Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,282,000 Posts!
Poker ForumSmall Stakes NL Hold'em

Do we C-bet dry board or let villain see a card when we hit top pair ?

Results 1 to 5 of 5
  1. #1

    Default Do we C-bet dry board or let villain see a card when we hit top pair ?

    One of the biggest things I am confused about is when to c-bet or bet after the flop in a hand, We bet to get value from worse hands or to bluff villain off better, but lets say we have T9s, we are on BU and raise to 6bb, sb calls and the board comes 2d,6c,Th, We most likely have the best hand against a villain who is looser than average but we dont know if we can bet for value because they might not have much to call , but we dont want a high card to come on the turn and let him take the pot away. So how do we know when to bet and when not too if we don't know that theyve hit or not,, we dont want to keep letting villains see free cards and have chance to catch better pairs but we also want to keep weaker hands in the pot and call
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-23-2020 at 08:06 PM.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,130
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    You want it to be simple, but it's not.
    You want to boil poker down to a set of rules you follow to win monies. That's not going to work above the micros, and wont be ideal then. You can't treat all villains like they have the same strengths and weaknesses. You wouldn't dream of it if you were sitting face to face with 8 very different looking and acting people.
    They're people. They're different.

    There's no correct way to play against the SB. There's the correct way to play against this SB.

    You put this villain on a range, and you speculate how you earn the most or lose the least against this villain, taking various lines.


    There's no correct way to bet the villain on a dry flop. There's only how to best play against this villain on a dry flop.

    Whether or not to C-bet is a function of how villain responds to a C-bet and whether we want our hand against their current range or their range after we C-bet and they call or raise.

    In order to do this, we practice with EV calcs and guessing ranges for various villains, then choose which of those we've practiced with is closest to this situation, and we roll with that.


    Look, I'm about to dump a lot, here. I don't want you to feel overwhelmed, but ... it's overwhelming. Sorry 'bout that.

    The sheer number of questions that you're not asking is overwhelming, let alone the hours and hours of study that answering them implies.
    I'm just going to inject questions into the following as a way of illustrating (is that the right word?) to you how it just can't be simple. It will never be simple.
    Not for you, nor for any of the villains, either.
    You don't have to be perfect at this, not even close. You just have to be better than them at it.

    ***
    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    lets say we have T9s, we are on BU and raise to 6bb
    How many people were in the hand to start with?
    What was the action before you?
    How deep is your stack?
    How deep is the SB's stack?
    How deep is the BB's stack?

    Briefly, how would you characterize these villains' blind defense? Tight? Too tight? Loose? Too loose?
    What is your range to make this bet against these villains playing in the blinds?

    Why did you raise to 6 bb?
    What might be the pros and cons of betting 5- bb or 7+ bb against these villains in the blinds?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    sb calls
    Given your prior answers, what is sb's range?

    If you had bet more or less than 6bb, would the sb call with the same range?

    What if you min-raised - same range or different for SB to call with?
    Does that invite the BB into the pot? Do you want that?

    What if you bet much more like 12bb? What would they call with, then?
    20bb?
    cold shove?

    Which bet size from you gives you the most equity going to the flop?

    What if SB raises?
    Do they have bet-sizing tells?
    What is their range?
    What is your range's response to various raise sizes from SB?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    and the board comes 2d,6c,Th
    Wait...
    What did the BB do? call or fold?
    If they called, what is their range?
    If they had raised, what would be their range?

    What is your response (with your range, not your hand) when BB raises?
    How does your range change to different raise sizes from the BB?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    and the board comes 2d,6c,Th
    Pick your favorite range / scenario from above.
    How much is in the pot, now?
    What is your equity on this board against this villain's range, given this betting line?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    We most likely have the best hand against a villain who is looser than average but we dont know if we can bet for value because they might not have much to call
    Similar questions as above. Given all the options of moves you can make now, which of them gives you the most equity?

    What was Villain's action before it was your turn to decide whether or not to C-bet?

    Did they bet into you? How much?
    What does that mean about their range, now?

    Did they check it?
    What does that mean about their range, now? Is it capped?


    If you check behind, villain's range does not change. Make a note of your equity if you leave villain's range alone.

    If you min-raise, and villain calls, what does that do to his range?
    If he raises back, what is his range?

    If you raise 1/4 PSB, same questions.
    1/2 PSB?
    3/4 PSB?
    full PSB?
    overbet?
    open shove?

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    but we dont want a high card to come on the turn and let him take the pot away.
    Why not?
    Did we forget to calculate that in our equity calcs on the prior street?
    If so, that's where the error lies, not in folding that % of times we calculated we would fold while still making the most +EV line.
    We fold sometimes on later streets after we bet. We have more information now than we did then. We already calculated that a future fold under certain conditions was part of our best line.

    If every other action is -EV, it's always 0 EV to fold. Sometimes the best decision is to lose none.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    So how do we know when to bet and when not too if we don't know that theyve hit or not,
    We're not playing against their hand. We're never playing against their hand.
    They don't even have "a" hand from our perspective. They have a range of possible hands, with varying probabilities, given their history and this hand's betting line.
    We're playing against their range.
    No, we're not even doing that, really.

    We're playing against our (flawed) perception of their range.
    That's the most we can do, and we'll not feel bad for failing to do more.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets
    we dont want to keep letting villains see free cards and have chance to catch better pairs but we also want to keep weaker hands in the pot and call
    We can't do one without the other.
    It's a matter of your equity if they fold now (100% * the value of the pot), vs your equity if they see another card.
    Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down. Bet to maximize the ups and get away from the downs and you're all good.

    You don't know what their cards are. You only know that they would do the same thing with any of XYZ hands, and that those will not all happen with the same frequency.
    Sometimes because of math. There's only 4 ways to make AKs, but 12 ways to make AKo. Only 6 ways to make AA. Fewer on all those when we see one of those cards not in their hand.
    Sometimes because they're fickle. They "mix it up" by sometimes playing some hands and other times not.

    ***
    Everyone loves a wall of text, right?
    *sigh*
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #3
    I understand and appreciate your thorough points. My post was more or less aiming at trying to better understand the basics behind Betting for value versus bluffing versus hand protection. On one hand we always want value when we hit top pair but if its not a face-card for example there could be 2 more streets to come.Sometimes I am checking top pair because I am unsure what kind of worse villain will call with, on the other hand we'd like to protect our top pair and make villain pay to see another card because of the chance it could improve his hand and get him ahead. One of my biggest problems is not knowing if I should bet my pair or not , I understand that part is where all the variables need to be taken into account . Should I just assume if we hit top pair we bet for value most of the time and re-evaluate on the turn at micros? I need basics to right now to stick too . The hand that I made up was only SB calling in a HU pot everyone else folding.Myself and SB both have 100bb. Sorry about the missing info, I don't normally make up lines and type them . Don't even worry about the example I think I got what I needed from you for the most part. I need to work with flopzilla more to understand my equity versus given ranges pre-flop and flop
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-24-2020 at 12:19 AM.
  4. #4
    Generally, you should cbet when you hit the flop, or when you have nothing but your range hits the flop.

    I pretty much always cbet my top pairs, strong flush draws, and open enders. I'll also cbet Axx and Kxx when I have nothing.

    I'm more likely to check middle pairs, gutters and overcards. I'll also check some weaker flush draws and monsters to balance out my range.

    When we flop huge, such as a set or the nuts, it kind of depends. I can definitely slow play, but not if it's an Axx or Kxx flop because I want to bet these flops with my entire range. I'll also cbet if there's a reasonable chance my monster hand can be beaten.

    It's better to try and get value and fail, than to get less value than you could have done. So if you're unsure whether to cbet for value, then just do it. Just pay attention to what people call you with so you can exploit bad players.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Generally, you should cbet when you hit the flop, or when you have nothing but your range hits the flop.

    I pretty much always cbet my top pairs, strong flush draws, and open enders. I'll also cbet Axx and Kxx when I have nothing.

    I'm more likely to check middle pairs, gutters and overcards. I'll also check some weaker flush draws and monsters to balance out my range.

    When we flop huge, such as a set or the nuts, it kind of depends. I can definitely slow play, but not if it's an Axx or Kxx flop because I want to bet these flops with my entire range. I'll also cbet if there's a reasonable chance my monster hand can be beaten.

    It's better to try and get value and fail, than to get less value than you could have done. So if you're unsure whether to cbet for value, then just do it. Just pay attention to what people call you with so you can exploit bad players.
    thank you for this

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •