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Should I have re-raised OTF here?

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  1. #1

    Default Should I have re-raised OTF here?

    No reads
    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    8 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    UTG redkrauch ($2.96) 148bb
    UTG+1 comov75 ($1.25) 63bb
    MP1 VladKHB13 ($1.68) 84bb
    MP2 Alex_T070 ($1.04) 52bb
    CO CBET-BCE9I-RUSI ($1.85) 93bb
    BTN Hero ($1.81) 91bb
    SB pagan01 ($4.17) 209bb
    BB MandoopB ($3.68) 184bb

    Pre-Flop: (0.03, 8 players) Hero is BTN
    redkrauch calls $0.02, comov75 raises to $0.06, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.06, 2 folds, redkrauch calls $0.04
    Flop: ($0.21, 3 players)

    redkrauch checks, comov75 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, redkrauch calls $0.10

    Turn: ($0.51, 3)
    redkrauch checks, comov75 bets $0.24, Hero calls $0.24, redkrauch calls $0.24 River: ($1.23, 3)

    redkrauch checks, comov75 checks, Hero checks

    Final Pot: $1.23
    comov75 shows two pair, Aces and Deuces

    redkrauch shows two pair, Fives and Deuces

    comov75 wins $1.19 (net +$0.79)

    Hero lost $0.40
    redkrauch lost $0.40

    I called a raise on BU, flop comes and I hit middle pair with flushdraw. Ace of diamonds is on the board so i am happy about that leaving only Kd that would beat me if flush comes. When UTG leads out into 2 others I think alot of his range has Ax in it so he likely has top pair .My thought process OTF was we have middle pair and a flushdraw we arn't going to raise him because hes likely ahead and and we want to bet for value against worse hands, so I call the 5bb. Turn comes and he bets 1/2 pot again giving me 3:1 I know I need 4:1 for flush draw I also have outs for a Q and/or 8 aswell as another player behind me who may call aswell and give me 4:1. I call because I feel I can get more out of him if board hits for me . River comes and it helps me none , I dont bother trying to bluff him off top pair and I lose $0.40. Reflecting on the hand I think maybe I should have re-raised villain OTF because of his small bet but I also didnt want him to fold anything weaker or even the Ace ( I doubt he would've unless it was a really weak one) since I had good chances at improving my hand I wanted to keep people in the pot . What could I have done better ?
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-17-2020 at 08:36 AM.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    St Louis, MO
    You do have reads, and talking about a poker hand without your reads is pointless.

    If it's your first orbit at the table, then post your population reads.

    You do not have to post blinds the moment you sit down at a seat. It is your right to watch an orbit (or more) before you play a hand on any poker site I ever played on.
    Stop playing against villains you know nothing about. Sit out and watch them for 5 minutes or so before you start playing against them.

    Besides, you have reads from THIS hand you're actively in. You posted them. You guessed at ranges. Excellent!
    That tells me that you are paying attention to the Villains.
    So that's why I'm guessing that you're not putting enough weight onto having reads in the first place. Your number one goal at the table is to understand the specific villains you're up against so you can shred them like a boss.
    Your number one goal when away from the tables is to understand yourself, your positional ranges, how your ranges hit various flop textures, how you bet in HU vs. multi-handed pots, etc.
    It's not the only goal. Thinking about villains is always important, but you must understand what you're doing in order to understand what they're doing, IMO.

    I'm picking on the first line of this post because the rest of the hand is pretty trivial and you played it fine. You don't raise to bluff your hand without a read that Villain can fold to your raise.

    In general, don't try to bluff in multi-handed pots. You gotta bluff not either, but BOTH villains to get it through, and that's much less frequent. If one of them would fold 1/3 the time and the other 1/2 the time, then your bluff will only work against both of them 1/6 the time.

    Also note that your implied odds in multi-handed pots goes up quite a bit. Being on a strong draw in a multi-handed pot is almost always +EV to call. The more villains that can pay you off when you hit the nuts, the better.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    St Louis, MO
    Both villains play PRE is horrendous for 8-handed play, IMO.
    Limp/calling from UTG is burning monies. Don't do it. If your hand isn't strong enough to open with a 4x raise, then muck it.
    Playing 77- from UTG can be difficult enough. It's not even worth the mental effort at most tables at the micros.

    There's so much fat value to be had, that spending mental effort on thin value is kinda just mentally straining and makes for more breaks needed and shorter sessions overall. You can't run from the post-flop thin value, but you can from pre-flop.
    It's one of those things like, "what use of my time makes the most impact, accelerates my poker growth the most right now?" Yes, getting every piece of value out of every possible avenue is the long term goal, but that's gotta be broken into smaller bits. Spending an hour to increase your bb/100 by 1% isn't as good as spending an hour to increase it by 10%.
    IMO, playing a nitty-tight range pre puts you in exactly the place you need to be to know how to play strong hands post flop. Learn to grab fat value first. Learn to make disciplined folds when the consequences of failing to do so are mitigated by your strong preflop game.

    UTG called down 2 streets post flop with an underpair to the board against 2 villains. Just madness. They had 2 outs. Fold OTF when you miss your setmine.

    Raising an UTG limp with 3x is dubious more often than not. Doing so with ATo is madness. I don't mind this play from the CO or BTN, but from early position, you're going to fail to isolate UTG with that bet, and end up in the squeeze spot post flop more often than not.
    (Not that anyone at the micros understands when to squeeze, but whether or not they know when to do it for pressure, they'll do it by accident sometimes, and it's rough trying to decide to call or fold when you're not closing the action.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #4
    What do you mean by population reads? What type of reads can I use to crush villain
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    St Louis, MO
    Population reads are when you apply the "average player at these stakes would do ..." to a villain on whom you don't know about.
    This should most commonly be a factor for you when a new player sits down at your table, not when you sit down at a new table. I do recommend watching any table you're thinking of sitting at before you actually sit.

    If you have a choice of 2 tables to sit down at... which one should you choose? The one with the most fish, and ideally where you're not sitting to the immediate right of one of the not-so-fishy players.
    How will you know which table offers that?
    You watch the tables play before you sit down at either one.

    Table selection can mean the difference between a winning session and a break-even session. It's 100% worth your time.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    St Louis, MO
    All reads are used to crush villains. Whatever they're doing, they're not doing it perfectly at the micros. The odds that they're (or you, either) are doing anything "text-book" perfectly is about 0. If you were that deep into the game, you wouldn't be at the micros. It's fine. We all started life as babies and had to learn to be who we are now. Now is not the end of the story, either.

    When I'm posting about villains in my responses, I'm giving you reads, and often telling you how to respond to those reads. Usually, the read implies the response.
    E.g. Villains fold too much when I bet a made hand. That's the read.
    You bet more frequently into this villain with the bottom hands in your range, so they not only fold to your made hands, but also to your bluffs. That's how you crush that leak.

    I said Villain limping UTG was bad. That's the read.
    I said if you're not willing to open the betting to 4x, then just muck your hand. That's what they should be doing.
    I didn't tell you how to respond, specifically, because your pre-flop hand-selection already should crush this leak. Your pre-flop bet-sizing already crushes this leak.

    We're working through a huge landscape of leaks and responses, and I get it that it may sound like I'm just changing the subject in every post I write. It's unfortunate that poker is so hard to learn, but actually, that's why the fish don't think they're fish, and that's why it's possible to be a big winner in poker.
    Compare it to darts or billiards. Player skill is so dominant in those games that the winner is a foregone conclusion before the match starts. This is also true in backgammon, but a bit less so. The odds that the underdog can come out ahead are very slim. So everyone who competes in those games knows exactly where they stand in the rankings. In poker, the fish can keep telling themselves they're just "unlucky" and keep being fish.

    Try not to be daunted by the fact there's so much to learn in poker. It's a blessing, not a curse.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  7. #7
    How would I summarize the. Notes on fish and how would I exploit his poor play? If he limps with A10 then calls oop I understand that’s weak and poor play, and the other guy with pocket 55 is funny for still being in the hand but how can I use this knowledge to my advantage ? I know they played poorly but I don’t know if it was a fluke or if it’s continuous ,
  8. #8
    everything you said here I just absorbed like a sponge, all of this information is very valuable and useful, i thank you very much . I have read it over a few times today now and have made notes of it on my computer.
  9. #9
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    St Louis, MO
    How you summarize the notes is totally up to you. You're the only one who will ever read them. Try to abbreviate everything you can, and to get as much info in there with the minimum number of keystrokes. Keeping your abbreviations unambiguous is important so you can make sense of them later. You want to be able to get a lot of info with a glance, knowing exactly what you're seeing.

    L/C 55 UTG x/c 2st w/undpr
    read: limp/called 55 UTG, then x/c on 2 streets with no set

    O 3xUTG1 ATo B1/2PSB 2st A86dd, 2, x 2
    read: opened ATo to 3x from UTG+1, then bet 1/2 PSB on A86 with 2 diamonds. Bet another 1/2 PSB OTT when a rag hit, then checked OTR when the board paired. The flush draw never came in.

    Those are just my own notes, in my style. Those notes contain each villain's entire betting line in this hand.

    The response to loose pre-flop ranges is tight pre-flop ranges, which I've been counseling you to use all along.
    Let's dig into some actual suggested starting ranges for 9-handed play in another thread.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  10. #10
    Pre flop is loose but just about ok. Flop, I'd raise this, but calling is ok too. I'd be calling turn, not raising. River is definitely a check. I'd have folded if he bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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