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Check ranges

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  1. #1
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    Default Check ranges

    Interested in thoughts on ranges for all streets. What are you/should I be raising, calling, or folding with? I think the flop is a mistake, but given how it went range on turn is the same as PFR OTB range.


    NL Holdem $0.02(BB)
    CO ($2.40)
    HERO ($3.80)
    SB ($3.31)
    BB ($2)
    HJ ($1.09)


    Dealt to Hero: XX


    HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $0.05, SB Calls $0.04, BB Folds


    Flop ($0.12): 5 J 5
    SB Checks, HERO Checks


    Turn ($0.12): 5 J 5 2
    SB Bets $0.09, HERO Calls $0.09


    River ($0.30): 5 J 5 2 J
    SB Bets $0.22, HERO ???



    Only relevant hand prior to this was 2 hands prior when villain raised 74 UTG+1 then checked behind J5T flop, called hero's 1/2 pot bet on 5 turn and raised/called ai on 9 river losing to hero's FH. That was heros first hand at table.
    Last edited by bjsaust; 07-28-2018 at 02:14 AM.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  2. #2
    Probably opening the button with something like

    22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o (54.59%)

    On the flop I'm c-betting a lot because by default villains fold far too much to c-bets.

    QQ+, TT-66, AQs+, ATs-A6s, A4s-A2s, KQs, KTs-K6s, K4s-K2s, AQo+, ATo-A6o, A4o-A2o, KQo, KTo-K6o, K4o-K2o, AdJs, AdJc, AhJd, AhJs, AhJc, AsJd, AsJc, AcJd, AcJs, Ad5h, Ad5c, Ah5c, As5h, As5c, Ac5h, KdJs, KdJc, KhJd, KhJs, KhJc, KsJd, KsJc, KcJd, KcJs, Kd5h, Kd5c, Kh5c, Ks5h, Ks5c, Kc5h, QdJs, QdJc, QhJd, QhJs, QhJc, QsJd, QsJc, QcJd, QcJs, AdJd, AsJs, AcJc, KdJd, KsJs, KcJc, QdJd, QsJs, QcJc, JdTh, JdTs, JdTc, JsTd, JsTh, JsTc, JcTd, JcTh, JcTs, Jd9h, Jd9s, Jd9c, Js9d, Js9h, Js9c, Jc9d, Jc9h, Jc9s, Jd8h, Jd8s, Jd8c, Js8d, Js8h, Js8c, Jc8d, Jc8h, Jc8s, QdTd, QhTh, QsTs, JdTd, JsTs, JcTc, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qs9s, Jd9d, Js9s, Jc9c, Qd8d, Qh8h, Qs8s, Jd8d, Js8s, Jc8c, Qd7d, Qh7h, Qs7s, Jd7d, Js7s, Jc7c, Qd6d, Qh6h, Qs6s, Jd6d, Js6s, Jc6c, Ah5h, Ac5c, Kh5h, Kc5c, Qh5h, Qc5c, 6h5h, 6c5c, Qd4d, Qh4h, Qs4s, Jd4d, Js4s, Jc4c, Qd3d, Qh3h, Qs3s, Jd3d, Js3s, Jc3c, Qd2d, Qh2h, Qs2s, Jd2d, Js2s, Jc2c (75.25% of my preflop range)

    This is any quads, trips, two pair (overpairs, Jx and 66+), any ace, any king, any Qx with a bdfd, I'm probably not betting JJ because let villain have a little rope.

    So the only thing I'd have on the turn that is a strong made hand would be 22, JJ which I'd be happy flatting and letting villain continue to bet on the river knowing that I'm pretty safe.
    Opportunities knock
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by bjsaust View Post
    but given how it went range on turn is the same as PFR OTB range.
    This isn't true unless you're checking 100% of your range?
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  4. #4
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    Correct, except I wasn't thinking clearly at the time, and in this particular case I was checking my entire range. In reality I should have a fairly low check behind range here, but at the time I played this flop the same way I would a JJ5 flop. So yeah, hand is a bit strange as played, but for range check, consider turn to still hold all my PFR range.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  5. #5
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    So the only thing I'd have on the turn that is a strong made hand would be 22, JJ which I'd be happy flatting and letting villain continue to bet on the river knowing that I'm pretty safe.
    But are they the only hands you're calling turn with? Is that assuming you c-bet, or as played? Do you have 0 raise range on turn? What about river?
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bjsaust View Post
    But are they the only hands you're calling turn with? Is that assuming you c-bet, or as played? Do you have 0 raise range on turn? What about river?
    That's if I were to check the flop with my ranges posted. If I checked I probably don't float the turn very often at all and I'm never raising. River I can raise any really strong hands if villain bets into me again. Which is like 6 combos and as a result I should really throw in some trash too as villain definitely has a b, b/f range on the river.
    Opportunities knock
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  7. #7
    I do actually struggle to range people when they flat the SB it's a bit of a strange position that I should really look into. What range do you put him on when he flats pre? Do you think he's donking any of that range? Villain has plenty of 5x and Jx, maybe discount AJ and KJ a little I assume, probably not all that often does he have JJ+, things like 66-TT maybe slightly discounting some of the stronger hands there. Bar that his betting range as played on the turn is mostly FDs I'd assume which can make up a large part of his range.

    That's all guessing though.
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  8. #8
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    I don't think he ever has JJ+ when he calls in the SB pre. Both because I expect him to look to be aggressive based on taking what to him probably felt like a tough beat, and just in general at 2NL they seem to overvalue mid-large PPs. He can definately have a J or a 5 though. A lot of QJ, TJ, KJ, 9J type hands, and 56 for sure. Given he raise 74s utg+1 earlier, it's probably ok to include stuff like 57s, 45s, stuff like that which maybe you'd normally discount.

    I haven't taken the time to run ranges, but I tend to weigh blind calls at 2NL towards small-mid PPs (and some mid they'd 3bet) and suited hands of probably a wider variety than they should. They'll have broadways too, but tend to 3bet some I'd be more likely to just call with. I'm kind of shocked if I see an AT+ hand from a SB call.

    Like you though I tend to put a lot of suited hands in his range. I definately think he'll semi-bluff any draws on the turn and expect him to continue betting the river with them. There's some chance he's just stone cold bluffing, but if I was putting a range in I wouldn't include a lot of them. One thing I'm not sure about is how thin he'll try to value-bet, and from what I've seen so far at this level I think it's possible he bluffs with hands that he should probably check for showdown value. If he has a 5 or J or some other big hand, I'm not sure how much he's thinking about what I'd call with, or if he just thinks 'big hand, bet!'.

    My thinking at the time on the river, was that if I only called with my monster hands (or raised) then I'm probably folding too much, but that might reflect more on my turn calling range than my river range.
    Last edited by bjsaust; 07-28-2018 at 08:19 AM.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  9. #9
    If we are assuming we are flatting the turn with all our monster hands then I think it's to fold too much in a spot you basically never get to ever again vs this villain. Call any 5s, raise any Js and 22 well obviously raise 55 on the river too is probably fine. You can fold out the rest imo.
    Opportunities knock
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  10. #10
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    Ok. Lets say we're villain in this hand, and we called with 56s pre (he didn't, but lets say he did). I think we probably play all 3 streets pretty much like this right? What happens if button shoves river? What if he makes it like $0.90?
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bjsaust View Post
    Ok. Lets say we're villain in this hand, and we called with 56s pre (he didn't, but lets say he did). I think we probably play all 3 streets pretty much like this right? What happens if button shoves river? What if he makes it like $0.90?
    I general I don't think btn has all that much Jx in his range when it plays out like this, if he makes it 90 we call if he shoves we fold. There are some Jx and some busted draws/overcards etc that be turned into a bluff on the river.
    Opportunities knock
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  12. #12
    oskar's Avatar
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    I don't think I have any hands that I check this flop with, that fold that river, except for 22.
    I guess you missed a vbet with an underpair and now your spot sucks.

    I think you can vbet A high on this flop, and you can bluff all your trash and easily get equity. Don't assume people realize that this is the dryest possible board. The only hands I check with are backdoor FD's that I don't want to get in sticky situations with, and Jx blockers hoping he'll catch up.
    The way the hand runs out, he should be betting his entire range and you should probably be folding anything but 5x, Jx because you can't assume that he knows that.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #13
    bjsaust's Avatar
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    I dunno, it's a weird spot because of the mistake on the flop, but surely that river helps us call right? Sure it looks scary, but anything we beat on the turn we still beat, and now it's even less likely he has a J for hands like 66-TT and A high. Obviously if we have a draw on the turn it's different, but the rest of our range just looked better didn't it? Or are we assuming he has few bluffs on that river?

    If so, is our decision much different on the turn? Would you call the turn with TT but fold on the river for instance?
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Probably opening the button with something like

    22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o (54.59%)

    On the flop I'm c-betting a lot because by default villains fold far too much to c-bets.
    Going to be very difficult to defend this button range against wide 3 bettors in the blinds, but probably fine until given reason to tighten up.

    What might be good adjustments when villains fold too much vs cbets and have you done any experimenting?
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    Going to be very difficult to defend this button range against wide 3 bettors in the blinds, but probably fine until given reason to tighten up.

    What might be good adjustments when villains fold too much vs cbets and have you done any experimenting?
    Yeah tbh in general unless people are playing back a lot I still think we make a tonne of money opening really wide because even aggro regs defend their blinds horribly they just think that 3betting a lot is the solution but they are still folding far too much but yeah I would obviously tighten up.

    If villains are folding too much to c-bets open wider, c-bet at a higher frequency with smaller bets. Move some stronger hands into my checking range. I haven't played about with it much though and other frequencies matter too. Some regs love to go mad when you don't c-bet.
    Opportunities knock
    was really just the pizza man

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