AK or fold but not this time. Here this was a 4bet/fold to 5bet, but maybe again this was the problem for the spasm call? Maybe 4bet is too small, $3.1 is better I think, then I can call a shove as I'll have enough equity vs QQ+/AK.
    Flop was amazing though
    After looking at equilab, we have 37% equity vs villain possible JJ+/AK. So this is push on the flop, no? we'd be betting $7.3 on $6.10 pot?
    As played, turn is a call as at the least we have enough odds for the nut flush unless villain has QQ/JJ or course.
    Now river is really gross, it's either splitting or he has KK/QQ/JJ here?

    Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/
    MP ($1.74)
    BB ($14.83)
    SB ($10.05)
    UTG ($10)
    Hero (Button) ($14.92)
    Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 3
    2 folds, Hero raises $0.30, SB raises $0.95, 1 fold, Hero raises $2.70, SB calls $2
    Flop: ($6.10) Q, J, 10 (2 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks
    Turn: ($6.10) 10 (2 players)
    SB bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30
    River: ($8.70) K (2 players)
    SB bets $5.75 (All-In), Hero ???
  2. #2
    jimmy44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,429
    Location
    Place where I can spew
    Thinking about hand 2 again this seems like so much AA/AK but pushing the river is pretty awful as my range looks a lot like QQ
  3. #3
    A5: I think this is a fine hand to 4bet bluff with. People are getting more sticky against 4bets now though, especially against small sizing. I'd also question how much we want to bluff when we open so huge with regs behind and get 3bet so huge. 2.5bb-3bb is plenty big enough for an open.

    As played, you have a bluff catcher and can play accordingly. I think flop is fine as we'll check call QQ/KK too. You're going to see JJ+, KQs, AQ calling a 4bet pre, plus some bs if a redfish is tilting. Bluffing with low fold equity on the river would seem like madness, so I think you'll mostly see AQ here.

    A3: I think your 4bet sizing is unnecessarily big with these stacks and in position. Flop is almost as good as it gets and smacks both of your range hard. I'd bet $2 and call it off, and likely check back turn unimproved. As played, gross if he has it but we chop too much to fold.

    Are you playing Fast Forward on Party?
  4. #4
    Hand 2, bet that flop. Agree with bean, 4bet sizing is too big here, we don't need to x3 when 4betting. Around $2.20 seems better. Both hands we can fold pre flop against a TAG, but 4betting is ok if we're doing it to balance our 4bet range. I don't like this as sheer habit with Axs though.

    First hand I'm folding river, really don't see villain stabbing this with worse than our hand; second hand I'd probably call this over the table but actually I think upon analysis it's a clear fold. If villain has TT/JJ/QQ/AK (reasonable range given our sizing pre) then he has 7 combos of full house and 9 combos of AK. Over 16 hands it's costing us 16*$5.75= $92 to showdown, pot at river is $8.70 so the 9 times we chop we're taking $4.35 per hand, which is $39.15, therefore we're losing over $50 every 16 hands against a range of TT/JJ/QQ/AK, before we even factor in rake. We really need him to have bluffs in his range so that we can win the whole pot at least sometimes, but I think this is highly unlikely given the action and sizing. This river call seems like a big loser. Of course, it's not an easy fold because of the perceived strength of our showdown value.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    More on h2... his sizing on the turn really doesn't look like AK. He'd have flopped the nuts, see the board pair on the turn, AK doesn't bet this turn 1/4 of the pot having missed a flop c/r. I feel like we're crushed here, it's extremely hopeful that we're even chopping.

    It's a fold, a very clear but not very easy one.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 12-19-2016 at 05:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    I think we can actually fold the turn vs that bet. Our hand looks tasty, that size looks good, but we're not drawing to the nuts. We're still only improving something like 1 in 5 times (pairing the ace is no good), so we're still not actually getting direct pot odds to call, meaning we need some implied odds. The reverse implied odds absolutely hammer us, so I think he gives us the chance to get away from this at the turn.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 12-19-2016 at 05:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Hand 1 - I'd prob cb flop like $0.95 or something super small and likely double super small too. I think there is value here with v small bets vs TT-KK. Don't love J turn though, given I perceive his most likely hands as TT-QQ and AQ.

    Hand 2 - Oh man you were gifted that flop in a 4b pot with A3. Just ship it imo. It's just over a pot size shove. Shove your entire range, this board is too coordinated to get fancy. It's not like you can b/f any hand here anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  8. #8
    jimmy44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,429
    Location
    Place where I can spew
    thanks guys!
    @The Bean Counter: No, I was playing standard 6max in bwin/party.

    Hand 1: Love griffey's line approach. And indeed 4bet pre size was bad. And on the river I see that mostly this will be for value.
    Hand 2: Again, easy flop push Maybe indeed his size looks a lot like the nuts trying to get value. But pushing JJ/QQ/KK on the river won't get many calls, no?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •