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Help with this hand plz, was confused on how to play it

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  1. #1

    Default Help with this hand plz, was confused on how to play it

    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    PokerStars
    8 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    Stacks:
    UTG ($1.84) 92bb
    UTG+1 ($1.87) 94bb
    MP1 ($1.17) 59bb
    MP2 ($2.80) 140bb
    CO ($2.23) 112bb
    BTN ($1.84) 92bb
    SB ($4.62) 231bb
    BB Hero ($0.75) 38bb

    Pre-Flop: (0.03, 8 players) Hero is BB
    UTG raises to $0.04, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02
    Flop: ($0.21, 5 players)

    Hero checks, UTG bets $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.10, BTN raises to $0.35, [color=#cc0000][b]Hero ...???


    I was confused on what to do my stack was not too deep and I had the NFD, I am confused about EV shove here, on one hand I wanted to just call and see a turn but if that turn wasn't a diamond the pot would be $1.01 if no one else called the .35 and if it did pot would be larger, but I would only have .38 behind. basically pot committed on the turn ? what would be the best play here to call the .35 ? shove over top? if we shove how do I calculate the EV are we just taking BU's Raising range into account and figuring out what he will fold and what he will call with ? thanks in advance . ( I know I should buy in for full stack but I want to learn how to play all stack sizes because I don't have alot of money to keep topping up right now and I want to get used to playing with different sizes.
  2. #2
    Fold pre - why would you want to call this and go 5way out of position to the flop with Axs with little chance of a straight . you're going to hate life if you flop an Ace, anyone without won't be paying you off unless they have Ax beat limiting your upside. you got lucky and flopped some equity . A8s isn't strong enough to 3bet short stacked , you could make an argument for 3bet shoving against a single late position raiser short stacked , but you don't have that situation . You have a table of callers so someone will likely call with a better Ax
    or medium pair

    Flop - you got lucky - you don't have the stack to call , just shove and hope to thin the field, your 8 is blocking some straight flushes and you've probably got around 40% which i think will make it a profitable shove. Btn probably has a set here.

    Going to be brutal her but in a constructive way.

    Where are your reads ?

    Looking at this table

    UTG - not fully stacked - min raising UTG, not fullly stacked - fish
    UTG+1 - not fully stacked - fish
    MP1 - just over half a stack calling an early position raise , folding to a cbet - fish
    MP2 - fully stacked , calling min raise and a call pre - probably low-mid pairs, suited connectors, broadways - calls cbet - no set,mid pairs QJ,KQ, XdXd
    BTN - not fully stacked (fishy) - looking toi see a flop multiway broadways ,low-mid pairs connectors Arag - raise UTG cbet 90% set 10 flush draw since we block a lot of flush draws and the nut flush draws - probably still a fish.
    BB- short stacked , calling pre multiway out of position - huge fish

    That is a read developed on most guys at the table from 1 hand , You will have played multiple hands against these guys , you should have been making watching them and making notes on them , learn how lags play , fish play tags play etc .

    When you post hands you should be giving your reads on opponents , what ranges you think they have and if we think you are wrong we'll tell you .

    You are posting like a fish , looking at your hand and the flop just like every other fish at the table .If you are going to become profitable at poker you need to be look at the table and adjusting the range of hands you'll play Before the cards are dealt, adjusting again after you see the action before you and the number of player still to act and their probably ranges once the cards are dealt and again at the flop turn etc.

    I know I should buy in for full stack but I want to learn how to play all stack sizes because I don't have alot of money to keep topping up right now and I want to get used to playing with different sizes.


    This is again talking like a fish , "i want to limit the amount i lose " rather than "I want to maximise the amount i win".
    You are missing the fact that if you keep calling multiway OOP you will bleed chips and still have to top up.You won't learn to play post flop as a lot of the time the decision will be all in or fold like this case as you don't have the stack depth to be able to call profitably .
  3. #3
    I had notes on some of the players and I was watching them, just because they don’t have full stacks we can’t assume they are fish, I don’t play full stacks all the time and I study poker like 5 hrs a day A8s is completely fine here nobody is folding this hand in this spot without reads that there are extremely tight players coming in .the question about the post had to do with the technical side of shoving and calculating if it’s EV or calling with pot odds or just folding .i appreciate the fact that you commented but I don’t like the way you are talking, I know how player types play When I posted this hand it was for Mojo and Ong I don’t even know you or care much about your opinion if your going to be rude. You Tryed blasting my preflop play last hand I posted too which was also perfectly playable
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-25-2020 at 10:23 AM.
  4. #4
    I don’t care if you think I am a fish lol I am a member on pokercoaching.com and I study relentlessly , I’ll take John Littles advice over yours but I do value Mojo and Ongs opinion and others on this forum, I go extremely in depth in hands quite often, I don’t do so every single hand and I don’t think I have to, or if I choose to it doesn’t have to be right away. Also use range analyzer every day over at pokercoaching.com which teaches me how to be balanced and play my entire range of hands from pre flop to river , I own flopzilla where I go through percentages villains holdings and what part of their range I can fold out with specific bet sizings + tons of other stuff, not that I need to even explain myself because as far I am concerened your opinion is not a valued one of mine if your going to come across as a jerk
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-25-2020 at 10:23 AM.
  5. #5
    With a 38bb stack this is a fold pre.

    With a 100bb stack this is a ridiculously easy call pre.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    The problem we have with this stack is when we flop an ace, we're pot committed before we know we're in trouble, and when we flop a flush draw we can't make marginal calls relying on implied odds, because we don't have any implied odds.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    By the way donkeybets, keith is better than me and mojo. I'm glad you value our comments, but don't be so quick to dismiss keith's opinion just because he's blunt and thinks you're a fish. Try and understand where he's coming from, you'll get more from him that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    As for what to do on the flop, just fold. We have no fold equity, we need to win more than 3x the bet size to break even, and our stack isn't big enough to win that much.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    By the way donkeybets, keith is better than me and mojo. I'm glad you value our comments, but don't be so quick to dismiss keith's opinion just because he's blunt and thinks you're a fish. Try and understand where he's coming from, you'll get more from him that way.

    That’s nice, doesn’t mean I have to to accept his opinions, he’s not being blunt he’s being jerk. I’ve heard of Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey what’s Keith’s full name maybe I’ve seen him on tv. I think you guys play too tight if your folding A8s here I have a book by Jonathan Little his book says can call here with my 38bb, I think you guys are the minority if you think folding pre is an option there 19c in the pot I have to call 2c with A8dd to see a flop lol.
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-25-2020 at 11:23 AM.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The problem we have with this stack is when we flop an ace, we're pot committed before we know we're in trouble, and when we flop a flush draw we can't make marginal calls relying on implied odds, because we don't have any implied odds.

    Pot committed what does that actually mean ? For some it’s just an excuse to call off the rest of their stack ,you can make an argument to fold a hand when there is 100$dollars in a pot on a river where you have to either call your last two dollars or fold and if you know you are beat you can literally fold and save your 2 bucks . I think I know what your trying to say but we arnt pot committed by calling 1bb. If I flopped an ace it wasn’t a green light to put the rest of my stack in the middle
  11. #11
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I feel where you're coming from DB, but I agree with Keith's analysis, too.

    Keith is a better poker player than me and ong combined, and if you can get past the things that don't matter, like his grumpiness, then you'll learn much faster than ong or I could offer.

    Also, you'll just have to trust me - this is like shiny unicorn Keith on laughing gas compared to the hay days of FTR.
    He used to be downright vicious. Now he's more abrasively blunt.
    I mean... I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just hoping you can make an informed decision.

    ***
    (The following is just me pretending I know something about humans, which is dubious at best. I have not had any personal conversations with Keith that I am referring to and this is purely speculation.)

    Kieth is grumpy, yes, but his scathing criticism of our poker hands is probably nothing compared to living in that head of his full time.
    So grain of salt with it. It's definitely not about you.
    It's probably just his perfectionism and dedication to personal excellence manifests as a bit of an impatient father.

    ***
    Keith was a mod here before either ong or me, and has free reign to do as he sees appropriate on this forum.

    I'm stoked that both of you (DB and Keith) are active in the forum, and I believe it's to your benefit (DB) to look past his tone. I honestly think it's like shooting yourself in the foot to disregard his poker advice over his tone, but ... that's not my decision to make. It's your line to draw.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  12. #12
    Honestly, if people like spoonitnow and jyms were still here, you'd realise keith isn't a jerk. We're tame compared to many of the old regs who have left.


    I'm sure Jonathon Little is better than keith. But I'm also sure Jonathon Little isn't playing badly post flop. The fact you're considering calling this flop bet is proof that you're not playing nearly accurately post flop enough to be able to play a short stack skillfully. You can't call a bet on the flop for half your stack with a draw. You're either shoving this or folding, always. This is the position you put yourself in by being short stacked, it's very hard to play hands like flush draws out of position..

    I personally think folding pre flop here is horrible, but my adjustment is not to call anyway, it's to increase my stack size to make these hands playable.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    The reason I think this is a fold pre flop is because we can't win massive pots. We can easily lose our stack with top pair, and the flushes we make are not enough compensation for the times we are dominated. When we're full stacked, it's not so easy to lose your stack with a bad top pair, but you do increase the potential size of the pots you win when your flush comes good.

    We do have great pot odds, but this is about implied odds vs reverse implied odds.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Honestly, if people like spoonitnow and jyms were still here, you'd realise keith isn't a jerk. We're tame compared to many of the old regs who have left.


    I'm sure Jonathon Little is better than keith. But I'm also sure Jonathon Little isn't playing badly post flop. The fact you're considering calling this flop bet is proof that you're not playing nearly accurately post flop enough to be able to play a short stack skillfully. You can't call a bet on the flop for half your stack with a draw. You're either shoving this or folding, always. This is the position you put yourself in by being short stacked, it's very hard to play hands like flush draws out of position..

    I personally think folding pre flop here is horrible, but my adjustment is not to call anyway, it's to increase my stack size to make these hands playable.
    Not sure what you mean, where did you see me say I was considering calling? I basically said I would have liked to but if the turn wasn't a diamond I would be screwed and asked what you guys thought about the best decision. I didn't call I'll tell you that. And besides the fact I know I am not playing 100% optimally or I wouldn't be on forums asking for advice or in Micros but to act as if calling pre-flop is a huge mistake is just crazy.
  15. #15
    I took this comment as considering the call...

    ...on one hand I wanted to just call and see a turn
    But ok I took that out of context.

    Calling pre flop isn't a huge mistake. Being short stacked is a huge mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    This Keith guy is just blowing hot air, he is dellisional and opening his mouth before he knows the facts ;

    "You are posting like a fish , looking at your hand and the flop just like every other fish at the table .If you are going to become profitable at poker you need to be look at the table and adjusting the range of hands you'll play Before the cards are dealt, adjusting again after you see the action before you and the number of player still to act and their probably ranges once the cards are dealt and again at the flop turn etc."

    Calling me a fish and what not he knows nothing at all about me ! Here are a few links to some of my analysis and thoughts in hands in the past few days tell me if a fish or someone who doesn't know basic stuff about player types or who doesn't know how to think ahead would post this , my screen name is casey55.

    https://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/...59#post3108559

    https://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/...28#post3109228

    https://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/...21#post3109121

    https://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/...39#post3108839
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-25-2020 at 11:56 AM.
  17. #17
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Your repeated arguments to play on a short stack are, indeed, indicative of you having a fishy leak in your game.

    We've explained multiple times why sitting on a short stack doesn't limit your losses, it limits your wins. Still you persist to say fishy stuff like, "I don't have alot of money to keep topping up right now and I want to get used to playing with different sizes."

    If you can't afford to lose 30 buy-ins, then you can't afford to play. Even a winning player can hit some brutal downswings.
    If you're choosing to play when you can't afford it, then fine, but you really shouldn't then get uppety when someone says you're not playing like a person trying to be a pro.
    Of course you're not, that's not your goal. You're just having a bit of fun and burning a bit of your disposable income on a hobby. That's legit.

    However, if your goal is to play like a pro and to move up in stakes out of the micros, then we're giving you advice with a full explanation of the reasons behind the advice, and you're coming back at us with, "This guy who wrote a book says no." OK. What were his reasons? Let's talk about whether those apply and if they do, let's talk about whether I am wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I don't want to give bad advice. If you're looking for someone to just tell you what to do without reasons, then 2+2 is a better poker forum for that, IMO.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Your repeated arguments to play on a short stack are, indeed, indicative of you having a fishy leak in your game.

    We've explained multiple times why sitting on a short stack doesn't limit your losses, it limits your wins. Still you persist to say fishy stuff like, "I don't have alot of money to keep topping up right now and I want to get used to playing with different sizes."

    If you can't afford to lose 30 buy-ins, then you can't afford to play. Even a winning player can hit some brutal downswings.
    If you're choosing to play when you can't afford it, then fine, but you really shouldn't then get uppety when someone says you're not playing like a person trying to be a pro.
    Of course you're not, that's not your goal. You're just having a bit of fun and burning a bit of your disposable income on a hobby. That's legit.

    However, if your goal is to play like a pro and to move up in stakes out of the micros, then we're giving you advice with a full explanation of the reasons behind the advice, and you're coming back at us with, "This guy who wrote a book says no." OK. What were his reasons? Let's talk about whether those apply and if they do, let's talk about whether I am wrong. I don't like to be wrong. I don't want to give bad advice. If you're looking for someone to just tell you what to do without reasons, then 2+2 is a better poker forum for that, IMO.
    Thats your opinion and your outlook on things, If I want to play with whatever money I have I will do so, I can learn and play without topping up to max, I can get better at the game without a full buy in while playing still. and yes I would take a pro poker players hand charts and guides over a random guy whos getting stupid with me for no reason. We don't even need a discussion about the hand selection its not a super in depth problem its 2c call with a 20c pot already out there, it would be borderline silly not to call but if you guys wouldn't be comfortable playing the hand and would rather fold it that is your preference and thats fine but its not cool to make is sound silly for calling which is what keith tried to do
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-25-2020 at 12:03 PM.
  19. #19
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    "You are posting like a fish"

    I mean.. you didn't give any ranges, or any reads at all in the hand you posted in this thread, which is indeed, "posting" like a fish.
    Do you agree?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    "You are posting like a fish"

    I mean.. you didn't give any ranges, or any reads at all in the hand you posted in this thread, which is indeed, "posting" like a fish.
    Do you agree?
    No , I was tired and felt like maybe I could wait til later in the day to do so....? or maybe you could give a general analysis like other forums...? This is the only forum where I post things and get flamed for no reason, I came and showed a very reasonable spot and got nothing but backlash
  21. #21
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Is that the only poker book you've got? Poker books have a tendency to contradict each other, in my experience.
    It's not enough to just take blind advice. You need to know what assumptions are behind the advice and if those assumptions apply to you.


    ***
    I've noticed that when someone criticizes your poker play, you turn and criticize their person.
    Not very high equity on your end of that, IMO.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  22. #22
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Well... now it's later.

    What are your reads and ranges for the villains in this hand?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Is that the only poker book you've got? Poker books have a tendency to contradict each other, in my experience.
    It's not enough to just take blind advice. You need to know what assumptions are behind the advice and if those assumptions apply to you.


    ***
    I've noticed that when someone criticizes your poker play, you turn and criticize their person.
    Not very high equity on your end of that, IMO.

    he didn't criticize just my play he was calling me a fish and being disrespecful sorry if you guys are used people who just take it but I dont, I'm done with these forums I've got more constructive things to do and Pokercoaching.com has tons of hand charts and live webinars with actual professionals that I watch and get involved with. I didn't do anything wrong here, Best wishes guys, enjoy your day/
  24. #24
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Best of luck!
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  25. #25
    The problem you have is that you don't know what you don't know i.e asking "Pot committed what does that actually mean"

    We are giving you advice how to beat 2nl and you keep posting like a fish.

    You can't call multiway with 39bb with Axs out of position as you dont have the stack size to realize your equity , the pot will rapidly bloat and you will find yourself pot committed , either having to call off your stack or fold what you've put in the pot.
    Short stacking takes away post flop play because you are facing all in or fold decison post flop, you have no fold equity ever.(this is telling you what pot commited means in practice, by making this bet you are committing the whole of your stack on subsequent betting rounds if called)becuase you've already committed a high % of your starting stack to the hand.

    For someone who's delusional , i've never deposited personal funds into poker . I built an initial bankroll from freerolls and then ground it up and have been withdrawing ever since for the last 11 years .I expect that Mojo and Ong are similar. Run multiple challenges where i've run sub 5$ balances up without busting. That started out1/2 stacking and adding tables and then increasing the buyins as soon as possible.


    the question about the post had to do with the technical side of shoving and calculating if it’s EV or calling with pot odds or just folding


    You are completely missing the point . You can't estimate your equity without putting the villains on a range and the villains ranges will depend on your reads of them . If Btn is a fish , playing any two cards and you've seen him bluff raising flops in the past then you have a lot more equity than if he's a tight player and hes always had it when youve seem him raise cbets on the flop.

    For poker , you have to be able to think about the situation and reason out what you should do . Given any situation you may play it differently against one person compared with another person based on a whole range of factors, be player type , people still to act , stack sizes , likely equity etc etc.

    The more information you give the better advice you will receive and by the arguments used you will start to think like a profitable poker player. studying won't make you profitable if you study the wrong things , apply concepts where they shouldn't be applied etc etc. Those things you learn from experience . If you talk like a fish , post like a fish and play like a fish , you are a fish. You will only improve when you learn to accept that you are a fish and that you have areas to work on.

    10 years on and withdrawing continually i'm still a fish, i accept that there are people that know more than me and that there are limits where i will get crushed . I don't have the time to put the work in to no longer be a fish at those limits but if i did i'd still be a fish at higher limits.


    Pokercoaching.com has tons of hand charts and live webinars with actual professionals



    You need the quote where it is better to teach a guy to fish that to give him a fish to cook. hand charts are generalizations , you need to learn how your range should change depending on your opponents , stack sizes etc hand charts wont give you that .


  26. #26
    Thats your opinion and your outlook on things, If I want to play with whatever money I have I will do so, I can learn and play without topping up to max, I can get better at the game without a full buy in while playing still. and yes I would take a pro poker players hand charts and guides over a random guy whos getting stupid with me for no reason. We don't even need a discussion about the hand selection its not a super in depth problem its 2c call with a 20c pot already out there, it would be borderline silly not to call but if you guys wouldn't be comfortable playing the hand and would rather fold it that is your preference and thats fine but its not cool to make is sound silly for calling which is what keith tried to do
    This demonstrates a huge failing that many people have that makes them unprofitable .you are calling us /me out for highlighting the 2 cent call because its "duh obvious a call using pot odds". This is because you are misapplying concepts and ignoring your implied odds (chances of hitting a winning hand) and reverse implied odds chances of losing when you do hit your hand you are drawing to .

    The point is not the 2c ,its the money you lose when you call multiway out of position with a small stackthese losses will swamp what you will likely win making it -ev to be in the hand in the first place. Until you start realizing that money not lost is just as important as money won you will continue to bleed chips /money using the "its only 2c " argument. The smaller the stack you start the hand with the tighter your range should be and the nittier you should play.

  27. #27
    I don't like the idea of getting used to playing different stack sizes at cash games. I would recommend studying and improving at 100bb or 40bb only. Preferably 100bb to maximise value, as it's going to be near impossible to churn out a winrate at the micros with 8bb/100 rake and fuck all rakeback on Stars.

    I take Keith's point about people slow bleeding money with loose calls from the BB, but this is never a fold preflop at any stack size. If we only continue with flopped 2pr+ and flush draws on the flop, we easily have the odds we need. I recommend Flopzilla for looking at this type of thing.

    As played, jam seems like the only (marginally profitable) option with this stack size.
  28. #28
    As played, jam seems like the only (marginally profitable) option with this stack size.
    didnt i say that originally , but this is marginal when we flop well , hence bleeding chips with the loose calls OOP multiway for the majority of the time when we miss the flop
  29. #29
    If we only continue with flopped 2pr+ and flush draws on the flop, we easily have the odds we need.
    Sure, but this means not losing our stack with just top pair. That's the problem here. What happens when it's Axx? Do we just c/f vs any bet that commits us? We're making top pair here a lot more than 2pr+, this is where the money will be won or lost.

    I can't see jamming flop being a good move here. We'll need two calls, or three folds. Highly optimistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  30. #30
    I can't see jamming flop being a good move here. We'll need two calls, or three folds. Highly optimistic.
    Jamming flop when we hit the best of it is marginally +EV and the rest (majority) of the time we are spewing small ,medium or large amounts of chips making getting into this pot in the first place a -EV proposition overall . Hence just fold pre with this stack size and position and sequence of events up to the preflop decision.
    Pretty sure that there won't be a hand chart for this combination of events anywhere and you'll have timed out before you find it. Hence understanding the theory behind the decision making is far greater value in the long run than looking at hand charts.
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Sure, but this means not losing our stack with just top pair. That's the problem here. What happens when it's Axx? Do we just c/f vs any bet that commits us? We're making top pair here a lot more than 2pr+, this is where the money will be won or lost.

    I can't see jamming flop being a good move here. We'll need two calls, or three folds. Highly optimistic.
    With top pair facing a small bet and a call behind, we can call and look to fold unimproved on turns, depending on sizing (looking to improve to 2pr, trips, backdoor draws). Facing a bet and a raise behind with a combo like ace rag of hearts here, we can fold - we have better hands we can continue with when there are this many in the pot. That's the key point with flatting pre. If we're not spewy post, we can easily play this profitably.
  32. #32
    BenCB BB range for 40bb multiway preflop. Feel free to remove if it violates publishing licensing.

    He's assuming a 2.2x sizing and no rake, but not with this many in this pot. All those factors are probably close to washing out, but A8s is very high up in this flatting range in any case.

    BB Multiway.jpg

    Edit: can't seem to make this bigger, but:

    Green = call
    Yellow = bluff squeeze
    Red = squeeze call
    Blue = jam pre
    Last edited by The Bean Counter; 02-26-2020 at 05:47 AM.
  33. #33
    That's the key point with flatting pre. If we're not spewy post, we can easily play this profitably.
    I agree that if we play accurately post flop, we can make money with the call pre flop. But that's easier said than done when we have a 38bb stack. I'm not sure how easily I can get away from a losing top pair here. We can only really afford to make one call before we are pot committed.

    Like I said, I think it's horrible folding this pre. If we're not playing this hand, what's the point in playing at all? But the point of hands like this is to win big pots. We aren't giving ourselves that chance when we have this stack, and that impacts heavily on the profitability of this spot.

    It's like we're set mining without the implied odds.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #34
    .
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-26-2020 at 06:23 AM.
  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    Jamming flop when we hit the best of it is marginally +EV and the rest (majority) of the time we are spewing small ,medium or large amounts of chips making getting into this pot in the first place a -EV proposition overall . Hence just fold pre with this stack size and position and sequence of events up to the preflop decision.
    Pretty sure that there won't be a hand chart for this combination of events anywhere and you'll have timed out before you find it. Hence understanding the theory behind the decision making is far greater value in the long run than looking at hand charts.

    Literally no idea what your talking about, you seem to have some delusion your opinion is the holy grail and what you think trumps all , you are wrong.

    The probability of hitting your flush draw with two suited cards on the flop is 1/50/12 x 1/49/11 or approximately 1 chance in 18.5 tries multiplied by 100% plus 11/48 or a total percentage probability of 8.21% or about 1 in 12 attempts

    12:1 to flop our NFD. Pot odds = 9.5 :1 we need to make up 3bb later on which is fine, we would like to have more implied odds but we have 37bb our implied odds are decent enough there are many players in the pot. I didn't mention our small chance to flop trips or two pair which could make up for our call ( am I saying 2-pair or trips gives us the best hand or that we need to shove it all in when we flop them ? NO)

    Jamming flop may not be best that part is correct because we don’t know how players behind will react and we need would need 2 calls on our jam which is slightly optimistic however if we assume everyone at the table is a fish like you claim then it would be +EV all day right? no. when we play these types of hands and have the discipline to play correctly this hand is fine to come in this pot with. If we flop an Ace and Pre flop aggressor c-bets into 4 people we can fold our Ace pretty confidently , if we flop trips Or two pair we can play intelligently and react differently depending on which player types make which actions. We can get it all in and with the FD if we play by pot odds and pot equity. If I had reads villains behind me would call the .35 raise this could be argued that it's a call , it could be argued its a call anyways given range of utg and his half pot bet on the flop, he needs to call .25c I have just called increasing his pot odds and the Q is good for his range.

    Calling was not as bad as you may think, if we call the .35c raise we have .30c in our stack and pot will be $1.11, Pre-flop aggressor has range advantage the Q his range well and he has bet 1/2 pot into 4 people alreaady, He could also have PP he is more likely to call after I call. Not to mention everyone in hand is fish right bro? You see if your going to make these types of claims you can't minipulate your reasoning later down the line. Anyways,

    UTG Flop Range: QQ+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+
    16.5% Equity

    BU Range Raising Range: QQ,77,22,AQs,Q7s,Q2s,72s,Kd7d,Jd7d,9d7d,8d7d,Kd2d, Jd2d,Td2d,AQo,Q7o,Q2o,72o
    = 52% Equity

    A8dd = 31.3% Equity



    We call the .30c,

    .30c left, pot is 1.46 player behind called, turn comes comes a brick,

    checks to bb who raises it lets say .75,

    pot is 1.76 .30 to call

    5.8:1

    need to be good 1 in 6.8 times, = 100/6.8= 14.7% and we have 18% Equity, this is the worst case scenario, we could turn a flush, a pair to pickup more equity or a high-card can come on the board giving UTG more equity increasing the chances of both players staying in the pot and increasing our pot odds.

    But yet again, you claim BU is fish as-well so we are giving BU not just sets and 2 pairs which would increase our Equity right? see how you sound?

    I don't follow hand charts blindly again you sound like someone who likes to manipulate information to prove your egotistical theory's . I READ THE WHOLE BOOK , do you think a Poker professional is going to make a book about mastering small stakes and give you hand-charts with no guide on how to play your hands in different scenarios? He has 14 great selling Poker Books, I'm trying to give you credit for having a higher IQ than you are showing but your making it difficult. Instead of Originally responding with class and respect trying to help out someone less skilled than you while teaching what you seem to have a passion for in a manner that is enjoyable for both parties you decided to turn this thread into an aggressive back and forth attack. what does this say about your character? For somebody who is looking to be a poker coach to people I am not suprised you are asking around for people to coach, if you want to be a successful coach you have to be able to give advice in a way that is not hostile and arrogant. Learn from Jon Little
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-26-2020 at 06:46 AM.
  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    BenCB BB range for 40bb multiway preflop. Feel free to remove if it violates publishing licensing.

    He's assuming a 2.2x sizing and no rake, but not with this many in this pot. All those factors are probably close to washing out, but A8s is very high up in this flatting range in any case.

    BB Multiway.jpg

    Edit: can't seem to make this bigger, but:

    Green = call
    Yellow = bluff squeeze
    Red = squeeze call
    Blue = jam pre
    Thank you bean counter, happy somebody sees it. pretty sure the charts I am using are GTO that is probrably why it lines up with your diagram.
  37. #37
    you decided to turn this thread into an aggressive back and forth attack. what does this say about your character?
    I'm not trying to piss you off here, but ask yourself this same question. Your reaction to critisism is aggressive, like you feel personally offended. Nobody is attacking your character, just your poker skills. If you want to discuss poker on the internet, you need to be willing to accept critisism, even if you don't agree with what you read, and even if the person giving you critisism is plain wrong. People are giving their opinions. It's up to you to decide if their opinion is worth more than yours. This is the internet, there's no body language, it's really easy to assume someone is being a jerk when they are not. If keith was being a jerk, he'd just mod ban you for calling him a jerk. That's what jerks do... they react to arguments in disproportionate ways. He's still trying to explain his thoughts to you, it's clear to me he's not being a jerk, but I've known him online for a decade, I'm used to his language and know how intolerant he can be. I'm slightly impressed with him for not getting annoyed.

    At least you explain your thought process as you argue. That is definitely a positive. You are still trying to talk poker. You do have the potential to improve, but you're easily baited into emotional responses. Like I've said before, this is closely related to tilt, a serious problem in poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm not trying to piss you off here, but ask yourself this same question. Your reaction to critisism is aggressive, like you feel personally offended. Nobody is attacking your character, just your poker skills. If you want to discuss poker on the internet, you need to be willing to accept critisism, even if you don't agree with what you read, and even if the person giving you critisism is plain wrong. People are giving their opinions. It's up to you to decide if their opinion is worth more than yours. This is the internet, there's no body language, it's really easy to assume someone is being a jerk when they are not. If keith was being a jerk, he'd just mod ban you for calling him a jerk. That's what jerks do... they react to arguments in disproportionate ways. He's still trying to explain his thoughts to you, it's clear to me he's not being a jerk, but I've known him online for a decade, I'm used to his language and know how intolerant he can be. I'm slightly impressed with him for not getting annoyed.

    At least you explain your thought process as you argue. That is definitely a positive. You are still trying to talk poker. You do have the potential to improve, but you're easily baited into emotional responses. Like I've said before, this is closely related to tilt, a serious problem in poker.
    I dont need to be willing to accept anything I find offensive on the internet, I am in many forums and most of the experienced people can and do get their point across without talking shit, on some of those forums I have seen moderators delete comments less offensive than this, because they go against the rules, theres a fine line between constructive and upbeat critism and being out of line , again it seems you guys have a cult like mentality that you think its ok to thrash people looking for advice and team up , that is why this forum is dead like it or not.
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-26-2020 at 08:09 AM.
  39. #39
    I think the mentality here is more to allow people to say what they like without censorship. The mods here do not like to delete comments. Some people prefer an environment like that, I'm one of them. If every time I said fuck I got told off, I'd go elsewhere.

    But you're right, you don't have to accept anything you don't want to. It's your choice whether you continue to post here. If you do, you'll continue to get people say what they think without giving a fuck how such comments are taken. Maybe sometimes you'll find that beneficial. Maybe not. When I first started posted here, I was grateful for the critisism I got. And I got a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think the mentality here is more to allow people to say what they like without censorship. The mods here do not like to delete comments. Some people prefer an environment like that, I'm one of them. If every time I said fuck I got told off, I'd go elsewhere.

    But you're right, you don't have to accept anything you don't want to. It's your choice whether you continue to post here. If you do, you'll continue to get people say what they think without giving a fuck how such comments are taken. Maybe sometimes you'll find that beneficial. Maybe not. When I first started posted here, I was grateful for the critisism I got. And I got a lot.
    Maybe that's your mentality. I have no obligation to accept anything anyone says on the internet,especially when they are being jerks, I don't even know how skilled any of you are at the game to be taking your opinions/critisms and info. You are a micros player, Mojo is a physics teacher that doesn't play much anymore and who is Keith exactly? not John Little or anybody I have heard of who's advice I can actually take and knowing it will be legit, JL also doesn't talk to people like shit. how about you guys post some hands on here and not just the good ones I would like to see them. I bet I could find better play aswell but would I be rude about it ? no because I'm a good person and I care how others may take my comments, but once you start trying to play mind games or be-little me I'm going to stand my ground nothing wrong with that. Again what makes you think I will benefit from what your saying? your a micros player but you think you have a-lot to teach me ? you havn't even beat micros yet, calm your ego.

    Beans showed what the GTO would do but you are telling me to fold , JL's GTO says I can call and I am given good odds to do so, then you try to make me sound silly for thinking about calling the flop raise, in which I gave you valid evidence to show that was also viable. Are you sure your as good at poker as you think ? don't give people opinions that come off as facts or try to make people feel some type of way when you are in no position to do so.

    Do you not see something wrong with trying to make a player who is asking for help admitting he was confused about a hand feel stupid ?

    "I'm sure Jonathon Little is better than keith. But I'm also sure Jonathon Little isn't playing badly post flop. The fact you're considering calling this flop bet is proof that you're not playing nearly accurately post flop enough to be able to play a short stack skillfully. You can't call a bet on the flop for half your stack with a draw. You're either shoving this or folding, always. This is the position you put yourself in by being short stacked, it's very hard to play hands like flush draws out of position.."

    I've shown you why I think a call can be reasonable ? so are you incorrect or do you have a rebuddle?
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-26-2020 at 09:40 AM.
  41. #41
    Unfortunately you cannot take the main overriding point of my first post, You have to post reads because it will affect the validity of any advice you are given.

    You take offence because I classed you as a fish . GET OVER IT. everyone else at the table should be making reads and they will be seeing the same stuff. I posted the read of the table over one hand because you didn't post anything.Like it or lump it , if I landed on that table with that action thats how I'd classify everyone and then modify reads as time went by and hands on hud started to increase .

    [IRONY]For someone who is so indignant about how people post, you should practice what you preach
    Look who is throwing out all the insults !!! On many forums most of your posts in this thread would have been deleted.[/IRONY]

    UTG Flop Range: QQ+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+
    16.5% Equity

    BU Range Raising Range: QQ,77,22,AQs,Q7s,Q2s,72s,Kd7d,Jd7d,9d7d,8d7d,Kd2d, Jd2d,Td2d,AQo,Q7o,Q2o,72o
    = 52% Equity

    A8dd = 31.3% Equity
    These ranges are a case of retrospectively including hands in ranges. 72 implies you think BTNs playing 100% vpip in this situation , its optimistic at best to think they call pre with 72, Q7o, god knows how he raises flop with 97dd or 8d7d since the 7D is a flop card and we have 8d in our hand, and many Kxdd, Jxdd, Txxx hands are probably calling flop cbet (including K2dd) rather than raising since they are not drawing to the nut flush.
    The range you have is clearly unrealistic and with this action my read is its likely heavily weighted toward a set and most likely 88, 22 since QQ would probably 3bet pre to thin the field rather than going multiway.
  42. #42
    how about you guys post some hands on here and not just the good ones I would like to see them.
    I play limit badugi these days. I occasionally play NLHE but not nearly as much as I used to. And I'm in no doubt I can play many of my hands better, I wish there were people here who could coach me to be better at badugi.

    You want an example of a badugi hand?

    All players have 24bb+ stacks, the most that can be bet in a single hand. Hero is BB and is dealt Ac 2h 9s Qd. UTG raises, folds to button, who 3bets, SB folds, hero?

    Do we cap it because we have a badugi? Do we call and stand pat, see what everyone else does? Do we call and throw the queen away? Do we call and throw the queen and nine away? Or do we fold?

    This is my poker life these days. I talk about NLHE because I like it, but I don't make as much money playing it. I don't make tons playing badugi, I'm on about $100 profit for the month.

    you havn't even beat micros yet, calm your ego.
    I don't have an ego. I just have an opinion and I'm honest about it. If you misread that as an ego, I can't help that. And I have beaten the micros, at least the cheeseburger stakes. At my NLHE peak I was at 25nl and tried to step up to 50nl. That's where I got owned, not at 2nl. I don't think I'm brilliant at poker, but I have experience that some microstakes players might find helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #43
    I've shown you why I think a call can be reasonable ? so are you incorrect or do you have a rebuddle?
    I already said a call is reasonable if we're accurate enough post flop to avoid losing our stack when top pair is beat. I'm unconvinced I can be that accurate, I expect to lose my stack more often than not when I flop a losing ace. That's why I don't want to play this hand pre flop, we're not stacked enough to maximise our profits and minimise our losses.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  44. #44
    And I might be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, it won't be the last. I don't have a problem with that. I certainly do not intend to make anyone feel stupid, and neither does keith. You're the one who takes the comments that way. We can't help that, other than to be insincerely nice to avoid upsetting you.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    Unfortunately you cannot take the main overriding point of my first post, You have to post reads because it will affect the validity of any advice you are given.

    You take offence because I classed you as a fish . GET OVER IT. everyone else at the table should be making reads and they will be seeing the same stuff. I posted the read of the table over one hand because you didn't post anything.Like it or lump it , if I landed on that table with that action thats how I'd classify everyone and then modify reads as time went by and hands on hud started to increase .

    [IRONY]For someone who is so indignant about how people post, you should practice what you preach
    Look who is throwing out all the insults !!! On many forums most of your posts in this thread would have been deleted.[/IRONY]


    These ranges are a case of retrospectively including hands in ranges. 72 implies you think BTNs playing 100% vpip in this situation , its optimistic at best to think they call pre with 72, Q7o, god knows how he raises flop with 97dd or 8d7d since the 7D is a flop card and we have 8d in our hand, and many Kxdd, Jxdd, Txxx hands are probably calling flop cbet (including K2dd) rather than raising since they are not drawing to the nut flush.
    The range you have is clearly unrealistic and with this action my read is its likely heavily weighted toward a set and most likely 88, 22 since QQ would probably 3bet pre to thin the field rather than going multiway.

    Ok so your going back on claiming is BU a fish now lol , and its not optimistic my friend ;

    the range I gave him is the worst case scenario. When the Pessimist range is shown adding in other hands to his range gives us a more favorable result, , Sure he could 3-bet with QQ but in micros people play horrendously and flat call or limp with all premium hands,In micros these ranges are not out of the question.Adding other stuff to this range increases our Equity.BU can pre-flop call with all kinds of suited hands,Broadway-face cards etc. he is given great odds in position to see a flop.Your are extremely stubborn your incorrect about the hand its ok life goes on. Your argument here is just solidifying my point.
  46. #46
    You're just showing yourself up to be an arrogant idiot , even fish know how to fold 72o and even the most clueless should know not to include board cards or your own cards in opponents range.

    You're arguing about GTO when you haven't got a clue what GTO is and why it is used . If you had ,you wouldn't be mentioning it .
    You clearly haven't worked out that if you give attitude to peopple helping you they will just leave you to it .

    since you know everything but cant afford to buy in to poker tables , good luck , you're going to need it.I'm out , I've got far better uses for my time than trying to help you .
  47. #47
    Everybody knows what GTO is in this day and age....
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-26-2020 at 01:49 PM.
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    Unfortunately you cannot take the main overriding point of my first post, You have to post reads because it will affect the validity of any advice you are given.

    You take offence because I classed you as a fish . GET OVER IT. everyone else at the table should be making reads and they will be seeing the same stuff. I posted the read of the table over one hand because you didn't post anything.Like it or lump it , if I landed on that table with that action thats how I'd classify everyone and then modify reads as time went by and hands on hud started to increase .

    [IRONY]For someone who is so indignant about how people post, you should practice what you preach
    Look who is throwing out all the insults !!! On many forums most of your posts in this thread would have been deleted.[/IRONY]


    These ranges are a case of retrospectively including hands in ranges. 72 implies you think BTNs playing 100% vpip in this situation , its optimistic at best to think they call pre with 72, Q7o, god knows how he raises flop with 97dd or 8d7d since the 7D is a flop card and we have 8d in our hand, and many Kxdd, Jxdd, Txxx hands are probably calling flop cbet (including K2dd) rather than raising since they are not drawing to the nut flush.
    The range you have is clearly unrealistic and with this action my read is its likely heavily weighted toward a set and most likely 88, 22 since QQ would probably 3bet pre to thin the field rather than going multiway.

    Equilab made an error when I was working possible ranges, not a big deal your fighting over 2% Equity LOL.

    Here you go


    Flop Ranges;

    UTG; QQ+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+ 8.9% EQ

    BU; QQ,77,22,Q7s,Q2s,Q7o 61.5%

    A8dd 29.6%



    If UTG calls behind its fine, if we use implied odds that villain will call the .25c which is likely we can use pot odds of

    $1.11 ; .35 = 3.17: 1

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