Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,257,000 Posts!
Poker ForumSmall Stakes NL Hold'em

Feeling Good

Results 1 to 67 of 67
  1. #1
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)

    Default Feeling Good

    After a three month hiatus and some personal changes in life, I have started taking a bunch of hands here online again and feeling really good. I'm studying the material here on FTR, using my sub to Grinderschool, and all around just digging into the game deeper than ever before.

    I was starting to see a lot of things click in the fall right before I stopped playing, too. Not like this, though. The mental clarity I have now is allowing me to receive information and make adjustments far better than before.

    I'll be around these forums quite a bit as I boost the bankroll here.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  2. #2
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    UTG+1: 184 BB
    MP: 49 BB
    MP+1: 100 BB
    MP+2: 80.5 BB
    CO: 45 BB
    BTN: 75.5 BB
    SB: 35.5 BB
    Hero (BB): 121.5 BB
    UTG: 100 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, MP+1 posts penalty blind 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has A Q

    UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, MP+1 checks, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 0.5 BB, Hero checks

    Flop: (4 BB, 4 players) T 5 2
    SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP+1 checks

    Turn: (4 BB, 4 players) 8
    SB checks, Hero bets 4 BB, fold, MP+1 raises to 24 BB, fold, Hero calls 20 BB

    River: (52 BB, 2 players) T
    Hero bets 96.5 BB and is all-in, MP+1 calls 75 BB and is all-in

    MP+1 shows A K (Flush, King High)
    (Pre 74%, Flop 83%, Turn 77%)
    Hero shows A Q (Flush, Ace High)
    (Pre 26%, Flop 17%, Turn 23%)
    Hero wins 192 BB

    3 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    Totally Hollywooded the time bank on the river to get him to be absolutely positive I wasn't holding the Ad.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  3. #3
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    Birds flying high, you know how I feel.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Birds flying high, you know how I feel.
    I do, I do!
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  5. #5
    Raise pre, obviously.
  6. #6
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    Turn call is dreadful. You're calling 20bb, and you like 8/46, just under 1 in 6, rivers. So we need to be winning 120bb ON AVERAGE when we make our hand to justify this call. Villain has 100bb. I admire that optimism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Raise pre, obviously.
    I'm hesitant to raise pre from the blinds with AQo in a multiway pot since AQo plays so poorly multiway. I'd rather just check down and see the flop, no?

    Sometimes the iso raise at these stakes doesn't iso anyone. It just brings three fish along for the ride, you know?
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  8. #8
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Turn call is dreadful. You're calling 20bb, and you like 8/46, just under 1 in 6, rivers. So we need to be winning 120bb ON AVERAGE when we make our hand to justify this call. Villain has 100bb. I admire that optimism.
    I didn't realize it was a bad call. I thought due to implied odds, it would have been dreadful if I didn't call that turn as hitting a diamond on the river basically = his stack.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  9. #9
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    Hero (BB): 138 BB
    UTG: 146.5 BB
    CO: 100 BB
    BTN: 388.5 BB
    SB: 132 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J 9

    fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

    Flop: (9 BB, 3 players) 9 T J
    SB checks, Hero bets 6 BB, BTN raises to 18 BB, SB calls 18 BB, Hero calls 12 BB

    Turn: (63 BB, 3 players) 9
    SB checks, Hero bets 30 BB, BTN raises to 367.5 BB and is all-in, fold, Hero calls 87 BB and is all-in

    River: (297 BB, 2 players) A

    Hero shows J 9 (Full House, Nines full of Jacks)
    (Pre 64%, Flop 19%, Turn 100%)
    BTN shows 8 7 (Straight, Jack High)
    (Pre 36%, Flop 81%, Turn 0%)
    Hero wins 282.5 BB

    4 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    I knew the 30bb bet on the turn would bring him along. It was almost painful to watch him snap his stack off. Almost
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  10. #10
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    I didn't realize it was a bad call. I thought due to implied odds, it would have been dreadful if I didn't call that turn as hitting a diamond on the river basically = his stack.
    The implied odds are insufficient. It's 20bb call in an 8bb pot with 77bb behind. We make our hand roughly 1 in 6 times... we need to win 120bb once every six hands to cover the five times we miss the river. Even if he puts his stack in EVERY SINGLE TIME we hit the river, we're still not winning enough. When you factor in that villain is folding a lot of hands vs a shove on a 4th diamond, you'll start to see that you're spending way too much money chasing a flush that isn't going to win you a huge pot nearly often enough.

    You basically got very lucky here that villain had the Kd and refused to fold it.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 01-27-2015 at 09:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    In that second hand, you should probably check turn and let him bet, simply because the sb might call, putting more dead money into the pot. Betting obviously isn't terrible, but it might be slightly more +ev to c/r turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The implied odds are insufficient. It's 20bb call in an 8bb pot with 77bb behind. We make our hand roughly 1 in 6 times... we need to win 1200bb once every six hands to cover the five times we miss the river. Even if he puts his stack in EVERY SINGLE TIME we hit the river, we're still not winning enough. When you factor in that villain is folding a lot of hands vs a shove on a 4th diamond, you'll start to see that you're spending way too much money chasing a flush that isn't going to win you a huge pot nearly often enough.

    You basically got very lucky here that villain had the Kd and refused to fold it.
    Ok, cool. I'm working through the math series on Grinderschool currently and using Flopzilla and Equilab to get a better feel for equities so that combined with study on this site should continue to bring me along.

    As an aside: I didn't understand why he wouldn't fold it either. I thought it was rather obvious that only the Ad would call a shove there.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    I'm hesitant to raise pre from the blinds with AQo in a multiway pot since AQo plays so poorly multiway. I'd rather just check down and see the flop, no?

    Sometimes the iso raise at these stakes doesn't iso anyone. It just brings three fish along for the ride, you know?
    You don't care if every single person calls, raise. This stuff about AQo being bad multiway is rubbish also, why? because you make less flushes? lol. Obviously you'd much rather have 73s......
  14. #14
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    You have posted no reads on Villains in either hand.
    1) Fold.
    2) Sit out.
    3) Watch the table for an orbit or 2 and get some reads.
    4) Buy back in
    5) Play poker

    Obviously, if you're on some turbo-style poker table where your opponents are constantly changing, then this wont work.

    In general, sit, but don't play until you feel you have at least something of a read on everyone at the table.
    Poker isn't about what to do with your cards, it's about what to do against your opponents.
    Calling w/ K-high on one hand and then folding 2-pair the next can be the best play both times.

    Poker advice without reads is just blind guesswork and speculation.

    ***
    Playing AQo in an unraised pot is allowing a ton of inferior hands to see the flop for cheap. AQo is ahead of almost any imaginable limping range, and (in general) when you are ahead, you should bet. A limp/raise from UTG generally represents too strong a range to call with AQo (I'm guessing), but don't assume UTG has the top of his limping range every time he limps.

    OngBonga has already pointed out why the implied odds on the call OTT were not enough to call with a bare NFD.

    On the 2nd hand, calling PRE in the squeeze spot with J9o is a losing bet. You played fine post, given the runout, but you'll be losing a lot and folding the best hand a lot when you're in between 2 bettors post. Also, J9o from the BB is not very strong at all... J9o is really a hand for BTN steals more often than not.
    The 2nd hand is short handed, though, so maybe the J9o wouldn't be a bad call IF the SB had folded.
  15. #15
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    I thought due to implied odds, it would have been dreadful if I didn't call that turn as hitting a diamond on the river basically = his stack.
    As an aside: I didn't understand why he wouldn't fold it either. I thought it was rather obvious that only the Ad would call a shove there.
    These two comments contradict one another. As it happens, the second quote is the more accurate comment, which only emphasises how bad a call the turn was.

    I'm not saying turn is an outright fold. All I've done is demonstrate it's a bad CALL. It could still be a viable raise; that depends on how much fold equity we have, which depends how wide he raises turn. I would default him a tight range, and assume our fold equity is minimal, especially as we block most bluffs. But if there's any history between us, that could definitely sway my decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    These two comments contradict one another. As it happens, the second quote is the more accurate comment, which only emphasises how bad a call the turn was.

    I'm not saying turn is an outright fold. All I've done is demonstrate it's a bad CALL. It could still be a viable raise; that depends on how much fold equity we have, which depends how wide he raises turn. I would default him a tight range, and assume our fold equity is minimal, especially as we block most bluffs. But if there's any history between us, that could definitely sway my decision.
    See, the second paragraph here harps on something I'm starting to learn here about when to call and when to raise. I'm just starting to raise more OOP with hands that I don't think I can play profitably on the next street to a) charge more and b) hopefully take the pot down right there without having to actually play OOP. Before I dug into things here again a few days ago, that concept was still rather fuzzy. Maybe it still is.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  17. #17
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You have posted no reads on Villains in either hand.
    1) Fold.
    2) Sit out.
    3) Watch the table for an orbit or 2 and get some reads.
    4) Buy back in
    5) Play poker

    Obviously, if you're on some turbo-style poker table where your opponents are constantly changing, then this wont work.

    In general, sit, but don't play until you feel you have at least something of a read on everyone at the table.
    Poker isn't about what to do with your cards, it's about what to do against your opponents.
    Calling w/ K-high on one hand and then folding 2-pair the next can be the best play both times.

    Poker advice without reads is just blind guesswork and speculation.

    ***
    Playing AQo in an unraised pot is allowing a ton of inferior hands to see the flop for cheap. AQo is ahead of almost any imaginable limping range, and (in general) when you are ahead, you should bet. A limp/raise from UTG generally represents too strong a range to call with AQo (I'm guessing), but don't assume UTG has the top of his limping range every time he limps.

    OngBonga has already pointed out why the implied odds on the call OTT were not enough to call with a bare NFD.

    On the 2nd hand, calling PRE in the squeeze spot with J9o is a losing bet. You played fine post, given the runout, but you'll be losing a lot and folding the best hand a lot when you're in between 2 bettors post. Also, J9o from the BB is not very strong at all... J9o is really a hand for BTN steals more often than not.
    The 2nd hand is short handed, though, so maybe the J9o wouldn't be a bad call IF the SB had folded.
    Thank you for taking the time to write this post. I really do appreciate it. The whole post is hugely informative for me.

    I was *not* observing the table for a few oscillations in the past. I will do so now. I was, however, taking extensive notes and reads on villains already and will continue to do so but make sure that I post them with the hand in the future. I'll look back to see exactly what reads I had on these guys but IIRC - they were both about 80 to 100 hands deep with me and were both extremely lag.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  18. #18
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    You don't care if every single person calls, raise. This stuff about AQo being bad multiway is rubbish also, why? because you make less flushes? lol. Obviously you'd much rather have 73s......
    No. I'm not so green that I sit around flush mining with rags. I didn't think AQo was bad multiway because it's not suited, I just thought that statistically it fails to develop hands fit for multiway pots down to showdown.

    Should I generally be raising AQo after 2 or 3 limpers? That's the thing - even on WPN now, there are daisy chains of limpers preflop at some of the tables.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  19. #19
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Should I generally be raising AQo after 2 or 3 limpers? That's the thing - even on WPN now, there are daisy chains of limpers preflop at some of the tables.
    You should not be limping. You should not be playing limped pots except when you have trash in the BB, and then you should be nut-mining.

    In general, treat a limp like an idiot waiting to fold you 1 BB instead of 0.
    Don't get involved with dumb ranges, but when you do get involved, you open it up to 4x + 1BB for each limper.
  20. #20
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You should not be limping. You should not be playing limped pots except when you have trash in the BB, and then you should be nut-mining.

    In general, treat a limp like an idiot waiting to fold you 1 BB instead of 0.
    Don't get involved with dumb ranges, but when you do get involved, you open it up to 4x + 1BB for each limper.
    I don't limp. Ever. I do, however, punish limpers with the 4x+1 2bet when I have cards + position. I'm still working out my cold calling ranges and what not but I'm running at 22/18/8 over 1280 hands and those stats are between full ring and 6 max combined.

    Maybe I should be playing a little looser in the BB. I'll look up my stats.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  21. #21
    You might want to try "Raise/Fold" as your pre-flop mantra. I can't imagine flat calling two limpers with AQ.
  22. #22
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by Timlagor View Post
    You might want to try "Raise/Fold" as your pre-flop mantra. I can't imagine flat calling two limpers with AQ.
    I just got done with a hugely profitable session where I was implementing the things we're discussing in this thread. I scooped up tons of dead money pre and post flop as a result of raising up 2+ limpers repeatedly. You saw my original thought process - I was trying to avoid multiway pots with hands I didn't think played well multiway. As said, I'm learning.

    I do appreciate all of the posts and insight. Studying here and on Grinderschool I am crushing WPN to the tune of 25bb/100 over 2,000 hands. It's by far the best I've ever played poker and I'm going to keep hammering away at this until I iron out all of the leaks that will make moving up a potential nightmare eventually.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  23. #23
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    I just watched a Grinderschool video on combinations and card removal, took a bunch of great notes, and am going to review some ranges on Flopzilla quick before getting back to grinding. Looking forward to another productive day at the tables.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  24. #24
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You should not be limping. You should not be playing limped pots except when you have trash in the BB, and then you should be nut-mining.

    In general, treat a limp like an idiot waiting to fold you 1 BB instead of 0.
    Don't get involved with dumb ranges, but when you do get involved, you open it up to 4x + 1BB for each limper.
    Staying out of limped pots with marginal hands has already saved me more money than I can believe. I see now how in the past I was losing a fortune of money on "bad beats" when the reality was that I was in a pot I never should have even entered. It was a fold pre. My VPIP/PFR has cut down a few points and I'm picking more selective spots to stack fish. Looking for big hands, when villain hits his trash hand, and then extracting every penny.

    Also working on the mental side of things. Just had a session where $4 went to bad beats and I couldn't have been phased less. I know those are coming back to me and it actually felt good to know that I made the right play, regardless of any dollar amount. The dollar amount is going to swing. I can't control that. What I can control is my decisions at the table and making sure that I learn from each and every mistake.

    Even with the 2 BI's gone to a few beats today, I'm still running at a 7bb/100 winrate. Although my "c adjusted" is 3 BI's more than what I've actually won. I've been rivered several times already. Instead of being a baby about it now though, I simply make sure I notice when other people at the table take ridiculous beats. We all go through it and I'm starting to see that my bad beat now and then doesn't make me a unique little snowflake. It's just numbers.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 01-28-2015 at 10:46 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  25. #25
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Obviously I spoke too soon here. Things started out as good as could go and, as usual, wound up in the absolutely worst case scenario possible. Once again, for about the third time I've tried to move up on there, WPN handed me beat, after beat, after beat, after beat, before finally, I chased a couple of times and lost a couple of big pots. At one point I was running 5 BI's under EV after just 2,750 hands. Guys - Beat, after beat, after beat, after beat. Every single time I've ever put money on WPN, it starts out with me hitting every single card imaginable. Beautiful plays, a beat once in a while but the kind of stuff you see in poker when it's played by others. Me? Beat...after beat....after beat....after beat. Before finally, I assume that 10's full of Aces is good enough to stack off with - it's not. A guy who threw away $15 to the rest of the table had aces full of tens. This went on for about 8 hours straight before this hand:


    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    MP+1: 196.5 BB
    MP+2: 73 BB
    CO: 180 BB
    BTN: 105 BB
    Hero (SB): 171.5 BB
    BB: 76.5 BB
    UTG: 104 BB
    UTG+1: 164 BB
    MP: 41 BB

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q Q

    fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, CO calls 8 BB

    Flop: (23 BB, 2 players) 2 6 K
    Hero bets 16 BB, CO raises to 32 BB, Hero raises to 160.5 BB and is all-in, CO calls 128.5 BB

    Turn: (344 BB, 2 players) 5

    River: (344 BB, 2 players) 5

    CO shows K J (Two Pair, Kings and Fives)
    (Pre 29%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
    Hero shows Q Q (Two Pair, Queens and Fives)
    (Pre 71%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
    CO wins 327 BB

    5 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    Total product of tilt. Just couldn't take it anymore. I was actually in not that bad of shape before this (looking back on it now). I have no idea why I shoved here. Probably because this guy also spent four hours dumping money to the rest of the table while I took four bad beats. That not crying like a baby thing isn't working out well because I have to be honest: I really can't remember any night of ever looking back and saying "wow, I got lucky there...whew". I never catch a bad beat in my direction.

    I don't know what to say. I see other people's graphs showing a nonstop upward climb and yet I can NEVER accomplish that since I hit a run of beat, after beat, after beat every few thousand hands. I'm sorry guys, this game has been a total waste of time for me so far. No wonder the micros are so frustrating - No matter what you do, guys playing 64/5/3 will sit there with $8.42 in their stack while guys playing 22/20/6 will be like me: Basically out of poker because they just can't take it anymore. I've never seen a game where you can be rewarded absolutely ZERO for months and months and months of effort. I guess this is the only one.

    I couldn't imagine a person being more patient. People say "don't worry about results! Get out of your head!" Guys - 12 hours straight of watching three day's winnings just go away for NO reason other than I outplayed someone? I sat there for all twelve hours, until the last hand there, like a stone. Not a flinch, great attitude, just taking BEAT after BEAT after BEAT like this one:


    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 40 BB
    BTN: 163 BB
    SB: 103.5 BB
    Hero (BB): 101.5 BB
    UTG: 104 BB
    MP: 129 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A 5

    fold, fold, CO raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

    Flop: (12.5 BB, 2 players) A J 3
    Hero checks, CO bets 34 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 34 BB

    Turn: (80.5 BB, 2 players) 8

    River: (80.5 BB, 2 players) Q

    CO shows Q Q (Three of a Kind, Queens)
    (Pre 67%, Flop 10%, Turn 5%)
    Hero shows A 5 (One Pair, Aces)
    (Pre 33%, Flop 90%, Turn 95%)
    CO wins 76.5 BB

    1 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    I mean, twelve hours of that?


    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    Hero (CO): 100 BB
    BTN: 101 BB
    SB: 69.5 BB
    BB: 43 BB
    UTG: 146 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A A

    UTG calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 3 BB, fold

    Flop: (9.5 BB, 2 players) 5 2 A
    BB bets 10 BB, Hero raises to 96 BB and is all-in, BB calls 29 BB and is all-in

    Turn: (87.5 BB, 2 players) 4

    River: (87.5 BB, 2 players) J

    Hero shows A A (Three of a Kind, Aces)
    (Pre 82%, Flop 71%, Turn 78%)
    BB shows 8 9 (Flush, Ace High)
    (Pre 18%, Flop 29%, Turn 22%)
    BB wins 83.5 BB

    1 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 60 BB
    Hero (BTN): 199 BB
    SB: 93 BB
    BB: 43.5 BB
    UTG: 100 BB
    MP: 101.5 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q Q

    fold, MP raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to 60 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 48 BB

    Flop: (124.5 BB, 2 players) 4 T 2

    Turn: (124.5 BB, 2 players) 5

    River: (124.5 BB, 2 players) T

    CO shows T K (Three of a Kind, Tens)
    (Pre 28%, Flop 25%, Turn 11%)
    Hero shows Q Q (Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
    (Pre 72%, Flop 75%, Turn 89%)
    CO wins 118.5 BB

    2 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


    I could post at least a dozen like that and worse.


    Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 113 BB
    BTN: 131 BB
    SB: 121 BB
    Hero (BB): 118.5 BB
    UTG: 236 BB
    MP: 108 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T T

    fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 9 BB, fold

    Flop: (23 BB, 2 players) K Q A
    SB bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

    Turn: (43 BB, 2 players) T
    SB checks, Hero checks

    River: (43 BB, 2 players) K
    SB bets 51 BB, Hero raises to 98.5 BB and is all-in, SB calls 47.5 BB

    SB shows A A (Full House, Aces full of Kings)
    (Pre 81%, Flop 87%, Turn 93%)
    Hero shows T T (Full House, Tens full of Kings)
    (Pre 19%, Flop 13%, Turn 7%)
    SB wins 228 BB

    4 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    How can anyone ever make any money at the micros? Between the rake, the blinds, and these kinds of beats, I just don't get it. I spent 25 hours working all to watch every single penny x 3 go right down the drain for absolutely no reason other than some guy got lucky.

    I've fucking had it with this. Just once I'd like to NOT hit a ridiculous run of beats on this site. Once. I mean, I'm not a zen master. After enough hands like that, you're going to spew once in a while. Think I could EVER get lucky and get bailed out? I know you won't believe me but no. I would say in maybe the 50k hands I've ever played I can't recall one instance (I'm sure there's one or two for a few pennies at 2nl) where I made a bad move, was way behind, and got really lucky to win the pot. NEVER. Villain? You see them above...

    I'm 32 years old. I can't waste this amount of time playing a game where you take one step forward and four steps back simply because the game requires that bad players keep enough interest to keep sitting down to the tables. Maybe this game's not for me. I like that when you outplay a guy, you win. At least sometimes. Once in a while. A handful of times. Maybe.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 01-29-2015 at 05:23 AM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  26. #26
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    QQ vs KJ... what the hell are you doing shoving the flop? What are you hoping will happen? Villain calls JJ? This is just frustrated spew. I get the cbet, villains at 2nl are floating middle pairs so there's value in cbetting, but b/r'ing an underpair is just crazy stuff. Don't do this. Fold to his raise and forget about it.

    A5s... I'd probably sighcall flop seeing as he's only got 2x pot stack, and he's spazzing it on flop. So he hits a river two outer. Big deal. Make a note.

    AA... outstanding, this guy is our friend. Make a note, target this guy as much as possible.

    QQ vs KT... also outstanding, this guy is also our friend. Make a note.

    TT... fold flop, not close. Your pot odds are ok, but your implied odds suck, and the reverse implied odds are brutal. To put that in simple language... when we improve, we can expect to win small pots and lose big pots. So fold the flop, it doesn't get much worse for TT, especially in a 3b pot. Who cares about the gutshot? I don't. Fold.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #27
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    How can anyone ever make any money at the micros?
    Two of the five hands in that list are butchered by you, and three of them are villains getting lucky.

    Notice that in the three hands where villains got lucky, you only lost around 140bb. In the two hands you spew, you lose 270bb.

    Don't worry about the times villain gets lucky. That isn't what you need to focus on. In the other hands, you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of your basic probabilities, a poor understanding of implied odds, weak pre flop tendancies, and a serious lack of discipline.

    Start with the discipline. If you're feeling tilted, stop playing poker and do something else, maybe watch some comedy, or take the dog for a walk. Then you'll be in a better frame of mind to tackle the more challenging aspects, like ranges, pot odds and equity.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 01-29-2015 at 07:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28
    Someone had a rule:
    If you're down 2BI end the session.
    Might be a good one to try.

    You should take a break every couple of hours anyway.

    I don't like the A5 flop call. Villain was being an idiot (/bluffing) but TPWK is not something I'd want to be calling 3xPot with unless I had good reason to believe he was being an idiot. I like this spot for a "donk" bet

    Rule of thumb (for micros) if you can stick to it (I'm trying):
    Don't call when the other guy bets unless you were positively hoping for him to do so.
    Doesn't really apply to drawing hands but it can save you lots with Pairs and low flushes/straights.


    Hope things look up again.
    Bad runs do happen and the people they happen to are likely to feel them strongly but there's no particular reason to think such a run will continue -you might want to go back and check your database with a cool head though to see if it's really as unbalanced as you think in the cold light of day.

    Bear in mind that the EV number you get from HM2 (and so I presume also from PT4) only counts EV when you go All In which doesn't do anything for the times he sucks out and then shoves.
    Last edited by Timlagor; 01-29-2015 at 10:38 AM.
  29. #29
    Every hand you played except the QQ where you get it in pre with someone short stacked is played terribly. After you've calmed down and if you stick around I'll happily provide my 2c on the hands.
  30. #30
    lol I have a 18k sample of the same thing. down 4 BIs overall. at one point I was up 11 BIs, then straight down to -11BIs. that was in 11k hands. took me 7k to get back to -4 BIs. which doesn't really matter to you but what im saying is variance is a bitch, but the when the bitch drops the knife she was using to stab you with. you shouldn't trip and fall on it and roll around like your making blood snow angels. ( that's what happens when you misplay hands due to suckout frustration)
    "The harder you work, the luckier you get." ~ courtesy of my fortune cookie from china king

    "One of the best pieces of advice I've ever read in this forum was three words long...

    bet fucking fold." Ong
  31. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    8,684
    Location
    soaking up ethanol, moving on up
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    I see other people's graphs showing a nonstop upward climb
    look at the x-axis on those graphs. You'll note that the non-stop upward climbs are over huge sample sizes of hands, big enough that the twenty buyin downswings don't even register. If you tilt every time you get badbeat then you magnify the extent of the loss. If you can't control your mental game then, yep, poker isn't the game for you.

    re those hands in the tilt post
    QQ hand -not sure why you decided to dump 1.6 buyins with terrible postflop?
    A5s hand - fold pre, fold flop. And sometimes people hit their outs. whatever. 40bb. laugh and move on

    etc. I can post some badbeats if you want but nah.
    also, read ong's posts in this thread.
  32. #32
    So hard for newer players not to get results orientated. if you are going to get long term enjoyment out of poker you really must take coolers on the chin. Once tilting gets a hold it can get very messy. You also need to work harder on your basics. Some of these lines are pretty ropey. Take on board what people tell you.

    Last year I learnt to play poker and played 45K hands. Was 35 BI below EV. Just got fed up with what i thought was an unfair amount of coolers and quit. This is fine I suppose as there are players who are just very unlucky (and very lucky) but a huge proportion are either slightly lucky/unlucky/break even over a large sample. See Normal Distribution.

    Started playing again Monday and I am +3BIs over EV after 1.2K hands and very lucky hitting sets as well. Maybe if I had stuck at it last year I would have gone +70 BIs above EV on the next 45K. Who knows?

    Anyway, try to just enjoy playing good poker hands and try to understand why you played this hand or that badly. Good Luck at the tables.
    Last edited by DJAbacus; 01-30-2015 at 05:49 AM.
  33. #33
    DJ I'd suggest just ignoring all in EV because it's about as pointless as your actual results over such small samples.

    It's also worth noting that all in EV isn't EV.
  34. #34
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Also, you gotta remember that when you get "bad beat"
    It means you put your chips in as the favorite, the implication is that it was not a flip, so you were a big favorite.

    That's how you win at poker. You get bad beat more and more, the better you are, because, presumably, you are folding more when you're behind, and betting more when you are ahead.

    You can't lay a bad beat on someone if you got your chips in when you were ahead.

    Something to think about.
  35. #35
    Absolutely, and my message to the OP is that he is where I was at certain points last year. An online friend of mine who kind of took me under his wing said that I was doing fine and the only thing I didn't have was the confidence that I would win in the long run. Learn to love losing with an edge. Have fun playing. Have fun reviewing your hands and try to learn from your mistakes. Poker isn't easy and it takes time to get to grips with how to approach different situations. I'm glad I came back to it. It's a real fun game. ☺
  36. #36
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by DJAbacus View Post
    What is this sorcery?
  37. #37
    OngBonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16,068
    Location
    England
    ☺☺☺☺☺
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #38
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
  39. #39
    OK, one more post here as I really empathize with you OP.

    Let's assume you have a read on a Villain who will call any shove PF.

    You get AA 10 hands in a row and everytime V lucks out.

    Very frustrating, but have you done anything wrong? No! You have a good read and played your hands well.

    You might think that you are the unluckiest poker player ever and ok these 10 hands you were very unlucky, and there is a very small chance you are the unluckiest player ever, but over the long run the chances are that you are neither lucky or unlucky.

    You've lost 10BIs from your bankroll. Will this financial loss have a massive negative effect on your life?

    No.
  40. #40
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by DJAbacus View Post
    OK, one more post here as I really empathize with you OP.

    Let's assume you have a read on a Villain who will call any shove PF.

    You get AA 10 hands in a row and everytime V lucks out.

    Very frustrating, but have you done anything wrong? No! You have a good read and played your hands well.

    You might think that you are the unluckiest poker player ever and ok these 10 hands you were very unlucky, and there is a very small chance you are the unluckiest player ever, but over the long run the chances are that you are neither lucky or unlucky.

    You've lost 10BIs from your bankroll. Will this financial loss have a massive negative effect on your life?

    No.
    In reality, it won't have any effect on anything. It only seems to when I'm in a state of emotional tilt.

    I got the flu shortly after my rant and /quit here and then was a little busy wrapping up a few loose ends in life. I actually still have a touch of the flu via a head cold and sore throat now but at least I can get around and function again.

    I really, really beat myself up over the way I handled my first bad run yet again. I've come to accept that I have some serious issues with tilt and emotions at the table and in life in general. I mean, I was already working on these aspects of myself in real life but I'm focusing on them far more now as I realize I have to make real life changes in order to make changes at the tables.

    I don't want to ever tilt like that again and I don't want to ever handle losses like that again. I feel really stupid for making that big of a deal over a few dollars but it's proportionate, you know? I don't care about $3.41 but I do care about a buyin and a half on one hand. Fact is, once the hand is over I need to accept that it's over and move on. I have a very difficult time letting things go and moving on in real life, as well and this is obviously a huge leak of mine on and off the tables. I'm working on it extensively now. More sleep, better food, less stress, and less of a bullshit sense of entitlement.

    I've also come to accept that I want to play poker. A lot. I can't do that if I keep walking away for two or three weeks every time I hit a nightmare run. At this point, I flat out don't give a shit about the results anymore and this is a mantra I am sticking to. It's JUST poker. It doesn't permeate any other aspect of my life and the only thing that's actually going to effect my poker play is my emotions while playing. So, at the tables I'm going to try to keep the game in proper perspective and not let things get out of control in my head just because I hit a few bad beats.

    I guess part of the problem is that I haven't had a GREAT run yet and I haven't moved up to where I've made any substantial amount of money yet. I have to keep playing with the faith that things will eventually turn up for me but I haven't experienced that yet. I think this makes me impatient at the tables and "in a rush" to put up numbers so I can move up in stakes. At this point I'm just going to work my ass off on the numbers and math and simply play and let whatever comes my way come my way. I'll take what I can get. What I don't want to do is pull a bullshit tantrum again or shove all in with QQ on a K high flop. I'm too smart to make decisions like that and I'm sick of letting my emotions drag me down to a moronic level of play. It's just pathetic and unacceptable.

    I'm studying and playing today. I resubbed to Grinderschool for the month and am going to sub a month to the advancedpokertraining.com site to practice hands and ranges against AI now and then. Fact is, as said, I just miss the game too much when I'm not playing to go through this shit again. I have some really cool videos and articles bookmarked on psychology (poker and non poker related) and am working on balancing out my life throughout the day so that it's easier to stay level during sessions.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  41. #41
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Every hand you played except the QQ where you get it in pre with someone short stacked is played terribly. After you've calmed down and if you stick around I'll happily provide my 2c on the hands.
    I know some of these are terribly played. When I was a few days removed from this incident and looked back over it I literally facepalmed and shook my head. I never make plays like this when I'm thinking straight and I'm tired of making an ass out of myself with hands like this simply because my AA got cracked or some idiot hit his 2 outer on the river. One should not beget the other. I'm just tired of being a fucking fish.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  42. #42
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Problem has been pretty much solved. The point here was to make poise and lack of tilt my strong point and I'm definitely headed in that direction.

    Without writing a novel: When I was younger, I was an athlete. I played a few sports but I was best as a pitcher in baseball. I pitched from 8 yrs old up until 21. I was KNOWN for my poise and emotional stability. Well, life threw a few curveballs at me later on and I let my emotions getting the better of me become a habit. I'm getting back to myself now and responding to things on and off the felt the way that I used to in life. I take them in stride, keep them in perspective, and look toward the future. Learn the lesson and then move on.

    My all around decision making is improving tremendously as a result. I can't really believe that I would be so determined and focused and let myself get that flustered and sidetracked but poker is definitely a game that requires personal harmony and balance to succeed at. I've been back to playing daily, studying a lot, and most of all: Enjoying the game and not micromanaging every little result. I'm just playing the game and focusing on NOT letting my emotions be the driving force behind my decisions.

    Basically - Sorry for the rant and the tantrum. That won't happen again.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  43. #43
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    I just won 4.5 buyins @ 2nl on BetOnline in about an hour and a half. The competition on there is ridiculously soft. I'm up on BlackChip, crushing BetOnline, and absolutely hating my former self for being such a big fucking baby. As said, that's not going to happen again.

    2NL is a little easier when you fold the hands you don't want to fold but know you have to. It feels much better to actually lay the hand down and save $1.46 than to snap call or shove out of sheer spite and frustration. Much better.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  44. #44
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    [...], and absolutely hating my former self for being such a big fucking baby. As said, that's not going to happen again.
    Good luck with that.
    I've seen this mentality proven to be a glass house time and again.

    Polish your mirror to a sheen, and be honest with yourself when you look.
  45. #45
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Good luck with that.
    I've seen this mentality proven to be a glass house time and again.

    Polish your mirror to a sheen, and be honest with yourself when you look.
    I hear you but really - I did turn a corner. I really did some deep soul searching here and spent a lot of time figuring this out. I had to put the game in proper perspective. I've had some really, really bad days in my life and I've lost some unbelievably significant people and things in my life. Every time I lost a pot I let this feeling of getting screwed out of everything swirl around in my head and lead to an emotional blow up. The problem wasn't the hand I just played...the problem was my expectations at the table in the first place. I cannot expect to load up a session, win a fortune, and wash my problems away with it. I'm legitimately getting used to feeling good about making great plays instead of "winning money". I genuinely am starting to FEEL and BELIEVE that if I continue to put in the volume and continue to put in the work off the felt, that in the long run the results will be there. I'm also starting to accept that 5bb/100 is winning big and not get out of control over not making money fast enough at the micros. I'll build the roll, as long as I keep my emotions in check.

    There have been a couple other times in life where I had to draw the line for myself and say "not one more inch!". Seriously, I'm never behaving like that again in my poker career. It needs to stop NOW before the pots are 30, 80, 150, 300+ dollars a hit. I'm going to continue taking tons of hands here and learning the game properly ...both technically and emotionally.

    Just this week of playing, if I still had my previous attitude, I'd be down at least 10+ buyins already. I was making absolutely terrible calls and shoves during tilt previously and just making it impossible to win anything consistently...and yet I was still winning at like 3bb/100 even after that QQ hand I blew up over. As it stands now, I'm up over 6 BI's in just five thousand hands. As said, the key here isn't the #bb/100 I'm winning but that I'm capable of laying hands down now and bet/folding on the turn and river rather than just shoving the chips because I simply can't believe I'm beat again. /Shake head...as said, I will never go back to that infantile way of playing this game.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 03-09-2015 at 05:57 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  46. #46
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Maybe you're right. I hope you're right. I obviously don't know you.

    I do hope that you have had a poker epiphany and have made a permanent change. That'd be awesome.


    I feel, based on my own self and personal experiences:
    1) What got you to this point was the introspection and the willingness to pull yourself out of the rut you were in.
    2) The results you are now experiencing will fade away as soon as you slide into another rut.

    Again... I'm speaking mostly about myself and the people I've known... which is probably a feedback loop of sorts.

    All I'm trying to say is that it's your courage to criticize yourself honestly that has gotten you to this point. In my experience that kind of courage comes and goes.
  47. #47
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Maybe you're right. I hope you're right. I obviously don't know you.

    I do hope that you have had a poker epiphany and have made a permanent change. That'd be awesome.


    I feel, based on my own self and personal experiences:
    1) What got you to this point was the introspection and the willingness to pull yourself out of the rut you were in.
    2) The results you are now experiencing will fade away as soon as you slide into another rut.

    Again... I'm speaking mostly about myself and the people I've known... which is probably a feedback loop of sorts.

    All I'm trying to say is that it's your courage to criticize yourself honestly that has gotten you to this point. In my experience that kind of courage comes and goes.
    Well, that's the thing that poker has forced me to do since I refuse to just quit and walk away: I have had no choice but to totally and completely remove any expectations, entitlement, or emotions from my poker game. Completely. I told you...I have serious problems with anxiety (not social phobias but personal anxiety and perfectionism) in my personal life. For years. These were manifesting themselves in my poker game horribly. The progress that I'm making here is helping me tremendously both on and off the felt.

    Let's say later on I play a bad hand. Not a bad beat - I lose a buyin and a half because of a total shit play. That's all that actually occurred there. I played a bad hand and lost a few meaningless chips. What happens next is directly in my control. The hands are still being dealt and the other hand is over whether I acknowledge that fact or not. My emotional response and tilt really has no logical foundation whatsoever. The thing that bothers me about a bad play is that I made a bad play. Only way to feel better about that is to move forward and make a good play.

    The thing is, man - I don't even care about the money. I'm by no means rich or even doing slightly well (right now...I've had my good days) but losing money isn't what I'm worried about here or afraid of. What I was tilting over was personal character flaws and ridiculous expectations of grandeur. It really didn't even have to do with poker itself.

    Right now, I'm just playing the game and allowing it to be my escape from everything else. I'm not looking at my balance and I'm not worrying about the money. I'm just making good plays. I KNOW I'll inevitably hit a downswing eventually but I'm really not too concerned about it. My level of play is way beyond that of 2nl right now and I know it's simply a matter of volume before I increase the roll and move up. I genuinely am not feeling results oriented anymore. To get myself that worked up over 2nl was just insane.

    In reality, I wasn't even doing that bad before despite the massive leaks I had emotionally and tactically. Due to my newfound poise and control at the table, I'm capable of assessing my game and learning from it far easier. I'm simply playing and understanding poker at a few levels higher than I was a couple of months ago. Thinking back on it: I had no clue.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 03-10-2015 at 05:04 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    My level of play is way beyond that of 2nl right now
    I only pick this statement out because I think it is easy to think this when you are on a heater. If are beating 2nl over at least 25K at 10BB/100 then yes I think you can start to make this assumption.

    There is so much variance going on, you can only really make this judgement over a large sample size, really looking at winrate over 50K-100K is when you can really know how well you are playing.
  49. #49
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by DJAbacus View Post
    I only pick this statement out because I think it is easy to think this when you are on a heater. If are beating 2nl over at least 25K at 10BB/100 then yes I think you can start to make this assumption.

    There is so much variance going on, you can only really make this judgement over a large sample size, really looking at winrate over 50K-100K is when you can really know how well you are playing.
    You're absolutely correct. I really shouldn't make this kind of a statement this early on but the level of play @ 2nl has definitely decreased a bit over the last few months on these US facing sites. There's simply more players in the pool right now and 2nl is a little saturated with incredibly bad play. Of course, I'm improving at the same time so there's a curve there.

    I will, of course, keep my head on straight and put in a large amount of volume before I start getting too comfortable. Let me ask you: Would you say that at least 50k+ hands is what I want to put under my belt before I even think about moving up in the cash games? I'm by no means considering moving up now, I'm just thinking ahead now that you mentioned it.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    You're absolutely correct. I really shouldn't make this kind of a statement this early on but the level of play @ 2nl has definitely decreased a bit over the last few months on these US facing sites. There's simply more players in the pool right now and 2nl is a little saturated with incredibly bad play. Of course, I'm improving at the same time so there's a curve there.

    I will, of course, keep my head on straight and put in a large amount of volume before I start getting too comfortable. Let me ask you: Would you say that at least 50k+ hands is what I want to put under my belt before I even think about moving up in the cash games? I'm by no means considering moving up now, I'm just thinking ahead now that you mentioned it.
    It depends on you.

    I'm playing 2nl atm and will move up to 5nl when I reach $200 (currently at $117 from $83). I will then have a 24 BI shot at 5nl. My next goal would be to move up to 10nl at $400. So I plan moving up based on BR and not on number of hands or winrate.

    I'm a rec player. I think the more time I spend at 2nl, learning the trade then the easier I will be able to make, what I hear are relatively small adjustments at 5nl. Anyway, I might not even get there...

    Since the beginning of the month, I was on a +10BI heater over about 3.5K but since then have dropped -3BIs over next 2.5K hands. Not pure variance obviously, as my play is ok but probably inconsistent, but it doesn't matter how good you are if you lose AA to QQ or AA to QsTs. That's poker.
    Last edited by DJAbacus; 03-11-2015 at 01:51 PM.
  51. #51
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    I will, of course, keep my head on straight and put in a large amount of volume before I start getting too comfortable. Let me ask you: Would you say that at least 50k+ hands is what I want to put under my belt before I even think about moving up in the cash games? I'm by no means considering moving up now, I'm just thinking ahead now that you mentioned it.
    The sad truth is that it is not economically viable to prove to yourself that you're beating any stakes. The reason is that you'd need to play well over 100k hands - probably closer to 300k - to have a statistical significance that says you're 95% likely to be a big winner. (Which means you're 5% of being wrong, and all of us poker players have been 2 outed OTR, so we know that 5% things happen.)

    The point is that you'd be much better served to just move up to bigger stakes when your BR allows it. If you're actually better than your opponents, you'll probably keep winning. If you aren't winning (for whatever reason), then you'll step back down and try to win some more.

    The practical approach is more profitable than trying to marathon a statistically significant "proof" of your skill.

    Use good BR management to decide when to move up and when to move back down.

    You are very probably beating the micros like a boss right now. Keep beating your stakes until you have about 20* buy-ins for the next level.
    E.g. if you're playing 5NL, a buy-in is $5. The next level is 10NL, where a buy-in is $10. You'd like at least 20 of those, or $200 in your BR to take a shot at 10NL.
    Then at 10 NL, if you lose a certain amount, you should step back down to 5NL. You don't want to be left with too small a BR when you step back down, so you want 20 buy-ins there, too. 20 buy-ins @ $5 is $100.

    So a hypothetical BR strategy might be to move up from 5NL to 10NL when you increase your BR to $200 playing 5NL. IF you are losing at 10NL, then you decide to step back down from 10NL to 5NL when your BR dips to $100.


    *You will need to decide how much cushion you want (20 buy-ins... 25 buy-ins... 40 buy-ins). I advise you to choose in such a way that you are never feeling like losing a shove will concern you in the big picture. Personally, I use 25 until 25NL, when I went to 30.
    In general, higher stakes = better opponents = less fat value, more thin value = higher variance in BR swings.
  52. #52
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    ^ Obviously this is incredibly helpful and I greatly appreciate your time.

    I actually had a "rough" session last night. The quotes are used because ...I just didn't tilt. I played pretty well, made a few minor mistakes, and then had a few tough river beats. I lost about 3 BI's and honestly - It didn't phase me in the least. Not one pot. I had some really nice pots I played, too where I got a guy's full stack whereas even a week or so ago I wouldn't have gotten full value on the hand.

    I dunno. I turned 33 on the 1st of this month. Maybe I just got old and mature enough to start actually getting good at this game. My interest and enjoyment in the game has increased as well. I think about hands and lines a lot when I'm away from the tables and I always can't wait to sit back down and play some hands. I really liked the game back in the fall but not like this.

    As said, I'm just going to keep my head down and keep plowing ahead. My volume is pretty good right now (about 1,200 hands a day 3 tabling) and I'm spot studying topics as weaknesses of mine appear. All in all ...I feel back on track.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  53. #53
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Had another session just now where the deck started out ICE COLD for me. The whales on BetOnline were in the mood to just call down everything today and kept hitting their overcard pair on the turn and river. Over and over. Then I had a few all ins where I got rivere'd and finally called a $3.00+ all in with top two pair when it was obvious the other guy had trips and next thing I knew I was down another 5 buy'ins just like that.

    I seriously, not for one second, got mildly tilted. I kept things in perspective, realized that these calling stations were eventually going to hand the chips back to me, and learned from the one really bad hand I played. Long story short, the session ended with me up over a buyin after I went on a $10 run. As said, I seem to really be beginning to grasp the big picture here and realizing how small a sample size a session or two are. Of course, this knowledge and experience leaves me looking back at my former self wondering again what he was doing before but ...I'm glad I've gotten to this point. I'm also learning a ton about strengthening my checking range, pots to check down to showdown, and when to shove all in. It's starting to come together as a result of me removing emotion from the equation.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  54. #54
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Revisiting the bankroll/moving up discussion: I started the month of March here with $107 on my BetOnline account. I have played nothing but $2NL cash games thus far and about ~5,000 hands worth. I'm up to $124 dollars. If I continue winning at this rate and don't discover any glaring leaks in my game, I will move up to $10NL when I hit $200 in the bankroll (20 BI's). Obviously that's going to take a bit of time but that I have.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  55. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Revisiting the bankroll/moving up discussion: I started the month of March here with $107 on my BetOnline account. I have played nothing but $2NL cash games thus far and about ~5,000 hands worth. I'm up to $124 dollars. If I continue winning at this rate and don't discover any glaring leaks in my game, I will move up to $10NL when I hit $200 in the bankroll (20 BI's). Obviously that's going to take a bit of time but that I have.
    Ok, good stuff, but why not have a shot at 5nl at $150 and then 10nl at $250...I think there's a big jump from 2nl to 10nl....
  56. #56
    griffey24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,388
    Location
    Toronto'ish
    Quote Originally Posted by DJAbacus View Post
    Ok, good stuff, but why not have a shot at 5nl at $150 and then 10nl at $250...I think there's a big jump from 2nl to 10nl....
    Yah I don't know the stake structure, but I agree with this post. If there is a stake between 2nl and 10nl, then definitely have a plan to play 5nl as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  57. #57
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by DJAbacus View Post
    Ok, good stuff, but why not have a shot at 5nl at $150 and then 10nl at $250...I think there's a big jump from 2nl to 10nl....
    Well, I am playing mostly on two networks right now: WPN and Chico. On Chico, where I've been playing this whole month, they do have 4nl and even 6nl but nobody plays it. Basically, all the games are at 2nl and then jump to 10nl. That's why I was going to wait until I have $200 to take a shot at 10nl. There's literally no traffic at anything in between.

    On WPN I currently have $142 in my roll and I don't feel comfortable enough yet to try 5nl there with 30 BI's. It's a more competitive network and I would like to have at least $200 in my account on that network to try 5nl. I'm waiting for WPN's next deposit bonus so I can put some money down and grind easily what I need to move up in stakes.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  58. #58
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Well, I am playing mostly on two networks right now: WPN and Chico. On Chico, where I've been playing this whole month, they do have 4nl and even 6nl but nobody plays it. Basically, all the games are at 2nl and then jump to 10nl. That's why I was going to wait until I have $200 to take a shot at 10nl. There's literally no traffic at anything in between.
    have you tried sitting at a 4 or 6nl table and seeing if anyone sits with you ?
  59. #59
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    have you tried sitting at a 4 or 6nl table and seeing if anyone sits with you ?
    My hesitation with that is getting into a simple game of heads up poker with a random I have no information on, you know?
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  60. #60
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Just to return to this quickly, for anyone who finds themselves in a similar position someday: Don't quit, take a break, or try another game. You're just going to wind up back to playing poker inevitably. The real key here is VOLUME. When you start playing, you need to play a lot as a) you need the experience and b) there's going to be wild variance for your first ten to twenty thousand hands. You simply have to outplay negative variance with volume.

    I have been playing every day. A lot. I've had a lot of bad beats and I've also had a lot of hands where I miraculously got dealt KK or AA when it was my last oscillation in a SNG. Literally, my last hand when I'm all in was KK or AA. It ALL evens out in the long run but the long run is what you are responsible for. You simply have to become impervious to emotions at the table. They have absolutely nothing to do with the cards, your stack, or your decision making. Just remove emotions from your game, stop looking at the results so much, and put in a ton of volume/study. Things WILL take care of themselves in the long run.

    Coming onto 2p2 or FTR and posting a rant post and quitting for two weeks is definitely, positively, not the way to handle a few bad sessions and it's just blinding you from being able to identify the weak points in your game and fix them.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  61. #61
    seven-deuce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    597
    Location
    still 5nl
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    My hesitation with that is getting into a simple game of heads up poker with a random I have no information on, you know?
    If they're playing 4nl or 6nl they're shite. You won't be heads-up for long either.
    Erín Go Bragh
  62. #62
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    I figured I'd come write in this thread for a minute or two just to cool down because this is the first legitimate tilt I've felt this month. At all. Instead of repeating past mistakes and jumping right into a few more games or ranting and raving, I'm taking a few to drink a cup of coffee and reflect on what I could have done differently in the past session.

    Nothing major happened or anything like that. It's a product of watching some donks win a lot of money at the same time I hit a terrible stretch of cards. A tournament last night where I basically couldn't have gotten more screwed out of $40+ dollars and then two DONs to start today where I have never seen horrible players get more lucky. It happens. I realize this is an important time for me as this is when I need to stay the most focused and most resolved to continue staying balanced. I'm really close to turning the SNG's into a nice hourly profit and I can see there's a ton of money to be made in some of these rebuy tournaments. I'm close. I just need to relax, keep the big picture in mind, and sit back down to the tables when my pulse subsides
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  63. #63
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,031
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    For me, someone mentioned that I'm not entitled to the win just because I play well.

    Or something like that.

    I had this epiphany where I realized that all of my tilt came from personal issues where I was allowing myself to feel entitled to something more than playing poker. It helped me immensely to be able to just put my finger right on the button and press it.

    Knowing the true root of your own tilt will give you real stamina at the tables.
  64. #64
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    For me, someone mentioned that I'm not entitled to the win just because I play well.

    Or something like that.

    I had this epiphany where I realized that all of my tilt came from personal issues where I was allowing myself to feel entitled to something more than playing poker. It helped me immensely to be able to just put my finger right on the button and press it.

    Knowing the true root of your own tilt will give you real stamina at the tables.
    That's exactly where this tilt originated from - Entitlement. It actually just got worse. 6Max SNG, down to the final two, difference between first and second is $12.58 vs $5.40 with a buyin of $3.20. My A10o vs his 78s. I flop trips, he hits a runner runner flush. Third time that's happened to me in two days. Next table, right at the bubble, I miss click and raise with KJo instead of shove. Monster whale calls...flop comes down 347o - I snap shove with less than a full pot worth bet left behind and he calls. He had 47o vs KJ...turn and river brick. Just horrible. All day it's just random hands killing me.

    What I'm happy about is that I got the tilt under control. I played the last two SNG's quite well and wasn't feeling emotional, bitter, or "screwed" while playing again. Each and every time I take a bad play or a bad beat and don't tilt, it seems to get easier to handle it the next time. Now that the beats have cost me quite a bit of money in a couple of days (for my roll), the bar has certainly been raised. Now it's time to make some money. That's the other plus side: I'm not losing any money on either network I play on...and I think I'm just about to start making some money.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  65. #65
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Much, much different me these days. Long story short - I've already made it all back and then some by putting the $$ out of my head and just playing poker. I'm playing $3 6-max SNG's and DON's and using the skills I've learned against tougher opponents in cash games and on WPN to lean an advantage on my opponents on BetOnline. They have an active SNG community for a US site.

    I'm going to keep playing these for hourly profit and cherry pick MTT's with a nice buyin/payout ratio and ~$1 R/A or ~$3 Freezouts.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  66. #66
    OP, I always find that taking an extensive break from something, especially one that is mentally straining on most people can be the medicine needed to get back on the upswing of things. I'm glad the rest from playing poker served you well. I'm returning from a long break as well and find myself lost in the new online lingo, ha!
  67. #67
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by ShowTheRiver View Post
    OP, I always find that taking an extensive break from something, especially one that is mentally straining on most people can be the medicine needed to get back on the upswing of things. I'm glad the rest from playing poker served you well. I'm returning from a long break as well and find myself lost in the new online lingo, ha!
    This thread, as well as this post, are quite old now but I thought I would return to it just so that others could see that it's ok to leave the game for a bit and come back. Back in about 2013/2014 I started playing both chess and poker quite a bit. I had never played either previously other than simply enough to know the basic rules. When I was making threads like this one, I really was just learning the game (still am), was under rolled, had virtually no income, was in a terrible relationship, and was drinking heavily on and off. No more bad relationship, I have monthly income, I'm over rolled, I don't drink at all, and I don't play chess anymore. Pretty much the only things I do are play poker, study poker, play with my poker software, listen to music, and date. I watch a little bit of TV as I fall asleep at night but that's about it.

    As a result, I'm a totally different entity when it comes to poker. I've changed over the past few years and my rationale/motivations for doing things have altered drastically. I need tangible gain for time/energy invested into something. It's difficult for me to justify doing something for the simple pleasure of doing it. This, I must work on (and am) but at the same time recognize as simply a more mature, wiser, experienced version of me. Long story short - I've started to enjoy the game of poker, as well as learning everything I can about it, much more. Without the distractions I previously had and the fact that I am finally focusing on *just* poker, has changed the way I view the game, think about the game, and feel about the game. All of this combined has also helped me become a lot more emotionally balanced, in control, and stable. I'm handling the ups and downs of both poker and life much better than I used to. There's still stress around me in my life that I'd like to relieve but I'm working on doing so more productively than ever before.

    The game, and the US market, are evolving quite a bit currently. There's a ton to learn and putting in a lot of volume is crucial. I have a Gold sub to PokerStrategy.com, use Power Equilab/Flopzilla, and HUDs. I study hand histories (my own and others) quite a bit and am constantly using Power Equilab to compare/construct different ranges. Even the bad days at the tables are good days compared to not playing at all and the game of poker, as well as the constructive criticism on forums like these, has been great for me as a person.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •