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Could I have played these hands different, that was also better?

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  1. #1

    Default Could I have played these hands different, that was also better?

    After 4 years of online poker, i finally seem to have found a pool of players with vastly inferior skills at the poker table, mixed with my most recent readings and homework from my library of poker books, that are much easier to play against, as opposed to playing at the "regular" tables, and that's zone.


    On the one hand I could legitimately be on a variance induced heater. On the other hand, which I think is a plausible possibility, given I have been reading a bit here and there about poker more often than I had been, I may be bringing my "A" game to the tables where I hadn't 3, 6, 9, or 12 months ago. I've won so much off these players I don't even really tilt (at the moment) when I get coolered out of a buy in.

    Ok so here are the two big hands I played today.


    Villain is UTG with 300bb in his stack

    Hero is on BTN with effectively 100bb in his stack.

    Random pool of players so absolutely no player-based reads

    I'm dealt AhQh on the BTN.

    UTG opens for 4bb
    MP1 folds
    CO folds

    As BTN, UTG plus his "slightly" unusual raise size, I'm putting him on a stronger hand, with a legitimate possibility of some premium pocket pairs.

    I do not think 3betting in this spot is the best play, my hand flops really well, and if I 3bet, and he comes over the top with a 4bet, I'm put on a very tough decision often leaning towards fold. I think the best course of action is to flat and try to get to see a flop and not give him an opportunity to raise me off my hand.

    I flat

    SB folds
    BB folds

    Pot is 9.5bb going to flop

    Flop comes Ks10sJd

    I basically flopped a very vulnerable stone cold nuts.

    He leads into me for 8bb

    I think for a moment (not slow rolling) that any A, any spade, and Q, and any 9, is going to potentially scare my action away on later streets while I hold the stone cold nuts at the moment.

    I decide the proper move here is to raise, because he very well could have flopped one of the three sets, two pair, or TP + straight draw, and he'll be looking to get the money in anyways before any scare cards hit on turn/river.

    I raise to 22.5bb

    UTG comes over the top for covering me all in for my whole stack. I got 83bb or so left in my stack, obviously, I call.

    Sure enough my initial PF read was correct, he shows up with KK for a set of K's.

    turn was an A, I forget what river was but it was a brick, I take down a 200+bb pot.


    The 2nd hand I had tonight.

    I'm MP1, I have 134bb in my stack, again at a zone table with no player-specific reads.

    Villain is in the BB, with 150bb and essentially has me covered.

    UTG folds
    MP1 (Hero) opens for 3.5bb with QQ
    CO calls 3.5bb
    BTN calls 3.5bb
    SB folds
    BB squeezes to 17.5bb

    Pot is 28bb at this point.

    I read this as a squeeze play. I think if I had a good, but not "premium hand" I was thinking if I was in the BB I would see this as a potential profitable situation for a squeeze play with a PFR'r and 2 callers. While I'm also legitimately running up against hands that I'm dominated by (KK, AA) and coin flipping with (AKo, AKs), I also think there is a legitimate possibility that I still have the best hand at the same time, and he might spazz on a good flop for me (hopefully no A's or K's hit or that will make my post flop decisions much more complicated).

    So anyways, I'm putting him on AK's AQ's, broadways, suited broadways, JJ, 1010, 99, 88 potentially and occasionally suited A's, and even if he has AKo/s I still have the best hand. KK and AA is just a bad cooler I deduce. If I call here the pot is going to be rather large going to flop, so he very well might be pot committed if it goes to flop even if we're both deep stacked.

    TL/DR I put him on a squeeze play.

    I call the additional 14bb

    *edit*
    CO folds
    BTN folds

    Pot is now 42bb going to flop.

    Flop comes 8d4d2c

    Very safe for me. At this point, except for a lot of the extremely unlikely setmines (not very many people squeeze with 44 and 22, for the most part), and an unfortunate cooler from AA or KK, this looks like just about the perfect flop.

    He checks to me on the flop, looks weak (or deceptively weak), I bet 28bb into a 42bb pot. He comes over the top for all of my chips.

    When I call, the pot will be 270bb. I call.

    He shows 99, my read turned out to be correct (in this circumstance). turn and river are bricks, I take down the pot.

    I think maybe my game is improving, or I've been bringing my A game a bit more than usual in part due to my readings, to the tables, unlike most the times I play. How do you guys think I played in these spots?
    Last edited by JimmyS1985; 09-26-2016 at 07:21 PM.
  2. #2
    If Zone poker is anything like zoom the chances of you having a better win rate playing it compared to regular tables is approximately 0%.

    The hands need to be formatted.

    Hand 1 I think you played fine but your reasoning is a bit off. I'd think AQs should be towards the bottom end of your calling range here, it's actually a spot that I think we can play pretty straight forward in with our range as I imagine caring too much about how solid your button play is vs utg raises is pretty unimportant due to the tiny volume this situation happens. The flop smacks both of our ranges really hard so I think playing it aggressively is fine.
    Last edited by Savy; 09-26-2016 at 05:14 AM.
  3. #3
    Hand 2 flatting QQ with two people to act behind you and when we're going to be in pretty bad position post flop is probably pretty awkward. You say you think he could spazz on a low board except with an A or K but he's essentially getting money out of you like he wants to when he has a bit hand postflop for the same reason. You can't think running into AA or KK is an unfortunate cooler when people in that spot have AA or KK a large proportion of the time (period, but especially compared to how much you think they seem to have it).

    Flop is just a mess from villains perspective, I suppose what you did is ok. You should concentrate more on common positions than big pots in positions that don't happen very often.
  4. #4
    First hand is super standard, nothing wrong calling pre flop. I think 3betting is wasting a decent button hand because villain will rarely call, instead folding or raising. In fact when he does just flat call, I hate life even more than when I'm raised. Unless this is the flop, of course.

    I do not think 3betting in this spot is the best play, my hand flops really well, and if I 3bet, and he comes over the top with a 4bet, I'm put on a very tough decision often leaning towards fold.
    If you 3b AQ on BU and face a 4b from UTG vs anyone who ins't a drooling idiot, then you don't have a "very tough decision", you have a "very easy fold".

    Second hand, I think you played it fine. I know it's awkward since we have two more people to act, but neither of them 3b our original open, so I'm pretty happy to see a 4bet from behind us because it's likely to be spew. I'm certainly not folding this, otherwise BB can squeeze any two cards profitably against me here. I wouldn't hate a 4b here either, but I think readless I'm gonna play it safe and take a flop, see how he reacts.

    And yes you need to post formatted hands. I mean second hand, what did the two callers do after you called the squeeze? Are we HU at flop? 3handed? 4handed? This makes a big difference, both in how we play the hand, and in how we expect BB to play the hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    Poker is a mental rollercoaster and the chances are that you're on a heater but playing your A game because of it. I know this because that's exactly the way I go. But there will be days when it doesn't go your way and you're going to lose a few BI no matter what. It's how you handle those sessions that matter the most. That said:

    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    If Zone poker is anything like zoom the chances of you having a better win rate playing it compared to regular tables is approximately 0%.
    This is 100% true. That's not to say that fast fold poker isn't fun and a great way to get volume in though, which you can analyse later and use to improve (as long as you're not getting crushed).

    Hand 1: totally fine and standard. You're both correctly going broke here. Have a think about reciprocality though: if you both go broke in this spot, you both lose in the long term to the rake. You only win in the long run if you don't go broke in a spot villain will, or if you make a better value bet in a spot villain won't. This hand really is one of the purest examples of poker variance, along with KK vs AA in blind battles with regs, and coming out either the right or wrong side of it should be ignored in determining if you're a profitable player. Hope this makes sense.

    Hand 2: tough spot with TT-QQ. His sizing is so big and bad that my standard assumption is that his holding doesn't like calls. That usually means AK, weaker suited aces and JJ, which all have decent equity against QQ. This may be a good spot to use timing tells to your advantage.

    I think a good idea in this spot is to drill into your database and see what villain's show up with in these spots. I don't hate or love a reraise, call or a low variance fold in this spot. I lean towards a call as we don't need to go broke in a bad spot and I don't think the players behind will come along for this sizing. I expect most villains to play face up more than 100bb deep at the micros too. 4bet folding small might be okay, as I'd expect all but the biggest maniacs to only get in KK+ facing a 4bet with these stacks, but we are getting more towards being committed to go with it.

    The fact he has 99 pre and chk jams flop is just a car crash of a line that probably means he's a terrible maniac and/or tilting hard.
  6. #6
    This idea that zoom is tougher seems like nonsense to me. Why is it tougher? Is everyone playing perfectly? Of course not. People are playing tighter... that is, they are deviating from a perfect range more so than compared to regular poker. That, I would have thought, makes it more exploitable, not less.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This idea that zoom is tougher seems like nonsense to me. Why is it tougher? Is everyone playing perfectly? Of course not. People are playing tighter... that is, they are deviating from a perfect range more so than compared to regular poker. That, I would have thought, makes it more exploitable, not less.
    The design of the game means that on average people tend to play more correctly than they otherwise would because they fold a lot more. You make a lot less money from bad tight players than you do bad loose ones.

    This is pretty well backed up by the winrates shown on both zoom and regular tables.
  8. #8
    You make a lot less money from bad tight players than you do bad loose ones.
    Yeah ok when you look at it like this, you're right.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Yeah, the fast fold games are tougher. People aren't so wide pre and also not inclined to hang on to 2nd pair facing barrels, compared to somebody that hasn't flopped a pair for ten minutes and can't wait to pick off what they think is a bluff. Weaker players also go broke faster in a zoom pool. I'd be surprised if somebody depositing 20 bucks on a Friday night to play 10nl zoom lasts more than 20 minutes.
  10. #10
    Hand 1- Standard. Only question here is to raise or call flop and raise is fine. Cooler.

    Hand 2 - 4b or call pre is prob ok. Flop is ok but I think once he checks you should bet smaller. It's a dry board and if you're ahead you're WAY ahead (he likely at most has 6 outs). Also the smaller you bet the wider he'll probably continue (via jam or call)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Hand 1- Standard. Only question here is to raise or call flop and raise is fine. Cooler.

    Hand 2 - 4b or call pre is prob ok. Flop is ok but I think once he checks you should bet smaller. It's a dry board and if you're ahead you're WAY ahead (he likely at most has 6 outs). Also the smaller you bet the wider he'll probably continue (via jam or call)
    Thanks for all the tips everybody, this is why I love this forum so much unlike other forums (like twoplustwo or cardschat) because you guys skip the BS and just get down to the brass tacks on how to improve my play at the tables.
  12. #12
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    I'd like to add on H2 that i hope you took notes and will adjust your play vs villain. In future spots, beeing IP and HU i' ll flat more QQ+ vs him since he showed he can spazz, this play will add variance but also increase profit vs the standard 4b play w/ QQ+. I will 4b/call AK vs him , even though he might continue just w/ AK,QQ+ , hands he fold to 4b + times we win the AI is far more profitabile then flatting the 3b pre or 4b/fold.

    You just have to prepare yourself for variance and do not tilt. This the way i would adjust my play, but theres room for improvment so i ' d happy to hear some other opinions
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...

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