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  1. #1

    Default Hand analysis

    Hi,
    I want to know if I should have been able to fold this hand: http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...362_FA611076A3

    The guy in the sb was a fish, however the bb was a regular player.
    He had those stats:

    VPIP: 13
    PFR: 10
    3BeT: 7

    post flop agression factor of 22%

    After the shove I thought to fold for a few seconds, because I thought that a guy with a post flop agression factor of 22% would only shove when his hand is close to the nuts. But he maybe would have done the same with top set.
    Now it seems so stupid to call....
    Last edited by Pursu7it; 07-28-2015 at 11:31 AM.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You limped behind on the BTN with A2s - a perfect hand to ATS.
    This is too passive.
    A2s plays well IP post flop, and is easy to fold to a 3-bet PRE.

    For now, stop limping. Don't do it. Raise or fold in unopened pots.
    Have a calling range to call opened pots, but when all you're facing is limps, then raise or fold.
    For now.
    There are cases where a limp PRE is valuable, but for now, let's focus on other things.

    BB maybe calls, but probably doesn't if you had opened to $0.10.

    Once it goes to the flop, it's just a cooler. Sigh and move on.
    Nothing special here.

    Your play OTF was not stupid. Villain can definitely have sets and maybe even pair+straight draw w/ {33-55,A3-A5}.
    IMO, your mistake was PRE.
  3. #3
    Okay thanks, I will try to don't limp behind anymore in LP.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Not just LP. Don't do it from any position.
    No limping from you right now.
    NONE.

    (I'm open to getting advice from someone who uses pre-flop limping at 2NL to broaden my perspective here.)
  5. #5
    From EP and MP I never limp, I always open if I am the first one.
    But in LP when someone limps I thought I can also limp, because I am litte bit more protected and with AXs I want more people in the pot.
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You'll make more money by giving them a reason to fold PRE. They've already told you that they're ready to fold by limping in the first place. Almost always, they've capped their range rather significantly.

    You'll make more money post flop by having a bigger pot on the flop, allowing you to make bigger bets (and the occasional bluff) and get to an all-in situation much more easily when you hit.

    You'll lose less money by forcing the blinds to make a decision facing pot odds that are much less forgiving of their mistakes.


    Don't think you are always going to win, just because you're playing more aggressively.
    You still have to fold your share post flop.

    I find that if you balance your aggression on the turn and river, you can avoid most mistakes by acknowledging that Villains are folding plenty PRE and OTF, and when they continue, they probably have a significant piece of the board.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Not just LP. Don't do it from any position.
    No limping from you right now.
    NONE.

    (I'm open to getting advice from someone who uses pre-flop limping at 2NL to broaden my perspective here.)
    Yeah, i was going to post the same. Try to NEVER limp.

    And yeah...the hand is a cooler. He can be doing that with lots of hands which you are ahead. He can have sets, two pair, some draws, same straight....
    You are favorite to win this hand, so good call
  8. #8
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Post-flop is completely fine. You're ahead of a ton of his range. Remember that his range includes any two cards, so while he can have 76, he can also have any set and any two pair.

    I agree that you should not be open-limping right now.

    With that having been said, I'm extremely against MadMojoMonkey's advice of trying to never limp behind. Generally speaking, there aren't a lot of situations where you should limp behind a single limper (more on this below). However, once there are two or more limpers, that changes quit a bit, especially if you're in late position.

    From late position, low suited aces, medium suited connectors and low pocket pairs are great examples of hands that would play much better with a limp if you're facing 2+ limpers than raising. Broadway hands and medium suited aces (say A8s+ or so), however, are good examples of the type of hands that you'd want to raise because they play much better when you're against a single opponent.

    The point of raising after limpers is that you want to create a situation where you are heads-up on the flop as the aggressor. These situations are extremely favorable to you, and it's something that your stats in the other thread suggested you should work on.

    However, if you can get in a multi-way situation with a limp in position with a low suited ace, middle suited connector or small pocket pair, then that's going to usually get more value than isolating.

    With the exception of extremely nutty hands like QQ+, playing for high pair type hands benefits you the most when you're against a single opponent with small-medium stacks. Along similar lines, playing for hands that have little to no high pair value (eg: small PPs, small suited aces, middle suited connectors) play best multi-way with deeper stacks.

    One last note: The one time you should be a little hesitant to isolate against a single limper is when a tight/aggressive player open limps from early position. You should take notes on what these players are limping with so you know if they're just limp/calling with small pocket pairs trying to hit a flop or if they're looking to limp/3bet to trap people. If you don't know how they're playing, go ahead and isolate them (ie: raise) to figure out what they're doing.

    Cliff Notes: Isolate individual limpers like your life depended on it (except against taggs open limping from early position when you should be a little more careful), but limp behind multiple limpers with hands that make sense.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 07-28-2015 at 08:27 PM.
  9. #9
    Ok thank you, so to sum up:

    - With "weak" speculativ hands like A2s/45s/33 I should limp behind in LP if there are multiple pre limper.
    - With "stonger" speculativ hand like A8/Broadways I should raise in LP if there are multiple pre limper.

    Should I also raise a single limper in EP/MP with A2s? Like in this specific hand.
  10. #10
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    { Moved to Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em }

    One other thing. We keep general questions/discussion in the Beginners Circle forum and hand analysis in the Small Stakes No-Limit Hold'em forum just for the sake of organization.
  11. #11
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursu7it View Post
    Ok thank you, so to sum up:

    - With "weak" speculativ hands like A2s/45s/33 I should limp behind in LP if there are multiple pre limper.
    - With "stonger" speculativ hand like A8/Broadways I should raise in LP if there are multiple pre limper.

    Should I also raise a single limper in EP/MP with A2s? Like in this specific hand.
    Yes as a general rule, though be mindful against taggs in EP who do this, and try to figure out what they're limping with.
  12. #12
    I'm overlimping a lot these days, I'm playing 10/20 30bb capped games vs gambling addicts though. Here, we're near on 200bb deep vs bb, and a fish just limped. This is a great spot to ISO the fish. He's c/f'ing most flops, and we have nut potential vs bb when he comes along. Of course there's reverse implied odds, and here we see it in all its brutal glory, but this is never a fold post flop at these stakes. And I don't hate the limp, I just prefer to raise because we have the button and a sutied ace vs a limp fish.

    Post flop is fine, you have to assume he can do this with 66-88, let alone sets and nut flush + straight draw combos.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    Spoon covered it tons better than I ever could. I try not to read his posts before I post because I don't want his opinion influencing me. I'm pleased to see I agree with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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