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My friend thinks I should always fire a 2nd barrel on gutshots...I don't.

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  1. #1

    Default My friend thinks I should always fire a 2nd barrel on gutshots...I don't.

    First of all, my friend has a very low opinion of my abilities as a poker player. Extremely low. He thinks of all the poker players he knows in his immediate group of friends, I am the worst, in part because I rarely do much homework on my game despite all the materials at my disposal.

    Here's the problem I"m running into. And we're not talking about gut shots with A. dirty outs, or B. dumb end gut shots. Clean gut shots for the most part.

    My redline looks atrocious, and my W$WSF is only 40.4 with a 23 VPIP (16.8 PFR) at this moment over an 85,000 hand sample. But IMO this doesn't really matter because I am consistently proving myself over an 85,000 hand sample to have a good win rate that is actually crushing 25nl over the long haul.

    AE Jones had a test for your skill as a poker player which was to multiply your W$WSF by your VPIP to get an idea of your skills at a poker player, I'm in probably the low 900's and he's in the 1300's or so. he has a wider PF range than me and wins a lot more pots when he sees a flop.

    He plays tables 100nl, 200nl, and occasionally 400nl, and has occasionally (when his bankroll's doing really good) play 1000nl and 2000nl (Not 600nl though because he doesn't like dividing by 6's).

    I mostly play 25nl and 50nl. I have a winrate over 85,000 hands in the current sample, that he's not entirely convinced that I'm a truly winning player despite this, of 8.3bb/100.

    My red line looks atrocious, but IMO that's ok because people simply don't fold at these stakes. Most of my money comes from hands that go to showdown.

    You can't bluff someone if they have an extremely high propensity to call which is a very large proportion of my competition at 25nl and to a lesser extent 50nl. You can bluff at the higher stakes because people are much more easily capable of finding their fold button when their livelihood is on the line as opposed to the mostly recreational players I'm against.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is this, bluffing and taking down pots without going to showdown has much more value IMO at 100nl and above, and a closer to "nut peddling" strategy, as simple as it may be, has much more value at 50nl and below, what I play at. He's thinking like a higher stakes player trying to beat the medium and high stakes poker tables, and I'm thinking as a player who's crushing the micros and low stakes poker tables.

    He wants me 3/4 potting all OESD's, clean gut shots, Flush draws and TP's on flop as well as turn. I told him I think that my blue line would suffer tremendously if I did that, particularly on the gut shots, and he got angry with me, says I'll always be a shitty poker player and whatnot, I'll always have a shitty W$WSF, my 40.4 W$WSF is evidence that I'm a terrible poker player who will always be stuck in the micros and never be able of playing at my ultimate goal which is 100nl and 200nl.

    If I'm putting my opponent on a range (Oh btw he thinks my hand reading skills are absolutely bar none the worst of anyone he knows) and according to his range, play style (which tends to be a lot of Loose-Passive calling stations) and the board texture, if I held my villains range, and I would call close to every time, he thinks I should still semi-bluff double barrel regardless. But if I know ahead of time that my opponents going to call and 9x out of 10 I'll brick the turn or river, why the hell should I be barreling there EVERY TIME?

    He judges me based on my red line, not my results over 85,000 hands, claims I'm still not a winning player. I don't know what to do about it really. Appease my friend and let my bankroll suffer, or continue to play how I've been playing which ultimately beats my stake level over the long haul.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 05-16-2016 at 01:47 AM.
  2. #2
    Why don't you invite your friend to FTR to tell us from his pov why he thinks you suck?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why don't you invite your friend to FTR to tell us from his pov why he thinks you suck?
    I can't help but think that would stress the friendship further than it already is.
  4. #4
    I have a problem once more with the word "always" when referring to double barrelling gutshots. Against some people, this would be a profitable play. A lot of people will float flop and fold turn with things like overcards+bdfd, intending to bluff if you check the turn, so firing a second barrel against these kind of players would be better than against, say, someone we know will not fold 99 on Q88A when we fire again.

    The key is to profile your opponents and exploit their tendancies. Next time your friend says you should "always" do something, tell him that people on a poker forum are taking issue with this language, and explain why. I'd be curious to know what a high stakes player has to say about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I have a problem once more with the word "always" when referring to double barrelling gutshots. Against some people, this would be a profitable play. A lot of people will float flop and fold turn with things like overcards+bdfd, intending to bluff if you check the turn, so firing a second barrel against these kind of players would be better than against, say, someone we know will not fold 99 on Q88A when we fire again.

    The key is to profile your opponents and exploit their tendancies. Next time your friend says you should "always" do something, tell him that people on a poker forum are taking issue with this language, and explain why. I'd be curious to know what a high stakes player has to say about that.
    Well it boils down to my friend has a high opinion of his abilities at the poker tables, and I am damn near the bottom in his opinion of my abilities at the tables.

    He thinks that for a 4 year poker "veteran" I am practically like a 6 month or 1 year newbie.

    He has this document for beginner poker players called "No Bullshit 6-max" made by Bestpokercoaching.com, I read it over, studied it, took notes on it. And he doesn't think I'm "good enough" to deviate at ALL from the document.

    And he was sweating me a few hands, and noticed I didn't double barrel a gutshot, I forget why but I don't think it was as big of a deal as he made it out to be. He said that I haven't been doing my homework clearly, because I didn't barrel my gutshot. Ok, I don't like homework, so I probably don't do near the amount of homework he wishes I would do.

    I personally think that if I double barrel all my gutshots (not counting dirty outs and dumb end straight draw gut shots), that my blue line will suffer (and thus my green line) more than my red line will benefit, particularly where I'm not allowed to differentiate between what opponents I'm up against at the tables.

    But if I pull up the document, it says this play for flop/turn.

    "Flop
    • Always make a continuation bet (=cbet) always if you have a gutshot or better.
    Exception: Underpairs (44 on 89T board)

    Turn:
    • Bet again ¾ pot with a gutshot, OESD, FD, 2nd pair or better"

    He thinks any reasoning I have to deviate from this document, is inherently bad reasoning on my part because according to him I don't know how to think as a poker player. And that's where my disagreement comes in, I think this line works better against opponents capable of folding, does not work well, particularly on gutshots at least, against opponents who don't fold which this might seem like a wild estimation but I estimate that could be 50% of my opponents at 25nl, I mean some of my opponents will call down double and triple barrels with as little as 2nd pair and my plays at the table are tailored to that type of population read on my opponent, and without being results oriented, I've had 8.3bb/100 results playing the way I do in the past 85,000 hands when I started a new sample.

    The document makes no differentiation between when your villain is a Hyper-Aggressive fish, vs a super tight passive rock or even board textures for that matter. Which is my issue with the document, but he's adamant that I follow it to a T. He encourages me to reference the document before I make my play at the table, because he thinks if I go with my instinct, more often than not (despite having a 8.3bb/100 win rate over 85,000 hands with absolutely no document) I will inherently make a bad decision at the table.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 05-16-2016 at 07:13 AM.
  6. #6
    He thinks any reasoning I have to deviate from this document, is inherently bad reasoning on my part because according to him I don't know how to think as a poker player. And that's where my disagreement comes in, I think this line works better against opponents capable of folding, does not work well, particularly on gutshots at least, against opponents who don't fold.
    Ok I think I can see where he's coming from without me taking issue with his language. It's not the he just blindly double barrels a gutshot, it's that he doesn't think you're capable enough of accurately profile villains to the level required for you to know if betting or checking is better, and he feels that betting is the superior default setting. I'm not sure I agree with him, but he's better than me so I'm not going to get into that, other than to say I don't tend to double barrel gutshots as a default.

    Maybe it would help if you explain to your friend why you think villain won't fold to a 2nd bet. If you're pulling up notes and demonstrating that he chases light, doesn't fold weak pairs etc, then you're demonstrating that you are indeed profiling your villains effectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Your friend seems to be aiming his document at people he doesn't think are good enough to profile villains, that he believes people like you are overestimating your ability to put villains on accurate ranges based on their current actions and previous tendancies.

    That's fair enough. The question is really if he's wrong to think you belong in this group. I can't say one way or the other to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if your friend thinks I belong in this group.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    always is just silly. If your're playing some V who only folds to a DB at 20 percent firing a 2nd barrel is just throwing money away
  9. #9
    I personally wouldn't want to be friends with some negative person that thinks i'm a dumbass. Having said that i see your friend plays 100nl and higher. at those levels always DBing a GS may be something he does for balance.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Your friend seems to be aiming his document at people he doesn't think are good enough to profile villains, that he believes people like you are overestimating your ability to put villains on accurate ranges based on their current actions and previous tendancies.

    That's fair enough. The question is really if he's wrong to think you belong in this group. I can't say one way or the other to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if your friend thinks I belong in this group.
    Today I was playing A4s from the CO, I PFR 3bb and a rock on the BTN calls. Flop comes JQK rainbow with a diamond. So I have a gutshot, a weak over that completes other straights, and a backdoor flush draw on a board that hits the rocks entire range pretty hard. I cbet 4.5bb because technically I am drawing for the nuts (but really, who stacks off on a 4 to a straight board when any A completes the nut straight? I don't think 4 to a straight boards have a lot of implied odds against rocks and competent opponents), backdoor outs and such. Rock calls of course. turn is a 5c or some innocuous card.

    Bricked my backdoor flush draw, now at best I have a gutshot and again a weak over that is at risk to running into 2 pair combos that but for my gutshot I'm drawing dead to anyways, and I don't like to bloat the pot oop either, damn what the document says.

    That document, which makes no differentiation between board textures and opponents or positions at the table, says in the text
    "Turn:
    • Bet again ¾ pot with a gutshot, OESD, FD, 2nd pair or better".

    To me this is purely nuts. I think except perhaps getting a Jack to fold, some low pocket pairs and SC's, or maybe fold out a naked 10, most of the time the rock has easily outflopped me here, I never get called by worse except maybe a naked 10, and to barrel again is ludicrous in my opinion. That time I just went with my instinct and XF'd the turn. I lost maybe an 11bb pot as opposed to say a 25bb if I took it to river.

    When I was in that hand that, I felt that was a prime example of when the document is in fact wrong.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 05-16-2016 at 07:35 AM.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy64 View Post
    I personally wouldn't want to be friends with some negative person that thinks i'm a dumbass. Having said that i see your friend plays 100nl and higher. at those levels always DBing a GS may be something he does for balance.
    I would remain friends with him if I felt I could benefit from his continued critisism. The natural response to critisism is to be defensive, but if you can first stop to ask yourself if that critisism is justified, then you can get past the immediate raw emotion it evokes and instead seek to improve.

    I don't think this guy is being an arsehole just for the fun of it. I assume he is trying to motivate his friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    To me this is purely nuts. I think except perhaps getting a Jack to fold, some low pocket pairs and SC's, or maybe fold out a naked 10, most of the time the rock has easily outflopped me here, I never get called by worse except maybe a naked 10, and to barrel again is ludicrous in my opinion. That time I just went with my instinct and XF'd the turn. I lost maybe an 11bb pot as opposed to say a 25bb if I took it to river.

    When I was in that hand that, I felt that was a prime example of when the document is in fact wrong.
    I agree with your analysis that this is an inappropriate spot to double barrel, and feel that your friend should at least acknowledge that you're analysing the situation. The fact that you recognise that even when you hit the straight your implied odds suck, that tells me that you're thinking about things properly. I don't think you should be betting that turn. I'd be interested to hear why your friend thinks that it is correct as a default for weak players to fire this turn, because it's setting money on fire imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    chardrian's Avatar
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    why do u care so much about what your friend thinks?
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  14. #14
    with the A4s jand shouldn't you be opening 2.5bb from the CO according to NoBS. You also seem to be missing the parts where it says it the basic level to turn losers into winners at the micros and that you buy extra courses to then deviate and win at higher rates .
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    with the A4s jand shouldn't you be opening 2.5bb from the CO according to NoBS. You also seem to be missing the parts where it says it the basic level to turn losers into winners at the micros and that you buy extra courses to then deviate and win at higher rates .
    well if he's given out what me be bad advice at the micros. For example trying to bully sticky players how is he helping anyone
  16. #16
    Jimmy tell your friend he ain't all that if he ain't all that untill he can play at this guys level hasn't https://youtu.be/pvA5D6ZTkkk
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by chardrian View Post
    why do u care so much about what your friend thinks?
    This. You really need to get away from this mindset of always doing x because somebody told you to, irrespective of the situation.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    with the A4s jand shouldn't you be opening 2.5bb from the CO according to NoBS. You also seem to be missing the parts where it says it the basic level to turn losers into winners at the micros and that you buy extra courses to then deviate and win at higher rates .
    That part was the first to go. People call way too much at microstakes as it sits now, lowering my PFR's further down to 2.5bb from CO and 2bb from BTN was garnering even wider calling ranges than it was before, and much more floats on the flop and even the turn which was causing me major problems at the tables from how I had been playing. I absolutely refused to abide by that documents PFRing sizes, I thought it would work at perhaps a higher stake level but would never work at 25nl or less. I heard AE Jones with the same thoughts exactly as the document on PFRing but truth be I really just genuinely don't think it applies to my microstakes opponents, but for regs, most if not all the fish will call a 3bb PFR from the BTN just as often as 2bb, and I'd rather punish them more when I'm in position with a hand that's stronger than their range than do a standard 2bb PFR.

    Anyways this friend of mine, he just cut me off today, says if I don't do a bunch of homework and improve my game by the time he talks to me again, which is in 6 months to 1 year from today, he's never talking to me again.

    Basically says he only wants to hang around poker players who actively work on their game and are making high 5 figures to 6 figures a year in the game.

    F all that. I don't mind doing homework from time to time, but I don't play to make high 5 figures or 6 figures of money at poker. I play it for fun, actually I do it also because it keeps me in the house, I had a few bad run ins with the police some years ago so I basically quit leaving the house as much as I can possibly can and spend most of my time on my pc to avoid police officers in public.

    I don't really care all that much about the money, the money is a side result of my success at the tables, it's icing on the cake, in the last 4 years the total money I've spent that I've earned at the tables was $100 for taking my dad out to a fancy restaurant, that's it, for the most part the money in my poker account never sees the light of day.

    THe only way I can keep him as a friend is if I do an hour of poker homework a day, everyday for the next 6 months, and really should I be friends with a guy who has such an incredibly low opinion of my skills at the tables?
  19. #19
    Your mate sounds mental. GL to him finding anybody genuinely making bank that wants to discuss poker with him too.
  20. #20
    I think this guy would get on my tits. Money is all that matters to him, like it's more important in life to make money than it is to be happy. This is evident in that he's picking his friends based on how financially motivated they are, rather than for normal reasons, like enjoying someone's company.

    You probably need to get out more and meet people who just like hanging out with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think this guy would get on my tits. Money is all that matters to him, like it's more important in life to make money than it is to be happy. This is evident in that he's picking his friends based on how financially motivated they are, rather than for normal reasons, like enjoying someone's company.

    You probably need to get out more and meet people who just like hanging out with you.
    Heh you don't even know the half of it. He'll ask "Have you been doing your homework lately?" And I'll say "No, but I can do an hour right now".

    He says that's the wrong answer, I should be doing an hour of homework before each session and an hour after each session.

    So I said "I'm gonna pull up "Small Stakes No-Limit Hold em by Ed Miller", it's a poker book I kind of like. He tells me my choice of study material is outdated and therefor no good.

    So I have to change to a more "current" source of material to keep him happy. He then gets pissed off and tells me he's cutting me off for a year because I don't respect his demands that I do fuck tons of homework on my poker game like some of his more motivated "students" do.

    The only thing I'll say in his defense, is he's an alpha male, he's proven himself in poker who derives his entire income from what he earns at the tables which is actually pretty good money. I allow him to control me, because I'm Autistic and a Beta male, I like the idea of making money at poker, I mean I'm not opposed to it, but at the same time the amount of time and dedication he wants me to put into the game is a lot more than I expected when I first got into poker, particularly if I want to play on a professional level.

    If I could describe his personality at least when it comes to poker, I'd say it's very similar to Stu Ungar in his prime, he feels he knows far more about the game than the vast majority of people, he puts tons of work, homework and stuff into his game, far more than anyone I've ever met and I think he very well could play at the nosebleeds someday, and he is unrelenting in his ridicule of what he feels are inferior poker players such as myself.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 05-23-2016 at 10:31 PM.
  22. #22
    Here's one for you guys, I remember, he said I should be posting 5 hands A DAY to have you guys review and give me advice on hands.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS1985 View Post
    Here's one for you guys, I remember, he said I should be posting 5 hands A DAY to have you guys review and give me advice on hands.
    This isn't bad advice at all. Anyone here who coaches you would probably say something simliar... maybe not such a specific number, but you'd be advised to note hands from a session that you felt were difficult decisions, and post them for discssion. This really is the eaisest way to get better. I requires very little actual study, instead it's an exchange of opinions between poker players of various skill levels.

    I'm like you. I really cannot be fucked with an hour of homework before and after a session. I was like it at school... fuck homework, this is my time, I wanna play football. I totally get your reluctance, it's critical for me that I enjoy playing poker, otherwise I just won't bother. If I'm having to work too hard, the enjoyment goes and I do something else instead.

    This is one reason I haven't really pushed the coaching thing myself. I had a coaching session with a former member here (one I didn't particularly like as a person but respected as a poker player, I'll add), and while I felt I got a great deal from having an insight into the mind of an excellent poker player, I didn't continue with the sessions because I really couldn't be bothered to study, I just wanted to get better by playing as much as I felt good about, and talking through hands with better players.

    Of course, had I put the hours in, I'd probably be a lot better than I am. It's also possible that I'd hate poker by now.

    I'll add that I don't need to like someone to work with them or respect them. I can understand why you've stuck with your friend. But if it's grinding you down slowly, better to cut ties with him and allow your game to develop naturally, see if you've naturally got what it takes. Good luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This isn't bad advice at all. Anyone here who coaches you would probably say something simliar... maybe not such a specific number, but you'd be advised to note hands from a session that you felt were difficult decisions, and post them for discssion. This really is the eaisest way to get better. I requires very little actual study, instead it's an exchange of opinions between poker players of various skill levels.

    I'm like you. I really cannot be fucked with an hour of homework before and after a session. I was like it at school... fuck homework, this is my time, I wanna play football. I totally get your reluctance, it's critical for me that I enjoy playing poker, otherwise I just won't bother. If I'm having to work too hard, the enjoyment goes and I do something else instead.

    This is one reason I haven't really pushed the coaching thing myself. I had a coaching session with a former member here (one I didn't particularly like as a person but respected as a poker player, I'll add), and while I felt I got a great deal from having an insight into the mind of an excellent poker player, I didn't continue with the sessions because I really couldn't be bothered to study, I just wanted to get better by playing as much as I felt good about, and talking through hands with better players.

    Of course, had I put the hours in, I'd probably be a lot better than I am. It's also possible that I'd hate poker by now.

    I'll add that I don't need to like someone to work with them or respect them. I can understand why you've stuck with your friend. But if it's grinding you down slowly, better to cut ties with him and allow your game to develop naturally, see if you've naturally got what it takes. Good luck!
    I'm done trying to keep this guy happy. If someone forces me to do too much of something, I eventually start hating the task at which I'm suppose to get "good" at. I am VERY CLOSE TO HATING POKER if I go by my friends plans for me on the homework he wants me to be doing.

    Between the ages of 8 and 10, my dad took me to swimming lessons. It's important to teach your children how to swim, I get that, you know so they don't drown. However the 2nd year, and particularly the 3rd year of swimming lessons I started hating the pool because I didn't like having to drop what I was doing once a week like clockwork to go learn how to swim. The tests were stupid, the only way to graduate to the next level of swim lessons was to get literally 100% on every test, and I'd get 90-95% and thus fail the class, have to repeat the same shit all over again, over the next semester, and the semester after that. Finally the kids in my grade level were getting younger and younger than me because I had failed the same class several times in a row.

    As a result after I was 10 years old, I rarely went to the pool, whereas most kids love going to the pool, I actually hated the pool. Even when I was 160lbs with a 6pack in my teenage years (I'm now a fat 31 year old who smokes, 250lbs and definitely don't look good in a pool setting anymore) and hot girls my age in a bikini, you couldn't get me to go near a pool just because the constant learning how to swim made me hate all things swimming related even if it was meant for enjoyment and socialzing.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 05-24-2016 at 08:27 AM.
  25. #25
    Swimming is a great example of something that should be fun, but ceases to be when it becomes an intensive lesson. I loved going swimming as a kid, but I'm talking about going to the Glades, where they had slides and waves. I hated swimming at school, because that meant doing lengths and trying to be faster than last time.

    Poker is different in that it's not just about fun. If I didn't make any money playing it, I wouldn't bother. So money is a factor, but that's only because I enjoy other things more than poker. It's just those other things don't make me any money. But the principle is the same... when something dominates your life to the point it stops being fun, it requires an ever increasing amount of motivation to maintain interest. Eventually it stops being worth it.

    At least you've recognised that you're reaching this point in poker, rather than past it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #26
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS1985 View Post
    Here's one for you guys, I remember, he said I should be posting 5 hands A DAY to have you guys review and give me advice on hands.
    I agree that it's a great way to amplify your understanding of poker in a rapid way.

    If you're skeptical that this is for you, you could always ask him to show you some of the hands he has posted. Then you two could talk about what benefits he feels he gets from this procedure. Sometimes just knowing why you're "in it" is enough to make a big task seem smaller.

    I'm not convinced that it's significantly different to actively post hands vs. being a person who is constantly adding to the discussion. Participation is the most powerful learning tool. The best form of participation will vary from person to person.

    Bear in mind that we learn when we are paying attention to something. Being interested in the subject matter makes a great deal of difference. So, whatever keeps you interested in thinking about the deeper motivations and skills in poker, do it. You will be better at poker if you feed that interest.
  27. #27
    I'm not convinced that it's significantly different to actively post hands vs. being a person who is constantly adding to the discussion. Participation is the most powerful learning tool. The best form of participation will vary from person to person.
    I've found that I've gotten more from discussing other peoples' hands than discussing my own. It helps a lot that there's better players than me to point out where my thinking is wrong.

    If I post a hand, it's probably because I didn't really know what to do, so I tend to take a back seat in discussion, and listen more intently to others. When I'm discussing other peoples' hands, I say what I would do, and then see if better players disagree with me. This has been, in my opinion, my most fruitful method of improving.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28
    I think it's absurd to make general sweeping comments like "always double barrel OESD and gutshots etc etc".

    There are probably certain boards / runouts vs certain villains I'm happy to double or triple off on a bricked gutshot, and others where I only fire once with the Nut FD. I wouldn't think too much about generalized sweeping advice.

    Also don't fall into the blue line / red line trap. Are you happy with your green winnings line? Are you happy with your winrate? Everyone is entitled to their own style. Just focus on the green line imo.

    Sure if you think fixing your red line will open up a whole aspect of your game and help your GREEN line, then go for it. But don't lose sight of the end goal - winnings/winrate. Not showdown winnings and not non-showdown winnings.. just winnings.
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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    I think it's absurd to make general sweeping comments like "always double barrel OESD and gutshots etc etc".

    There are probably certain boards / runouts vs certain villains I'm happy to double or triple off on a bricked gutshot, and others where I only fire once with the Nut FD. I wouldn't think too much about generalized sweeping advice.

    Also don't fall into the blue line / red line trap. Are you happy with your green winnings line? Are you happy with your winrate? Everyone is entitled to their own style. Just focus on the green line imo.

    Sure if you think fixing your red line will open up a whole aspect of your game and help your GREEN line, then go for it. But don't lose sight of the end goal - winnings/winrate. Not showdown winnings and not non-showdown winnings.. just winnings.
    May's been a rough month, i've turned a profit, just nowhere near close to something you could live off of, but right as of now over a 96,824 hand sample, I'm averaging 6.93bb/100. Yes my red line looks like trash, but yea that's what bothers me about him is he seems to judge me a lot more on my red line than my bb/100 and green line.

    Lucky for me I won't have to talk to him until November.
  30. #30
    Sure if you think fixing your red line will open up a whole aspect of your game and help your GREEN line, then go for it. But don't lose sight of the end goal - winnings/winrate. Not showdown winnings and not non-showdown winnings.. just winnings.
    This couldn't have been said any better.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #31
    Boy am I glad I found this thread! I know for a fact my friend is talking about me in here even though he never told me about this thread. I don't know his user name or that he had one on here. I read forums a lot to find the latest of what people think or is saying about strategy. I never really post anything or comment on hands as I am looking to exercise my mind figuring out how I would exploit such and such. Mostly because I resent forums after I was made of my first year learning poker for the thoughts I had on the game.Forgive me for my writing I am on a phone and very tired while writing this. I am not going to try and paint to many pictures for anyone as I am sure some have already drew a concluding to what a Ass I am or prick for lack of better words. There is 2 sides of the story and I will tell you guys what has been going on between us.

    I actually coached him for free for about 2 years with little improvements which there are others who actually pay a premium. I give him advice and give him situations and details and I have no problem repeating my self to him. If you tilt and you take it out on me then yes I am not going to sit there and pretend he's doing such a good job. He is a prolific tilted over every hand he loses be it losing 15bb .
    I want to clarify about his A4 hand first before i go on. I didn't see the guy he was talking about is a rock so I am not sure what he considers a rock. I do think if he's a true Nit then I would CB that spot because I will not be messed with very much and preferable to be in position. A4 on the KQJ flop for those who might not have read the hand he's talking about. The reason why it could be good is because a true Nit will have a pp heavy range shih can not stand a single barrel. As a default that is a Shit spot to CB in.
    I help him out a lot though and when I jump on him for home work is when he is tilting telling me bad beat stories and giving me attitude over it. I will say something like well if you would do your home work then you would know the exact spots and not tilt if something doesn't work out. As for always double barreling a gutter as a default and the reason why I do it although flop texture does matter. I am a high CB frequency player and I get floated a lot because of it. I also said it is a rule of thumb and like everything in poker, there is very few absolutes. He's making it sound like I have some astronomical red line. I don't!
    It is Break even to be exact of a average CB and turn CB stats mine is 67% flop CB and turn is about 51%. Player tendencies and there ranges matter a lot. I do agree wit what someone said about if a guy is calling with 3rd pair or even 2ND pair I will not double barrel draws because then we set money on fire. I prefer not to make this thread about me laying blue prints on how to do what and why. I will give a example though which is say a reg calls my open in sb and the flop is A25r he is a tag I CB QJ and the turn is the T or the K I might fire the 2ND barrel because I know he would 3b me a decent amount with strong Broadway's so his range has a lot of small pp and a few random floats. Let's change that flop to A92r right here I will one and don't it because I get all his smaller pp to fold so no he has a sets a few floats MP and top pair. Since I don't think this guy has a lot of middle suited connectors he will not fold a lot when the turn is the T nothing really changes and T9 now gets there . Also on the A25r I actually prefer to check back and delay CB a little more because I know he might peel me to often but I know this reg knows I bet so much air so he will believe I have the A no kicker and garner more folds that way. This is if I don't think I can get enough of his range to fold on this flop which is mostly the case based on ranges assigned.
    I never advocate for beginner type players to make elaborate bluffs because they usually fail and require a good feel player type casting history and even off the table work. In saying that I gave a couple examples that I think people get nervous about barreling in that spot with A25r flop. Someone mentioned maybe I am doing it for balance. I would say lol that is exploitable by far what I am doing is probing people for tendencies something I don't have the op of this thread do. I been doing this for a living for 12 years and for me to have him probe like that for weaknesses and creating tendencies to exploit your opponent would be considered wreck less coaching. The 5 hands a day thing I told him to do because I caught him mindlessly doing things and making some huge errors. I wanted to make sure even if he doesn't do 5 a day that would keep him engaged in his poker session actively identifying spots that gave him trouble. I told him big hands pretty much play them selves so he doesn't have to post his premium hands. He would only show me all his big hands. I told him it is not the big hands that is making your redline slope so far down. Just so we are clear I'm not a huge fan of changing a redline for the sake of redline. All about that green line!!! I would tell him it is small and medium sized pots that hurts the redline or being to bluffable and always giving people credit. He has always been a fan of oh he CR me he has to have it. Or taking hands to far that should have been folded sooner then later. Also being one and Done to much will hurt that redski as well.sorry for the long winded explanation guys. I would clear up one thing which is when I do that with a gutter I am using 2 cards and not one like he talked about A4 on KQJ. If anyone wants to flame me go for it I'm not trippin.
  32. #32
    Best new member introduction post ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #33
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Bit ragey, but understandably so. He was kinda being trash-talked and everyone here was only seeing a side of the story which painted him in a light which he doesn't see himself.

    So he comes in to the room and we're expecting Gargamel, yet we find Papa Smurf.
    (Please forgive the silly metaphor.)

    Would love to see more from this poster.
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post

    So he comes in to the room and we're expecting Gargamel, yet we find Papa Smurf.
    (Please forgive the silly metaphor.)

    Would love to see more from this poster.
    Lol ty guys and this comment was pretty funny and I had to ask my wife who gargamel was. I would post on these forums more but I normally do not know what to ask anyone or talk about. Generally it is because if I have a question about poker I will do home work until I find my answer. I love to talk about poker and answer questions if anyone ends up having any. I just think if I posted stuff on the forums I would write a book about poker lol
  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeshmo View Post
    Lol ty guys and this comment was pretty funny and I had to ask my wife who gargamel was. I would post on these forums more but I normally do not know what to ask anyone or talk about. Generally it is because if I have a question about poker I will do home work until I find my answer. I love to talk about poker and answer questions if anyone ends up having any. I just think if I posted stuff on the forums I would write a book about poker lol

    You would not be the first FTR poster who cleverly used this forum as a resource to test their ideas and develop them into a book.
    https://carrotcorner.com/author/carroters/

    We even had an FTR veteran at the final table of the WSOP Main Event, recently.

    Yeah, he's wearing Draft Kings logo, but we let that slide, 'cause otherwise he wont even come by to visit now and then.


    Give us a shot. Outside of the Beginner's Circle, there are some serious discussions about the less introductory aspects of poker. I find that the OP of whatever thread tends to lead the tone of the discussion, and the mods help support that. So if you are serious and on topic, the discussion will be, too. You may be surprised at the quality of dialogue you will get from our most seasoned veterans. I frequently am, and I know better by now.

    Once our top guys know your head is in the game and you're not trying to find excuses to mash buttons (typical of the Beginner's Circle), you will get our best talent.


    Anyway.
    Ask us or talk about whatever you fancy. Or simply type up a post where you posit a question and come to a conclusion. We love to read good commentary, and we'll almost certainly add to your understanding by contributing our thoughts to your exploration.
  36. #36
    That photo can't be from last year's WSOP. That suit is too drab. He was dressed like a fucking boss at final table.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  37. #37
    So where's Jimmy?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #38
    We've given this guy a hard time, but that's natural as we're going to instinctively support somebody that turns up here and is clearly upset. I'm sure most of us realised this wasn't just one-way traffic, but never mind. I know how frustrating it can be when somebody asks for your help on something that you're a relative expert on and then just ignores everything you suggest or just wants everything spoon fed when you're helping them out for free. Sounds like you two are like an old married couple!
  39. #39
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So where's Jimmy?
    Yeah.

    @Jimmy: Please don't feel like we're taking sides. I'm not, at least.

    I think FTR has a lot to offer each of you, but that it will be different support, due to your differences in poker.
  40. #40
    I am been talking to him and he is improving at poker and some advice i gave him sparked his interest in poker again. He doesn't think you guys are taking sides and i told him he should get on here. He said he will get on again.
  41. #41
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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  42. #42
    good deal i will give you guys a shot. I just refuse to post on like a run it once and not because i don't like them, but yet because i prefer to not talk poker where the highest population of know it alls are at. The little i know about this site i most def like though. I will def go to some poker hands maybe comment on some things.
  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So where's Jimmy?

    First of all, if I've portrayed my friend in a negative light, I apologize. I admit, which is more of a personal failing on my part, than his part, that I do come to this forum to vent about him, which was never the intentions of this forum to begin with in the first place.

    He is my closest friend I do have currently, and he will remain that way, because he truly is good people even if I haven't always portrayed him that way in this forum. He is the only poker player I've met, who will put in 40 hours of homework in a week, and only 20 hours of play. He is the only poker player I've met who I can say is a full blown professional. He is excellent at the game, and thinking on a much deeper level than I can think, or most people on this forum. He raises a wife and 2 kids purely off poker money, which is a testament to how serious, and successful, he takes this game.

    Sometimes I do come on this forum to discuss him as a means of venting, again, that is my way of venting, it is a personal failing on my part as opposed to him. I use to have poor controls over my emotions prior to getting into poker, it is how I have fallen out from past poker forums and finally came across this one, where the people truly are nice and respectful. This is a great forum, to discuss poker, and I'm glad I finally came across it. Thanks to my friend, and poker, I have obtained some level of control over my emotions, which is difficult as an adult living on the Autism spectrum (you can check out my poker stream "Autism Poker!" at twitch.tv/superjew113).

    Once I got into poker I did obtain some control over my emotions, and without a doubt it was a large part thanks to him. Occasionally, I do vent about my closest friend here, but he's truly good people even if I haven't always portrayed him that way. If you have any poker question, it is never a bad idea to get his input on it.

    I would not be a mere HALF of the poker player I am today, if it wasn't for me befriending him back in October of 2014. If I've portrayed him negatively on this forums, it was largely emotions overtaking logic, he truly does strive for all of his students to be extremely successful at the game, like him, and that includes me.

    By no means have I ever claimed to be his best student of poker. But he is easily the best teacher of poker I've ever met.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 12-09-2016 at 11:14 AM.
  44. #44
    Sounds like you guys should start seeing other people....
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Sounds like you guys should start seeing other people....
    LMAO so funny, but i am married with children! hahaha
  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeshmo View Post
    LMAO so funny, but i am married with children! hahaha
    Your kids must be very young still. Soon they will be older and then you'll really know what it's like to have all the answers, but still not be heard.

    You'll be wishing for someone like Jimmy who actually listens!!

    On a serious note, this thread, and others related to it, have been somewhat of an interesting read. I'm a little surprised that both guys are using the word "friend", as they don't seem to have much in common other than debating poker. If that's really the case, I'd recommend spending time together away from poker and mending some fences.

    It's clear that Jimmy wants to be thought of as an equal by Joe. Joe, I think you gotta recognize that and decide what it's going to take for you to treat Jimmy as a contemporary and not a subordinate. Communicate that to Jimmy, and if it doesn't materialize, just move on from each other. There is more than one way to win at this game, and maybe Jimmy is on a different path. If you guys don't recognize that then Jimmy is going to be continually frustrated trying to impress Joe, and Joe is going to be continually frustrated by things not being done 'his way'.

    That sounds bad for both of your games.

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