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Line check few hands 2nl

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  1. #1

    Default Line check few hands 2nl

    I think preflop-turn are standard. On river I think his bet caps his range. I think my hand's removal is pretty irrelevant as the hands we block mostly do not have showdown value which i think he clearly does. So my river plan here is going to be to raise all boats, overpairs, and air and flat with our jacks. This seem ok?

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    MP: 111.5 BB (VPIP: 14.17, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 125)
    CO: 242.5 BB (VPIP: 19.23, PFR: 13.46, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 55)
    Hero (BTN): 100 BB
    SB: 118.5 BB (VPIP: 22.83, PFR: 17.32, 3Bet Preflop: 8.16, Hands: 131)
    BB: 116.5 BB (VPIP: 19.55, PFR: 16.07, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 555)
    UTG: 178 BB (VPIP: 37.36, PFR: 27.47, 3Bet Preflop: 9.38, Hands: 93)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6 5

    fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

    Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) J 3 8
    SB checks, Hero bets 6 BB, SB calls 6 BB

    Turn: (19 BB, 2 players) 7
    SB checks, Hero bets 14 BB, SB calls 14 BB

    River: (47 BB, 2 players) 3
    SB bets 11 BB, Hero raises to 77 BB and is all-in, fold,

    Preflop seems standard.

    My range he is betting into on flop is 77-QQ, T9s-KQs, AJs, and AQs. Of these 55 hands i am definitely continuing with AJ, AQ, any flushes, and sets of sevens. That is only 13 hands which is definitely not enough. If i call with all 88-qq then i am continuing with 43 hands which seems like far too many. I'm not sure how to value the importance of having a diamond vs how high our pair is, nor am I sure how to figure out how many combinations we should continue with. His sizing is rather large which indicates to me that I should be folding slightly more. My hand seems like a call, but not sure.

    On turn he can sometimes have AQ or AJ with the diamond, or even QdJd, but there is no way I'm folding.

    River i'm happy to get a check back, but not sure what we are doing v a bet. If villain shoves he is betting .88 into 2.26 so to stop him from getting a profitable bluff we need to call (1-(.88/(3.06))*100)=~71% Lets assume our flop decision was to call with any 88-qq with a diamond, AJ and AQ. We raise flop with all flopped flushes except KdQd as well as 77. Not sure what bluffs we should add to this raising range. On turn we are folding all of our AQs and AJs so our range that gets to river is literally 88-QQ with a diamon. That is only 15 hands so 15*.71=~11. So fold 88, call with TT-QQ, and call with 75% of or 99? Does this plan make sense?

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4:

    CO: 108.5 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 11)
    BTN: 119.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 22.22, Hands: 48)
    SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
    BB: 120.5 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
    Hero (UTG): 115 BB
    UTG+1: 78 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
    MP: 97.5 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
    MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, MP+1 posts penalty blind 0.5 BB, MP+1 posts penalty blind 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 3 BB) Hero has 9h 9d
    Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 11 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 8 BB

    Flop : (24 BB, 2 players) 7d Ad 3d
    Hero checks, MP+1 bets 17 BB, Hero calls 17 BB

    Turn : (58 BB, 2 players) Kd
    Hero checks, MP+1 bets 27.5 BB, Hero calls 27.5 BB

    River : (113 BB, 2 players) 6d
    Hero checks, MP+1 checks

    1 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    In this hand i think flop is either a c/r or a fold. Not sure if A3o is the best candidate for the c/r.
    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4:

    SB: 118 BB (VPIP: 24.41, PFR: 17.41, 3Bet Preflop: 4.85, Hands: 441)
    Hero (BB): 101.5 BB
    UTG: 110 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 29.69, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 65)
    CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
    BTN: 103 BB (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 5.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 3h Ac
    fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

    Flop : (9 BB, 3 players) Jd 5d 2c
    SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets 5 BB, SB calls 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB

    Turn : (24 BB, 3 players) Td
    SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

    River : (24 BB, 3 players) 5h
    SB bets 16 BB, fold, BTN calls 16 BB
  2. #2
    Hand one: generally speaking, bluff raising rivers vs this line will prove expensive at the micros. That said, we have one of the best combos to do it with and villain looks weak with this blocker sizing. If you're looking at trying to balance a bluffing range on the river, we should have a number of value combos with nut flushes, boats and quads. We could bluff raise busted clubs sometimes and maybe some ace of heart hands. We can flat overpairs, straights, trips and strong jacks, folding our weaker pairs without the ace of hearts and some of our air like Q9 and QT. That's off the top of my head - would be interesting to work through this spot in more depth.

    Try and be more ruthless with your table hopping too. There's no obvious weak spot here based on the stats.

    Hand 2: you might be a little loose with your opens and continuing range UTG at full ring. Villain should be 3betting a tight range of KK+ in this spot, with maybe some suited wheel ace bluffs. That doesn't mean he is, but that's my starting assumption. As played, the Kd specifically should mean you're good here almost always. Flop seems marginal, but probably fine with a diamond.

    Hand 3: I think this would be a decent hand to check raise with Ad as security. That, mixed with sets and maybe some non-nut flush draws and A2dd and A4dd would be a decent range. You're going to get a lot of regs putting you on sets and draws only on this board, so may need to barrel off when the diamond draw comes in. That's why having Ad helps.
  3. #3
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    I see you already know how to use the hand converter. If you open up another tab, you can use the hand converter multiple times while building your post.

    Yeah hand 1 is probably an ideal river bluffing spot at these stakes. Perhaps we don't need to put our entire stack in, it's a big risk relative to the gain. We might get as many folds making a raise to 45bb, which saves us 30bb when he has something he doesn't fold. Does he fold anything to a shove that he doesn't fold vs a raise to 45bb? I'm not sure. A jack hates any raise here. Besides, his line does not look like a jack, not after this river bet. His range looks exclusively like 7xcc 79 7T to me. He has showdown value and wants to realise it cheaply.

    I think a river raise is fine, but not so much.

    h2, I think I'm just gonna c/f this flop. There's a lot of better diamonds in his range. He's 3betting an UTG open so I'm giving him TT+ AK at the widest, though probably QQ+ AK. We're certainly behind here, and we're not winning with a flush often enough to justify the chase. We can't stack off on any runout (except quads) because he has AA and KKd/AKd in a narrow range. There's very little value in the form of implied odds, and lots of reverse implied odds, on either a diamond or a nine river. So I feel this is a disatserous flop for our hand, because it's -ev yet enticing.

    h3, yeah fine. I can one time this flop, considering size of bets and the fact we have an overcard with our draw. Giving up on turn.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 08-02-2017 at 10:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by bean
    Hand 2: you might be a little loose with your opens and continuing range UTG at full ring.
    99 is fine here pre flop imo. Possibly 88 too, depends on table, but I'm not open folding 99 here, and when my UTG open is raised, I'm looking to setmine, and stacks are just about good here. Just. Only because we're UTG.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    First off thanks so much for the help both of you, i surely need it.

    Sorry I don't know whats going on when i post hands. In all cases i just pasted directly out of pt4 and in one case it came out looking nice while the other situations are such a nightmare.

    Hand 1 : I don't really understand why his line looks more like a 7xcc type hand then a jx type hand. Also, in considering sizing here I think I like 40-50 bb is a good size for for value (exploitative) because I think we will get heroed by jacks often with that sizing. We are risking 77 v say 45 blinds to win 58 blinds so we can find the needed increase in FE like: ((77/(77+58))-(45/(45+58)))*100=~13.3%. In other words we need 13.3% better FE for jamming to be worth it. This probably boils back down to my lack of understanding as to why his line does not look like a jack to you, but to me it looks like we would be getting the FE we need.

    Hand 2: What are we doing when we have QQ or JJ with a diamond?
  6. #6
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    I don't really understand why his line looks more like a 7xcc type hand then a jx type hand.
    It's the river bet. Sure a jack can c/c flop and turn then lead out river, but the sizing does not look like someone who thinks he has the best hand. It looks like someone who wants to see a cheap showdown, ie 2nd pair. The only 2nd pair hand he can reasonably have here is 7x hands that flopped a draw. This river bet is a blocker bet. People don't tend to make blocker bets with top pair because they can proftably check/call a bigger bet. Blocker bets are usually made by hands that want to see a showdown but don't want to call a standard bet. Your bets so far suggest you're likely to make a reasonable river bet too. So yeah, if he has a jack, I don't see why he doesn't want you to make such a bet.

    We may well have the fold equity to profitably shove this river. However, if we make a smaller raise, and have exactly the same amount of fold equity, then we're making a more profitable raise, because we lose less the times he doesn't fold. The questions we have to ask are... do we have the same fold equity when we raise to 45bb vs a shove to 75bb, and if not, are those extra calls he makes vs 45bb raise worth more to him than the extra folds he makes vs 75bb shove are worth to us? Personally, I don't see him having much that calls vs 45bb but folds to 75bb. Not after he makes this river bet. So I think a smaller raise will show a larger profit over time. Shoving will still show a profit though, assuming he can fold a jack or doesn't make this river bet with a jack.

    As for h2 with JJd/QQd, I'm still folding. We should only be chasing draws if we either have the correct pot odds to call, or implied odds to justify a "bad" call. The problem we face is that when we make a hand, we still can't put lots of money in the pot, because if villain is happy to stack a diamond, he has a better one than we do.

    Implied odds are what we can win on future streets when we make a hand. Here our implied odds are very low, because when there's four diamonds and villain doesn't have a diamond, he's not betting/calling anywhere near as much as we need to justify the chase.

    Reverse implied odds are what we can lose on future streets when we make a hand. Here they are high, because villain has no worse flushes but he can have QQd/KKd, which is more likely than usual simply because his range is so narrow.

    When implied odds are low and reverse implied odds high, it's really not a good spot to chase. So yeah, folding QQd too.

    edit - if we have QQd, then obviously villain can't have the Qd, so he has only half the flushes in his range than if we have JJd. This reduces our reverse implied odds, however it doesn't increase our implied odds because villain still doesn't have any worse flushes except where he's overplaying JJ pre flop (which is possible). And even then, even if he always 3bets JJ here, he's now equally as likely to have JJd and KKd, so our implied odds equal the reverse implied odds. This would mean we're making a decision based on pure pot odds, which we don't have.

    Implied odds and reverse implied odds are of critical importance when chasing draws at a "bad" price. The IO must outweigh the RIO, and by enough to make up the shortfall in the pot odds we have.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 08-03-2017 at 05:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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