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KK faces flop donk on Axx in 4bet pot

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  1. #1

    Default KK faces flop donk on Axx in 4bet pot

    Villain is a total unknown.

    My instinct is to call the flop donk, then fold to a turn lead. Agree?

    Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    BTN: $17.22 (172.2 bb)
    SB: $21.26 (212.6 bb)
    BB: $27.09 (270.9 bb)
    UTG: $25.28 (252.8 bb)
    Hero (MP): $10.25 (102.5 bb)
    CO: $89.33 (893.3 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is MP with K K
    UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, SB raises to $1, BB folds, Hero raises to $2.20, SB calls $1.20

    Flop: ($4.50) 2 J A (2 players)
    SB bets $2.10
  2. #2
    Probably not Aces full - think he'd have 5bet pre. So what's left that we beat? QQ is about it. The wider his 3 bet / call 4 bet range gets, the more it has Ax (not to mention JJ) in it.

    I'd like to hear what others think. The AJx is just a sick flop. Do we think this guy can play this way w/ pp's TT or worse? Or w/ sc's? If not, we're way behind his entire range. Can we get him to fold a better hand? Not with call/fold.
  3. #3
    Yeah, the donk just seems really wierd though, he can't really expect this to be a flop I won't bet so why donk? And why so small? It makes no sense.

    Since all of my 4bet bluffs are Ax KK is the absolute bottom of my flopping range here, so even though he does make the flop really small, it's not exploitable if I just fold the flop.
  4. #4
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    why mot 4bet to 2.5-2.7? if he's calling 2.2 he's calling a little more also.
    i'd fold flop, my guess is that his 4bet flatting range has AJs, AQ,AK,JJ, QQ so we are crushed. of course he could be a bad player and we could be ahead, but w/o notes i'd prefer folding.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  5. #5
    I like the call flop, fold to a bet on the turn. Is it not possible for villain to be bet folding here enough. Given his an unknown, there may be no worse hands he plays like this, but if he's a fish, he could be doing this with lower PPs, or random flush draws.
  6. #6
    kickass's Avatar
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    Im exploitable fold. I think we has tonnes of Ax in our range that we obv not folding. I dont see any need to burn 21bb calling here to fold later when its so unlikely we ever get to showdown and are good.
    pokering again
  7. #7
    Yeah really not a good flop. I would like to think I would just fold this on the flop but in reality I prob call flop and fold turn if he bets again.
    Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
  8. #8
    Tom1559's Avatar
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    I am not sure about the donk reference. Yoiu have said that the villian is virtually unknown so how did you draw the conclusion he is a donk.

    The flop is not good for you and I would say it is either a fold or a raise. You are behind but he does not know that and if you raise he either has to push or fold.
    Scottish Cowboy
  9. #9
    Tom, "donk" is a term that not only describes bad players; in this case it's referring to the flop lead. Hero was the last preflop aggressor, and yet villain has taken the initiative to bet out on the flop. That move was nicknamed "to donk" into somebody, probably because donks used it more frequently than solid players.
  10. #10
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1559 View Post
    You are behind but he does not know that and if you raise he either has to push or fold.
    i am not is a good ideea to raise... maybe, maybe we can make him fold AQ, never AK, AA,JJ, AJ... -EV in my opinion...

    the only shot i would take would be just call flop and just hope i will not face another bet to SD
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  11. #11
    This is always AK and sometimes AQs ,what are we talking about? Easy fold
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1559 View Post
    The flop is not good for you and I would say it is either a fold or a raise. You are behind but he does not know that and if you raise he either has to push or fold.
    Your logic here is awful Tom. He's flatted a 4 bet and then donked. This is a really bad hand to turn into a bluff, given the strength he has shown and the fact that if he called we have only 2 outs to improve
    Last edited by Pascal; 12-09-2013 at 02:22 PM.
  13. #13
    I think he was AK likely, but the problem is that if he has got AK or even Ax, Why donkbet to make worse hands fold? There are some players that are not logical in their bets and may do this kind of things, but without information it is a clear fold
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    Why donkbet to make worse hands fold? There are some players that are not logical in their bets and may do this kind of things
    I agree with this. This is one of the reasons donking is money in certain spots - it confuses people and turns them into a station (this happens to me sometimes). I agree that the flop is a fold, especially in light of looking at my flop range and seeing that I can just fold the flop with KK here without being exploitable even though he does bet quite small.
  15. #15
    bikes's Avatar
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    god who leads this pot in a 4b pot what a frustrating ass to play against. p fold and be okay with it
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bikes View Post
    god who leads this pot in a 4b pot what a frustrating ass to play against. p fold and be okay with it
    I think it's a good bet on his part. It really gives you very little info on his hand. If he happens to have QQ he can easily fold to any raise. Otherwise, he can smooth call or pump up a raise with JJ or AJ or AK.

    The main thing you need to think about is what does he USUALLY bet on flops in pre raised pots? I watch people's flop bets religiously. Most of the time a 3/4 or full pot means they don't want a call. 1/2 or less means they hit and are trying to get the pot higher for a turn bet. But it depends on the player. Any info?

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