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I stacked my poker coach/mentor tonight on Ignition

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  1. #1

    Default I stacked my poker coach/mentor tonight on Ignition

    My poker coach runs a poker chat group on skype. I take part in it everyday.

    He does have a kind of controlling personality when it comes to poker, it's his way or the highway. He views me as probably the worst player in the group because I don't actively do my homework as often as his other students in the group, but he's basically the professor, and encourages me to take part in more homework in the groups.

    So here's my history of playing with him on bovada. I first met him in October of 2014, back when I wanted to move up in stakes really fast, I was taking shots at 100nl even though my skill level was nowhere near what it took to beat 100nl, and he was still playing 100nl, but still managing to move up. He had demonstrated on his twitch stream that his skill level far exceeds that of the average 100nl player, and can win that stake level with ease.

    Well we get the bright idea to play on the same table, and he runs one of his epic bluffs against me while I hold top two pair. Me having absolutely no hand reading skills at the time, I'm like "WTF do you have that you're shoving on?" into the mic and he remains silent. I said into the mic "IF I help put your kids through college, so be it..." I begrudgingly call (Kings and Queens was my holding, dry board IIRC), and I win his stack. It was kind of funny I over heard him on the mic go "ohhhh!" when I hit the call button because he had trash. Then he later told me that even though I won, I played the hand really bad.

    We decided we don't like playing each other at the same table since we're probably throwing each other off, and his livelihood and family depends on him playing top notch poker.

    So then a few months ago after a year and a half hiatus from saying we'll never play at the same tables we pull up a 50nl on bovada, 6-max as he's temporarily moved down to a stake level I'm comfortable with playing. He's running bluffs, he's running everyone at the table over, I'm to his immediate right so he has position on me, and he's developing quite a stack while I play a somewhat rockish 20/17. He's table captain. I get delt AKo, I bet, he calls, and flop comes AA10. I lead flop, he calls, I lead turn he calls and he says into the mic "What, do you have an ace?" I remain stone cold silent. River looks like a brick, I check river, and he makes this huge bet designed to look like a value bet. I call, he shows a whiffed gutshot/flush draw, and he gets really mad at me, tells me I play "like a jackass" and that I should have bet river (hence giving him a prime opportunity to fold a hand he wanted to turn into a bluff if you asked me), it's kind of funny because he's a far better more dedicated poker player than me, and this time again, I Just happen to pick off a huge bluff from him. THen he immediately leaves the table because "a nit is on my right" I.E. me lol.

    Fast forward to tonight. We're in the poker chat group, and there's this youngish/middle aged Asian woman, playing poker on twitch, and she plays terrible. I commented that her plays were so bad, it was like if you sat a Chimpanzee down and had it play poker on your behalf. Bear in mind, supposedly she had lost $1,000 online in a matter of two days. Just as a small example of her bad play, she OL J2s from UTG and I commented in the chat "For the rest of your poker career at a full ring 9 player table, never OL J2s from UTG again" and she agreed.

    So then I decide in front of the student group who's watching her stream and she doesn't know this but we all think she's one of the worst poker players we've ever seen, to sit down at her table one spot to the left of her, because I recognized she's a really shitty player, and it would make things more interesting for the student group. My poker coach/friend he didn't like that I was going to pick on her and secretly, sits down at the same table as me, one spot to my left. And what I didn't know is anytime I raised, he was going to 3bet me in position, because I hate it when I have a wide 3bettor with position on me. I got about 200bb, he's got 150bb.

    He's 3bet 3x at this point and he is so far proving to be the most prolific 3bettor at the table, particularly whenever I enter the pot.

    5 handed full ring game

    Hero is dealt 66 in the CO 202bb stack

    Villain is on BTN 152.5bb stack
    VPIP 42
    PFR 22
    AGG 22.0
    3BET 30.0

    MP1 (Girl running a twitch stream at that moment) folds
    Hero Opens for 3bb
    BTN (Villain) now 3bets to 10.5bb, making this either his 3rd or 4th 3bet in a matter of 24 hands, all against me
    SB Folds
    BB Folds

    Hero

    7.5bb to call and I'm getting over 20:1 implied odds

    Hero calls

    Pot is 22.5bb

    Flop comes 962 rainbow

    Now that I've smashed the board, I'm thinking what's the best way to play this guy who raises and bets a lot. If I donk lead the flop, it'll indicate strength which will give him an opportunity to fold if he's playing trash. Check-Calling is much more deceptive and looks weaker, Check raising IMO looks too strong and he'll fold everytime if he's got weak holdings. So give him some rope to hang himself with.

    Hero checks to 3bettor in position.

    Villain on BTN Cbets to 13.5bb

    Hero calls

    Pot is 49bb

    Turn is Ks

    Hero thinks a bit and then donk leads for 25.5bb. I'm thinking Donk lead because I beat most every hand out there except unlikely KK and 99. Check-Raising the turn looks too strong IMO, he might come over the top with a bluff raise if I donk lead on the smallish side (half pot) you know, he might also call, and I just don't feel the check-call is going to give me max value. If I check-call turn I think he's going to put me on a strong holding going into river, now that I've called down 2 streets. Except for flopped quads and full houses, I'll be honest, I don't really like to slowplay much, even 2nd set on the flop, 3rd set on the turn, even on rainbow boards. Perhaps it's a leak of mine that I don't slowplay enough? Seems when I slowplay I often get burnt specifically because I did it.

    Villain thinks for a bit then comes over the top for a 128.5bb turn shove

    Hero snap calls

    Pot is 302.5bb after rake

    River is 4s

    You know what he had? 83o lol

    Then I mention the big hand where I won over 300bb ($151 roughly) in the chat to other guys who hadn't seen it yet because the girl was running a delay on her stream and my poker coach/mentor then says "That was me you stacked, I was going to 3bet you with any two cards" and I said "No that wasn't you, because you don't 3bet with 83o" and then he reconfirmed it was him.

    Then we got into a private conversation, and he got really mad at me for donk leading the turn. He told me he was 3-betting any two cards in position against me because he knows beforehand how much I hate being 3bet over and over and over by a guy who has position on me. He was like "Why would you donk lead into the 3bettor (we're talking about the turn play specifically)! How is donk betting a good strategy? You know he's going to fold all his trash when you do that! (Except for him who stacked off on 83o) and I told him the same reasoning as I mentioned in this thread on what I was thinking on the turn. He told me my play was terrible. Then he said "I only went all in because it was you, because I think you're capable of doing that shit with so many retarded hands".

    It's just kind of funny I picked off another massive bluff again by him.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 10-02-2016 at 09:12 AM.
  2. #2
    I see your main focus remains to please your asshole of a coach.

    He's full of himself. He think he's can teach you a lesson by 3betting any two cards, then complains that YOU played the hand badly when he gets stacked by a set. If he really wanted to teach you a lesson, he'd have played his A-game against you, in position, and spent the next 2-3 hours slowly dismantling your stack and confidence. But instead he gets cocky, trying to outplay someone he himself calls a "nit" with the nut fucking low.

    I hope you're not paying him to be your coach.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I see your main focus remains to please your asshole of a coach.

    He's full of himself. He think he's can teach you a lesson by 3betting any two cards, then complains that YOU played the hand badly when he gets stacked by a set. If he really wanted to teach you a lesson, he'd have played his A-game against you, in position, and spent the next 2-3 hours slowly dismantling your stack and confidence. But instead he gets cocky, trying to outplay someone he himself calls a "nit" with the nut fucking low.

    I hope you're not paying him to be your coach.

    I just think it's fucking hilarious that an amateur like me has stacked him again lol. And every hand it's been the same thing he runs a massive bluff while I'm at the top of my range.

    You know he does have some good personal qualities even if I haven't showed you any of them. And he is rare in the sense that he is one of the only people I've ever met who is legitimately a professional gambler and derives 100% of their entire income off of poker and in fact does well from what I've seen. He's not driving a Ferrari and lives in a mansion, but I do think he derives enough of an income off of it, that he's not struggling for money.

    While I've vented on this forum about him before because sometimes I get so emotionally wound up I have to find SOME place to vent, and it's probably a huge personal failing on my part, as opposed to his part, to vent about him on ANY forum, let alone this quality forum, he does have some positive personal qualities about him, I mean the man eats, breathes, drinks, and sleeps poker, all day, everyday pretty much (With one caveat, he still leaves plenty of time to spend with his wife, and kids, and family, when he's not playing or studying poker). He doesn't have a HUGE twitch following like a lot of the high stakes players do, but I'd say he has one of the most underrated streams on twitch on the few occasions he does stream, but he doesn't stream very often.

    You can derive a pretty nice income off of 200nl despite not playing high stakes. He's shown me his graphs, his HEM2 stats, and the guy definitely pulls in some income off of poker and knows a thing or two about professional gambling.

    I think it's a matter of time before he starts moving back up to 400nl, 600nl, 1000nl and 2000nl. He's played at all those stake levels for that matter, but at the moment he feels very comfortable at 200nl.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 10-02-2016 at 09:26 AM.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    It strikes me that the fault of your teacher in these examples is that he tells himself that you are "a bad player" and he lets that obscure that you may have some bad habits, but you have some good habits, too.

    I think you'll (we'll) be better served if you (we) try to see people as the nuanced beings they are. Poker is a nuanced game and most people understand at least one part of it fairly well.

    I.e. you say the twitch streamer was terrible at poker. It's easy to stroke your (my) own ego by feeling superior over someone else, but it's not really a fair way to treat them. If fact, by being unfair in our evaluation of them, we blind ourselves to the fact that they aren't fully 100% terrible. That's a disservice to ourselves by allowing that ignorance to go unaddressed.

    A chimpanzee can recognize if the hole cards are paired and shove a pile of chips forward if they are, but that's the best you can teach a chimp. It's literally been done. (See my pic)

    So... as a tool to work past this all-too-typical experience:
    What were her strengths?
    What do those strengths (taken with her weaknesses) say about her ambition at the table?
    How do you exploit that ambition?

    Get in the habit to try to move from the cards to the people when you are thinking about strategies. You will be much better at spotting opportunities to increase your EV against a Villain when you accept that he's got goals and strategies, too. Actually, I think you're pretty good at this already, in the way you describe your decisions mid-hand. Just try to recognize it as a trigger when you hear yourself describe a player as "terrible." Remember that they made a terrible play, and may will do so again, but not all their plays will be terrible.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 10-02-2016 at 10:02 AM.
  5. #5
    You played it perfectly given the dynamic (imo). He played it like a tard that wants to win every hand. If you're 3betting 83o then you're 3betting 100% and will be ia world of pain with such a range disadvantage against all but the biggest droolers.
  6. #6
    I really don't think we should be leading this turn unless we have a STRONG read that he's likely to spaz jam over a donk (like he did in this case).

    If he's this ridiculously wide pre and the turn runs out a nut bluffing card for him then we really have to c/c turn again imo.

    Also you state that you lead turn here cause you would lead turn here with all your hands except KKK/999, but again this makes no sense. This card is WAY better for his range than for our range, so we REALLY shouldn't ever be donking here and mostly always either c/c or c/f.

    Like what hands are you leading on the turn here? A9? TT? Then he jams and now what? Are you bet/calling or bet/folding those hands?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  7. #7
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Why do you flat pre If you think he is 3b very wide? If right, then setmine is not profitabile. You should 4b.
    You said "give him rope" , so why donk lead K turn? Like griffey said, K turn hits his range , so when we check turn he could value bet his K hands or try to represent that K vs our flop floating pairs.
    Except the fact that he 3b you 3 or 4 times in 24 hands, you have no other reads , so i tend to agree w/ griffey and your coach, giving the info you had and your hand before the SD, your play was bad.
    Why you flat the 3 b OOP? Vs a wide 3b is not profitabile like is not profitabile vs a good player , se need info that villain is spazzing for stack or that he stacks of w/ overpairs or TPTK and you donț have these reads.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  8. #8
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    When You bet turn You deny him the chance to 2barrel bluff/ make him be cautious w/AK / make him fold and You lose probably a river bet and to see a SD and seeing his hand so that You assign him a 3b range in the future. If he is 3betting TT+/ AK vs MP, he is not wide, and You should not setmine OOP and that could explain the 3/4 3 bets in the last 24hands.
    Except the fact that he is your coach and wad trying to make a point ( You had no ideea) vs 90% of players , turn donking bere is losing money and valuable info.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  9. #9
    Meh, I like the turn lead with sets and AA with this dynamic. I get why it's bad, but I encounter a lot of dick waving regs that want to teach other regs a lesson who will over jam. Plus there's plenty of pot controlling types that will go bet check bet. I prob prefer a flop donk though with sets and this dynamic as most regs take the bait. Clearly one for me to go away and think about.
  10. #10
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    ak hand fake block river or check-shove on his arse and make him cry.
    moving down in stakes plus leaving the table cos a nit to his right = he's not a good/winning player. destroy him. and sure as hell don't pay him for coachingl
  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I see your main focus remains to please your asshole of a coach.
    agree with ong here. At the table your main focus should be to maximise profits, and utilise info. Given that you have reads on the coach, that should involve fucking him over.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    IHe's full of himself. He think he's can teach you a lesson by 3betting any two cards,
    even worse, he rates himself such a bad coach that he thinks you can't respond to someone 3betting atc...
    this guy deserves to go broke
    anyone who pays him for coaching deserves the same.
  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS1985 View Post
    he is rare in the sense that he is one of the only people I've ever met who is legitimately a professional gambler and derives 100% of their entire income off of poker and in fact does well from what I've seen. He's not driving a Ferrari and lives in a mansion, but I do think he derives enough of an income off of it, that he's not struggling for money..
    from someone who lived off online poker income for over five years, my bet is that he's relying on coaching $$ from suckers like you, that it's been years since he's been able to beat the games without extra $ coming in, and that he's busto and isn't doing well.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    from someone who lived off online poker income for over five years, my bet is that he's relying on coaching $$ from suckers like you, that it's been years since he's been able to beat the games without extra $ coming in, and that he's busto and isn't doing well.
    I've seen his graphs, I've seen his charts, I've seen his trends, and I've seen him win the biggest pots in poker in my life while sweating someone on skype. He is the only guy I've ever met who I can say is a full blown professional at poker.

    He makes well into the $5 figures a year in poker.

    He's the only person I've ever met, who will gladly do 40 hours a week in poker homework, and only play for 20 hours that same week.

    edit: And I'll say one more thing about him. He doesn't stream very often, but he has one of the most underrated poker streams on twitch.

    The hand I described in this thread was him butchering a hand. He rarely butchers hands though. For sure very less often than I butcher hands.

    One reason he butchered this hand, is because $50nl is well below what he usually plays at so I don't think he was taking the stake level as seriously, or me as a poker player.
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 11-14-2016 at 11:08 AM.

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