Flop NFD Jam Over Raiser - Line Check

1 182063508 2015-03-14 20:05:41 TRANS_START_BALANCE CamoToe $ 0.00 $3.85
2 182063509 2015-03-14 20:05:41 TRANS_START_BALANCE DGabageMan $ 0.00 $1.99
3 182063510 2015-03-14 20:05:41 TRANS_START_BALANCE 5card69 $ 0.00 $2.17
4 182063511 2015-03-14 20:05:41 TRANS_START_BALANCE BiggSlikk9 $ 0.00 $2.00
5 182063512 2015-03-14 20:05:41 TRANS_START_BALANCE Iceman_1 $ 0.00 $4.54
6 182063514 2015-03-14 20:05:41 TRANS_START_BALANCE Lebbaeus $ 0.00 $1.58
7 182063658 2015-03-14 20:05:42 POST SMALL BLIND 5card69 $ -0.01
8 182063723 2015-03-14 20:05:42 POST BIG BLIND DGabageMan $ -0.02
9 182063724 2015-03-14 20:05:42 GETCARDS CamoToe $ 0.00
10 182063725 2015-03-14 20:05:42 GETCARDS DGabageMan $ 0.00
11 182063727 2015-03-14 20:05:42 GETCARDS 5card69 $ 0.00
12 182063728 2015-03-14 20:05:42 GETCARDS BiggSlikk9 $ 0.00
13 182063729 2015-03-14 20:05:42 GETCARDS Iceman_1 $ 0.00
14 182063730 2015-03-14 20:05:42 GETCARDS Lebbaeus $ 0.00
15 182065031 2015-03-14 20:05:48 FOLD CamoToe $ 0.00
16 182065518 2015-03-14 20:05:50 CALL Lebbaeus $ -0.02
17 182066722 2015-03-14 20:05:55 FOLD Iceman_1 $ 0.00
18 182067333 2015-03-14 20:05:58 RAISE BiggSlikk9 $ -0.08
19 182067942 2015-03-14 20:06:01 RAISE 5card69 $ -0.19
20 182069330 2015-03-14 20:06:07 FOLD DGabageMan $ 0.00
21 182069661 2015-03-14 20:06:09 CALL Lebbaeus $ -0.18
22 182071366 2015-03-14 20:06:16 CALL BiggSlikk9 $ -0.12
23 182071368 2015-03-14 20:06:16 COMMUNITY_CARDS $ 0.00
24 182072464 2015-03-14 20:06:21 BET 5card69 $ -0.62
25 182073790 2015-03-14 20:06:27 FOLD Lebbaeus $ 0.00
26 182076525 2015-03-14 20:06:39 RAISE BiggSlikk9 $ -1.80
27 182077590 2015-03-14 20:06:43 CALL 5card69 $ -1.18
28 182077592 2015-03-14 20:06:43 COMMUNITY_CARDS $ 0.00
29 182077593 2015-03-14 20:06:43 WIN 5card69 $ 3.99
30 182079172 2015-03-14 20:06:50 SHOW CARDS 5card69 $ 0.00
31 182079173 2015-03-14 20:06:50 SHOW CARDS BiggSlikk9 $ 0.00
32 182079996 2015-03-14 20:06:54 GET MORE CHIPS BiggSlikk9 $ 2.00

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It's nigh impossible to post hand histories from BetOnline but villain was holding AhKd and I was holding Ah8h. Flop came down 7c7d4d. When he bet .62 into the pot, I jammed over for the rest of my stack.

Is this sound or a bad play? This is the first all in with a NFD that I've felt uneasy about in the last several thousand hands. As it was, he was holding two overcards and nothing else. Did I have enough FE to jam? No specific reads on villain as this server doesn't allow HUDs and I had no notes on him as I hadn't seen him before.

I don't understand your description of the situation. I think you meant you were holding Ad8d. Just type out the scenario with all the relevant information (preflop action, villain's tendencies, villain's betting range, stack sizes, pot size). You can use the images like to make it easier on the eye.

Plus you shouldn't tell us what villain had.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

I don't understand your description of the situation. I think you meant you were holding Ad8d.

I didn't mean I was holding Ad8d...I actually said it

Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby

It's nigh impossible to post hand histories from BetOnline but villain was holding AhKd and I was holding Ah8h. Flop came down 7c7d4d. When he bet .62 into the pot, I jammed over for the rest of my stack.

Did I have enough FE to jam? No specific reads on villain as this server doesn't allow HUDs and I had no notes on him as I hadn't seen him before.

You should put villain on a range. Then work out the EV of your semi-buff shove. Also, you could look at how you'd play the rest of the hands in your range in this spot.

In the OP you say "I was holding Ah8h," but it doesn't really matter. It's too difficult to read that hand history to really comment further.

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

In the OP you say "I was holding Ah8h," but it doesn't really matter. It's too difficult to read that hand history to really comment further.

Well, that's about the best that I can do since...as I've made abundantly clear ...they don't allow HUDs on that server.

Since you clearly see what I'm holding, what villain is holding, and what the board was - I don't really see what else you would need to know in order to at least comment on the hand other than criticizing the way it's posted.

Not a big deal. I'll go post it on 2p2.

There's no point gettin' your knickers in a twist over nothing. What villain is actually holding is irrelevant, you didn't know what he was holding when you made the decision to shove all-in. There is a range of possible hands villain could be holding after he bets $0.62 into two players, his bet size looks to be on the large side, but I dunno what the pot size was so I don't really know.

Once you put villain on a range you can calculate the EV of your shove. You can look at things from Villain's point-of-view and see how much equity he needs to call your shove, and see how often (if ever) he's folding. Also you can look at how you'd play the rest of your range. If you're calling A8s preflop then you're more than likely calling A7s preflop too, would you take the same line with A7s?

Is there no instant hand replayer where you could jot down the relevant info and provide us with a HH that's a little easier to work with?

Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby

Well, that's about the best that I can do since...as I've made abundantly clear ...they don't allow HUDs on that server.

Since you clearly see what I'm holding, what villain is holding, and what the board was - I don't really see what else you would need to know in order to at least comment on the hand other than criticizing the way it's posted.

Not a big deal. I'll go post it on 2p2.

In the OP, you said you shoved over your opponent with ace-high. Did you mean that you had the nut flush draw? If so, that's not what you typed, and it's unclear from your post.

Also you should drop the attitude if you're looking to get help here. Acting like an asshole isn't going to help anyone. We're here to help you, so when you're asked a question, it's in your best interest to answer it.

For example, if you've typed out what could be the incorrect information for the hand you're holding in the OP, and someone asks you about it, then you should treat it seriously since there's literally no way to help you if you don't.

If you can get the raw text HH from BetOnline, then I can show you how to get it converted to something forum-friendly for discussion and your own analysis.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

In the OP, you said you shoved over your opponent with ace-high. Did you mean that you had the nut flush draw? If so, that's not what you typed, and it's unclear from your post.

Also you should drop the attitude if you're looking to get help here. Acting like an asshole isn't going to help anyone. We're here to help you, so when you're asked a question, it's in your best interest to answer it.

For example, if you've typed out what could be the incorrect information for the hand you're holding in the OP, and someone asks you about it, then you should treat it seriously since there's literally no way to help you if you don't.

If you can get the raw text HH from BetOnline, then I can show you how to get it converted to something forum-friendly for discussion and your own analysis.

Believe me, the hand histories on this network drive me nuts, too. They don't even look like a hand history and that's why I can't find any converter that knows what the fk it is.

I can access the raw history though and obviously would be open to any advice concerning where to find a converter that recognizes these.

As for the hand - Yes...I was holding the nut flush draw on the flop and he was holding AKo. He had ace high. He bet .62 into a pot that was probably about .38 already and I jammed.

Okay, I just looked at this again, and I think I've figured out wtf is going on.

Hero is on the BTN. Dealt to Hero:

Fish limps, Hero raises to 4bb, Villain 3bets to 10bb, Fish calls, Hero calls.


Pot-size: 31bb


Flop:


Villain bets 31bb, Fish folds, Hero ???

Villain has 59bb behind. (~63% PSB left on the turn if Hero calls)


What was Villain's range? What was your range? Obviously I've ignored rake because I don't know how to account for it.

^ Thank you. Yes - this is the way the hand played out.

I'm starting to use Equilab after sessions now and figuring out what kind of equity I'm dealing with on some of these flops and turns. I just had a session where I lost 1 BI and had a few hands where I wasn't sure if I should have shoved or not but Equilab confirmed that one was borderline and the other was an all day shove. It's really a great piece of software.

When I get a chance I'll sit down and calculate what I think villain's/my range was and compare the two for equity.

As for rake: This network sucks in many departments. I'm primarily playing here until WPN offers another reload bonus and because the population on Chico is really soft. There is no rakeback and I don't know how much rake they're charging but now that you're mentioning it I'm going to go take a look.

http://kingshands.com/soft/ for a hand converter

Originally Posted by Keith

http://kingshands.com/soft/ for a hand converter

It's pay only but ... I may consider it. I'm really waiting for WPN to put out another reload bonus and then I'm depositing a few hundred over there and never looking back.

I can't for the life of me figure out what you expected him to think you had, and therefore why you expect him to fold anything other than the kind of stuff you're already ahead of.

[edit] Just saw he 3-bet you pre, which pretty much polarises his range even more to stuff you're already ahead of, and stuff he won't fold on this flop. Pretty sure flatting your suited ace pre is bad too. You're going to fold a lot of flops and be behind when the money goes in on most of the rest.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I can't for the life of me figure out what you expected him to think you had, and therefore why you expect him to fold anything other than the kind of stuff you're already ahead of.

[edit] Just saw he 3-bet you pre, which pretty much polarises his range even more to stuff you're already ahead of, and stuff he won't fold on this flop. Pretty sure flatting your suited ace pre is bad too. You're going to fold a lot of flops and be behind when the money goes in on most of the rest.

Again, my apologies as the hand history is causing confusion. I didn't flat pre...I raised 4x. As for the rest of your post though, I don't really know what you're getting at. That's the point - I expected to be called by a lot of stuff I'm ahead of. That's why I jammed with the nut flush.

I've done a lot of work on Equilab and Flopzilla pertaining to NFD's the past couple of days and I have a much clearer picture of when and when not to do this and what kind of pot odds I'm looking for here. This hand, as played, was borderline acceptable (+EV).

AA (3)
KK (6)
QQ (6)
JJ (6)
AK (12)
AQ (12)

45 combos

If we assume Villain is never folding Jacks or better, then he's folding 24/45 = 53%.

EV of shove = (0.53)(62) + (0.47)(0.40)(121) + (0.47)(0.60)(-59)

EV = 38.97

If you add TT to his range and he stacks off with TT+ the EV only drops to 36.03.

If you remove AQ and add TT the EV drops to 28.19 (A flop betting range of {TT+ AK})

If Villain's betting range is TT+ and he never folds the EV is still 13. Looks like a very profitable shove, nh. (Unless I screwed up the EV calc)

What exactly do you think you're ahead of that he calls here? He 3-bet and you called it right? What in his 3-bet range are you beating when the money goes in?

You have FE because he folds his trash, but you're beating his trash already.

I dunno, maybe this works because people don't think, but your hand if anything looks weaker than it is to me. I expect you to get called pretty wide here. What's he supposed to think you have that you jam over on this board with?

Oh, I see the fish also called the 3-bet pre. Depending on what kind of fish he is, maybe calling pre isn't such a bad idea.

Okay I fucked up the EV calc. When we shove and lose we lose our 90bb shove not 59bbs.

EV of shove vs TT+ with no fold equity = -5.28

EV of shove vs TT+ AK with no fold equity = 1.93

EV of shove vs TT+ AK with 15% fold equity = 10.94 (Bet/folding 50% of the time with AK on the flop)

Looks like it's going to be a slightly -EV shove in a vacuum vs an unknown, especially if you factor in the rake. Although if you're planning on playing some of your value hands in the same way it's probably one of the best Axs you have because of the backdoor straight draw as well.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

What's he supposed to think you have that you jam over on this board with?

Imo Hero's possible value raises are A7s, K7s, 87s, 44, 77. But I dunno what Hero's range is sooo...

BigSlick how would you play a hand like TT here?

Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Imo Hero's possible value raises are A7s, K7s, 87s, 44, 77. But I dunno what Hero's range is sooo...

BigSlick how would you play a hand like TT here?

Forgive me for not getting back to you until now. I discovered the SNG's on BCP and have been a little stuck to them like crack the past few days. I'm seeing if 3 or 4 tabling SNG's will be more profitable at the micros right now than 4 tabling $2NL.

How would I play TT here? Well...first off I appreciate all of your math and the way you laid it out for me. Math is, by far, my academic weak point although I am working on it more than I ever envisioned as a result of simply thirsting for that edge at the tables and overall understanding of the game. I digress...

TT : The only thing I contemplate doing here is whether or not to call or fold. I'm definitely not raising or GII on that flop and more often than not, with limited reads on villain, I'm going to read his range to be JJ+, trips, etc and fold pocket T's relatively quickly.

Right. So essentially if you're winning the hand, you probably just call, and maybe even fold. So when you shove with the NFD, you should be expecting him to call with all the hands better than yours (so this isn't a bluff), in which case you're just getting him to fold his worse hands and getting in as an underdog if he does call.

If you're doing this because "I don't want him to improve, would prefer him to fold those worse hands now..." maybe.

I mean, this isn't terrible, but be aware its not really a bluff either. Usually when we bet it's to either get called by worse, or to get better hands to fold, and this does neither of those things.

Bear in mind, I'm talking on this particular board. I'm not saying that a semi-bluff shove in a 3 bet pot facing a c-bet is bad, I'm saying you need to consider your range when you do so, taking into account board texture.

I was just playing around in Excel, and it seems as though the EV of calling is much higher than the EV of jamming. If you call the flop and never fold the turn your EV will be higher than jamming over on the flop. It strikes me as weird though, I never would have thought that would be the case.