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Bluff catch or fold the river?

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  1. #1

    Default Bluff catch or fold the river?

    Villain had 3-bet me from his BU 3 times now in the past 10-20 hands.
    2 hands earlier I woke up with AA and he had raised from UTG with 88 I 3-bet he called flop came
    775 rainbow, flop went check check , turn was a 6 of spades leaving 2 spades on board, villain bet double pot ($.70)
    I can over top with $1.35 all in and he called showing 88 river didn’t help him. Idk what to label him at this point but I don’t think he’s playing optimal that way with 88.


    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    PokerStars
    6 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    Stacks:
    UTG ($2) 100bb
    UTG+1 Hero ($2.82) 141bb
    CO ($0.62) 31bb
    BTN ($3.28) 164bb
    SB ($3.36) 168bb
    BB ($2.71) 136bb

    Pre-Flop: (0.03, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
    1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 3 folds, BB raises to $0.19, Hero calls $0.13
    Flop: ($0.39, 2 players)

    BB checks, Hero bets $0.19, BB calls $0.19

    Turn: ($0.77, 2)
    BB checks, Hero checks River: ($0.77, 2)

    BB goes all-in $2.33, Hero....?

    This is his 3rd time 3-betting my BB raise from his BU in a short span. I decide to call preflop I give him 88+,AT+,KQ,KJs,QJs,JTs

    Flop comes he checks I bet my T I don’t assume he has an ace it’s definitely in his range but not always. He calls and on turn another ace comes and he checks to me, I don’t really put him on the A now because it’s slightly less likely also with draws on board I would expect him to bet it. I decide to check because I didn’t know what he had and don’t want to get checkraised we do have a pair and maybe we can check to river. River comes and he shoves all in, He’s already proven he can overplay middle pairs also a lot of busted draws on board. I have a bluff catcher at this point and I need to be good half the time? Maybe he has KQcc, KJcc , JQ, ?
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-25-2020 at 12:33 PM.
  2. #2
    hmm I opened up Equilab now that I'm at my computer and if we give his river this range : TT+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,AQo+ we only have 26% equity , he has 2 hands we beat, KQs, and KJs with a total of 7 combos, idk I feel like because the hand was checked through on the turn we missed a chunk of info we needed to even entertain the idea of calling this river bet, does that seem fair? If I give him an optimistic range of : 88+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,AQo+,KQo ( which is similar but includes 88,99, and KQ, we are given 50% EQ.

    If i give him this pessimistic range: TT+,ATs+,QJs,JTs,KcQc,KcJc,AQo+ ( even including JT overplayed) we are given 17% EQ, which is clear fold.
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Villain had 3-bet me from his BU 3 times now in the past 10-20 hands.
    Explain that one to me. His BTN is your BB, right?
    Are you getting 3-bet in the BB that much?

    2 hands earlier I woke up with AA and he had raised from UTG with 88 I 3-bet he called flop came
    775 rainbow, flop went check check
    Do you think checking IP is your best line, here?

    It's hard to imagine AA don't represent the top of your range, here.
    AK is worth betting here most of the time, so why not better hands?

    You can profitably b/c any A in your pre-flop range here when it's HU OTF and you're IP against most players.

    turn was a 6 of spades leaving 2 spades on board, villain bet double pot ($.70)
    I can over top with $1.35 all in and he called showing 88 river didn’t help him. Idk what to label him at this point but I don’t think he’s playing optimal that way with 88.
    Is fine. If you're not folding to the 2x PSB, then you need to ship over the top.
    Doesn't mean you shouldn't have folded, though. Probably, but you haven't calculated your optimal line, here. Just taken notes on a single instance. That's great for the table, but study it away from the tables by putting a range on each action and all that stuff.


    ***
    In the posted hand.
    Fold PRE. EZ game.

    As played, fold River. EZ game. Not even close.

    Villain wants a call OTR, especially given your history. He knows you can call big bets with less than the nuts. He wants you to call this river bet. He's got at least an A in his hand and can beat a bare A in yours almost every time, here.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    This is his 3rd time 3-betting my BB raise from his BU in a short span.
    What?

    Hero is UTG+1, not BB in this hand.
    Villain is BB, not BU.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I mean. You can play QTs UTG+1 6-handed. It's just easier to play JTs or 77,66 instead of KTs and QTs when OOP, IMO.
    The value of any of those hands is going to be similar to a top player, and not really for lesser players.

    Play to your strengths. Small PP's are pretty easy to play post, and if all you do is set mine, you'll probably do fine.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #6
    ok thanks for the info, I see what your saying. I ended up calling villain on the hand and he shows KK, I had been playing for about 10hrs by this point I was pretty tired and kind of talked myself into thinking he missed with KQs, KJs, I went bust this hand I reloaded 25$ dollars today and I plan on getting off once Im burnt out , should we fold most of the time unless we have the absolute nuts when villain does stuff like this I guess its neveer really a bluff right?
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    What?

    Hero is UTG+1, not BB in this hand.
    Villain is BB, not BU.
    ok sorry, this hand hero was UTG but the last two times he 3-bet me was when all folded around to him he raised on BU and I would re-raise then he would re-raise me , is that a 4bet? idk thats what he did 2 times so I was getting annoyed, both other times I folded good hands, AJ, and the other time was KJs I think , I dont like calling heavy bets oop
  8. #8
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    He bet ~3x PSB OTR. Your pot odds are 3/(3+1+3) = 3/7 ~= 43%

    You can call with anything that beats at least 43% of his range.
    I don't think QT is in that category on this board, but it could be.
    If so, it'd drive me mad. I don't handle the variance well, and when a villain forces me to play a high variance game, it stresses me out more quickly than other villains. For me, this means my best move is probably to switch tables. Sure, I can spend the time and effort learning to have the better edge in practical coin flips against ultra-LAG players... or I can just focus on the things that I'm currently studying and not get side-tracked.

    It's not that I don't want to learn to beat that villain. It's that they don't represent the top of the bell curve of players I face. If I study the most common situations, then I can increase my edge against the most common situations first. Later, I can work on dealing with wide ranges, but for now, I just want to focus on learning the "cores" of ranges. Later, those cores will be the foundation from which the LAG ranges are built.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  9. #9
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    ok sorry, this hand hero was UTG but the last two times he 3-bet me was when all folded around to him he raised on BU and I would re-raise then he would re-raise me , is that a 4bet? idk thats what he did 2 times so I was getting annoyed, both other times I folded good hands, AJ, and the other time was KJs I think , I dont like calling heavy bets oop
    PRE, the blinds count as the first bet. So the BTN open is a raise, and your BB raise is a 3-bet. His 2nd raise is a 4-bet.

    On other streets, the blinds don't confuse the count of bets.


    2 times is not a pattern. 5 times is a pattern.

    Surely you've been sitting at a table and just happened by luck that every time you had QQ+ pre, it was against the same preflop raiser. That's just card variance, and not personal.

    Try not to assume a villain is picking on you personally just because they raise you a couple-few times in a row. They could just have hands.


    That said, if they're 4-betting your BB raises more than 5 times in one session, you can start calling them down and pushing back at them wider. Or avoiding that preflop 3-bet except when you're really ready to put in a 5-bet shove. Though, I think you end up playing much tighter than necessary, you'll probably still clean this villain up by always having the good when the money goes in PRE.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  10. #10
    Thank you this really cleared up my confusion about 3-bets and 4-bets completely that feels good. I will keep the picking on you concept in mind I feel like that is one of my weaknesses sometimes villains do this to me and I get very suspicious after I make a few disciplined folded I end up trying to call their bluffs and it’s never the right time for me to do so, kind of like a tilted play because of folding solid hands so
  11. #11
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    On the last thing, it sounds like you're trying to identify the exact cards a villain is holding before they show them to you. That's an unreasonable standard, and you'll only stress yourself out with it.

    Remember, you're not trying to beat villain's hand at any time. You're only trying to beat their range. When they bet, they could have the goods, or it could be a bluff. You can't know. All you can know is roughly how often it's value and how often it's bluff.

    You're never really putting them on a bluff or a value hand. You're only gauging how much of their range is value vs. bluff in any situation.

    Just because they're value-betting doesn't mean they're ahead, either. Maybe they value bet AK OOP on a paired board when you hit trips. Just because they're value-betting against your range, doesn't mean they're ahead in the hand. Same goes for you.

    When we talk pot odds, and we do a calc. we're not trying to put villains on exact hands and only call when we're ahead.
    Let's say the pot odds are 25% and you think you have 30% equity. You call. Even though you expect to lose 70% of the time, you call.

    That's how you make money in poker. Not by somehow magically knowing when they have the 70% and when they have the 30%.
    Don't kick yourself over the outcome of any single hand. It's barely relevant.


    What's important is things like where you said

    I plan on getting off once Im burnt out
    That's a huge lesson to learn.
    No one does their best work when they're dead tired, or pissed off.
    When you're not at full mental capacity, you cannot hope to outsmart people in a game based on observation and reaction.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    On the last thing, it sounds like you're trying to identify the exact cards a villain is holding before they show them to you. That's an unreasonable standard, and you'll only stress yourself out with it.

    Remember, you're not trying to beat villain's hand at any time. You're only trying to beat their range. When they bet, they could have the goods, or it could be a bluff. You can't know. All you can know is roughly how often it's value and how often it's bluff.

    You're never really putting them on a bluff or a value hand. You're only gauging how much of their range is value vs. bluff in any situation.

    Just because they're value-betting doesn't mean they're ahead, either. Maybe they value bet AK OOP on a paired board when you hit trips. Just because they're value-betting against your range, doesn't mean they're ahead in the hand. Same goes for you.

    When we talk pot odds, and we do a calc. we're not trying to put villains on exact hands and only call when we're ahead.
    Let's say the pot odds are 25% and you think you have 30% equity. You call. Even though you expect to lose 70% of the time, you call.

    That's how you make money in poker. Not by somehow magically knowing when they have the 70% and when they have the 30%.
    Don't kick yourself over the outcome of any single hand. It's barely relevant.


    What's important is things like where you said


    That's a huge lesson to learn.
    No one does their best work when they're dead tired, or pissed off.
    When you're not at full mental capacity, you cannot hope to outsmart people in a game based on observation and reaction.
    Where did I mention I magically knew what cards were in his hand?


    “Do you think checking IP is your best line, here?

    It's hard to imagine AA don't represent the top of your range, here.
    AK is worth betting here most of the time, so why not better hands?

    You can profitably b/c any A in your pre-flop range here when it's HU OTF and you're IP against most players.”

    I had a hard time thinking he hit that board so I chose not to bet for value , the hand worked out for me .


    “Is fine. If you're not folding to the 2x PSB, then you need to ship over the top.
    Doesn't mean you shouldn't have folded, though. Probably, but you haven't calculated your optimal line, here. Just taken notes on a single instance. That's great for the table, but study it away from the tables by putting a range on each action and all that stuff.”

    We are in micros most players are not thinking about anything but their holdings. My optimal line was to shove overtop it was an easy play. I don’t need the absolute nuts every time to make profit against terrible players


    “Villain wants a call OTR, especially given your history. He knows you can call big bets with less than the nuts. He wants you to call this river bet. He's got at least an A in his hand and can beat a bare A in yours almost every time, here.”

    Call big bets with less than the nuts? I didn’t need the nuts to make that call he had pocket 88 I had AA on a 775 board, I would consider that a pretty Nutted hand... like I said you don’t need a straight flush or full house to call some idiot at micros who’s shoving all in on the turn with an open ender Anne pair of 88
  13. #13
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Where did I mention I magically knew what cards were in his hand?
    You didn't say that, but you said this

    I get very suspicious after I make a few disciplined folded I end up trying to call their bluffs and it’s never the right time for me to do so, kind of like a tilted play because of folding solid hands so
    Which makes it sound like you think when you call their line, and it's not a bluff, that you shouldn't have called.
    Whether or not you win that hand doesn't make it a good or bad call.
    It's the long run that matters.

    Sorry if I misunderstood.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  14. #14
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Also
    I misread villain's river bet in this one. I'm surprised he bet KK like that, but given how wide you called... maybe it wasn't a bad play at those stakes.

    It's all about knowing your villains. I don't know yours, other than that they're terrible. The specifics about how each one is terrible is hard to guess at.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  15. #15
    This is the worst flop bet I've seen you post. Aggro villain 3bets and then checks ATx. He's doing one of three things... check/raising, check/calling, or check/folding. Give him a range for each action, and see how you shape up against each range.

    This is the world's easiest flop check. And when he spazz jams the river, we've got a very easy fold. This looks like 66, A6, or even JJ-KK who has correctly put you on a ten.

    Also, bet your AA on 775, especially against fish.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    I mean, cbet your AA on any flop against everyone. The only flop I'm never cbetting with AA is AAx.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is the worst flop bet I've seen you post. Aggro villain 3bets and then checks ATx. He's doing one of three things... check/raising, check/calling, or check/folding. Give him a range for each action, and see how you shape up against each range.

    This is the world's easiest flop check. And when he spazz jams the river, we've got a very easy fold. This looks like 66, A6, or even JJ-KK who has correctly put you on a ten.

    Also, bet your AA on 775, especially against fish.

    how is this the worst flop bet you've seen me post? your entitled to your own opinion but its not bad, I said the guy has been 3-betting frequently I'm not assuming he has Ax here, he could have any combination of facecards, KQ,KJs,QJ,he has Ax in his range but we flopped a pair a bet here is fine, if he re-raised we can let it go assuming he did have Ax. We are playing micros man these guys are not intelligent. look how he played his hand ffs,it was a bad river call but w.e thats why I posted it to learn from it , and I have. I don't like the check behind on the flop and letting any suited Face-cards get a free look at the turn .
  18. #18
    It's bad because we can't really hope to get called by anything worse. Ok maybe a gutter, assuming he doesn't bet those on the flop. But even those are in decent shape against us, KJ in particular. He could have JTs or maybe even calls a bet with 88/99, but that's getting optimistic. He certainly can have JJ-KK which he just wants to check/call, and he could be planning to check/raise a flush draw, which is disgusting for us.

    I feel like the best result for us on the flop when we make this bet is that we get folds, and that means we've turned our hand into a bluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #19
    The "we cant hope to not get called by anything worse", doesnt apply to micros, people are morons...we are not playing against people with solid gameplay or playing proper hands look how this idiot played KK, ??!! he shoved it on the river and prayed for a payday, the only reason I obliged was because of all his checks and his previous bad play in the past hands. It was a dumb river call Im not defending that but if we saying we cant be called by worse then why are we betting with AA on the 755 flop ?? your contradicting yourself . Even if we give him JJ+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,AJo+,KJo+,QJo We are ahead of some stuff, ASSUMING he checks nutted hands with 2 clubs and draws on board which most good players will probrably not do ...and thats giving a micro player a legitimate range where most players are playing worse, some even play weak pockets this way preflop, we might not get called by worse but we dont have a strong enough hand imo to play further I wanted the pot on the flop.
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-28-2020 at 05:46 PM.
  20. #20
    The "we cant hope to not get called by anything worse", doesnt apply to micros, people are morons.
    This is true. But there comes a point where your value bets will be too thin.

    if we saying we cant be called by worse then why are we betting with AA on the 755 flop ?
    We can expect to get called by worse on 775 when we have AA.
    22-44, 66, 88-KK, A5s 65s 68s, maybe AK AQ AJ... that's a lot of hands, and that's conservative, because more Ax might call a flop bet.

    ATx in a 3bet pot when we have QT... it's completely different. There's not much we beat and lots that beats us.

    I wouldn't mind this bet so much if you were actively trying to get him to fold JJ-KK. It would still be ambitious, but at least you would know it's a bluff and not value.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #21
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    @ D-Bets
    You came here asking for help because you want to learn how to crush the micros.

    If you're here to now tell us how you're crushing the micros, then I couldn't be happier for you.

    However, if you just had a bad day, and now you're being snarky with people who have only been kind to you, well... I get it.
    Not the coolest move, but I've been there, too.

    We're not perfect and we're not poker experts, just people who enjoy the game are are happy to talk about what we know.
    Obv. you can call us out when we're wrong about something, and you're welcome to be openly frustrated with anything, including me.

    I'm not telling you you can't post if you're frustrated. I'm just looking out for you. Your tone seems off and you seem frustrated.


    Hope you feel better, man.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    @ D-Bets
    You came here asking for help because you want to learn how to crush the micros.

    If you're here to now tell us how you're crushing the micros, then I couldn't be happier for you.

    However, if you just had a bad day, and now you're being snarky with people who have only been kind to you, well... I get it.
    Not the coolest move, but I've been there, too.

    We're not perfect and we're not poker experts, just people who enjoy the game are are happy to talk about what we know.
    Obv. you can call us out when we're wrong about something, and you're welcome to be openly frustrated with anything, including me.

    I'm not telling you you can't post if you're frustrated. I'm just looking out for you. Your tone seems off and you seem frustrated.


    Hope you feel better, man.

    I'm not the one being snarky, I've been nothing but nice to you guys, I thanked you very much for the help you gave me I was very grateful and sincere about the help but now you guys are saying things that are douchey, "That's how you make money in poker. Not by somehow magically knowing when they have the 70% and when they have the 30%." And you've said a few other things I didn't like reading and ong says in this post "This is the worst flop bet I've seen you post." There is nicer ways to say things without belittling people.nobodies perfect and I came here for help I don't like these types of comments , I am posting poor handplay for people to see and critique it takes alot to accept criticsm from stranger constantly and I assume you guys know , If I was to cosntantly critique somebodys work I would use words that would not come close to offending them . critism should be given in a nice manner so it does'nt hurt their feelings or piss them off agreed?
  23. #23
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I don't agree. I think you're taking things more personally today than the other days you've posted.

    Ong didn't insult you. It's not an insult to say you did something bad IF you actually did the thing. It would be an insult to say, "you did this. You're bad." but that's not what he said.

    We all do dumb things. You're here as an open admission that you'd like to learn to do fewer dumb things in poker.

    Try not to take it personally when someone points out a dumb thing you did.
    That's why you're here, after all.


    As for the 70/30 thing: I'll keep trying to find a new way to say what you're not hearing until I say it in a way that you hear it.
    You can call and lose and still be confident that it was the right call.
    Just because they have a hand in their range that beats you doesn't mean what you did was -EV.
    etc.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't agree. I think you're taking things more personally today than the other days you've posted.

    Ong didn't insult you. It's not an insult to say you did something bad IF you actually did the thing. It would be an insult to say, "you did this. You're bad." but that's not what he said.

    We all do dumb things. You're here as an open admission that you'd like to learn to do fewer dumb things in poker.

    Try not to take it personally when someone points out a dumb thing you did.
    That's why you're here, after all.


    As for the 70/30 thing: I'll keep trying to find a new way to say what you're not hearing until I say it in a way that you hear it.
    You can call and lose and still be confident that it was the right call.
    Just because they have a hand in their range that beats you doesn't mean what you did was -EV.
    etc.
    Dude its rude to say that stuff, telling me I did dumb stuff? wtf? who tf are you to talk to me like that? I'm doing my best and I'm doing all I know how to do, its not dumb. There are nicer ways to say things, " This is the worst flop bet I've seen you post" could have been said as " this is not the best flop I've seen you post" see how you said the same thing but in a less offensive way? If you guys can't talk to me with humane respect then I'll quit posting , I don't need to take shit from anyone and in real life I don't allow people to talk to me with disrespect.
  25. #25
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I mean... if your argument is that he didn't pander to your feelings, and that's too much of a cost for the value you're getting here, then it was nice meeting you. Best wishes.

    If you can let your feelings be your own business and admit that we all do dumb things and sometimes need someone to take the time and call us out on those things, then I look forward to conversing more.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  26. #26
    I don't give a fuck if I hurt your feelings. I don't intend to offend anyone, but I'm not going to walk on egg shells because someone might be sensitive. Your bet was bad, I said so. If you don't like people using that kind of language when you ask for opinions, then I would advise you get off the internet.

    People are too easily insulted. That isn't my problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't give a fuck if I hurt your feelings. I don't intend to offend anyone, but I'm not going to walk on egg shells because someone might be sensitive. Your bet was bad, I said so. If you don't like people using that kind of language when you ask for opinions, then I would advise you get off the internet.

    People are too easily insulted. That isn't my problem.
    hahaha. That's your opinion , Your a moderator on a dead forum , I wonder why? cause you talk however you want to people. It's not called walking on eggshells its called talking to people with respect and your showing you have none, in the real world there could be consequences for disrespecting people.Its simple be nice.If this is how you talk I suggest you don't leave your house much or your gunna run into problems with people who don't like your mouth, then again.... I bet you know better and don't open it like this besides on the internet.lets see a picture of you I bet it would be entertaining.
  28. #28
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You're the one toe-ing the line, here, DonkeyBets

    If this is how you talk I suggest you don't leave your house much or your gunna run into problems with people who don't like your mouth, then again.... I bet you know better and don't open it like this besides on the internet.lets see a picture of you I bet it would be entertaining.
    No one's making personal comments, here, but you.

    Knock it off.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  29. #29
    You don't have the temperament for poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  30. #30
    lets see a picture of you I bet it would be entertaining.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You don't have the temperament for poker.

    I'm sorry ong bonga , I would appreciate if you could still help me with my anaylsis and hand history threads that I upload. Your input is valuable and I don't want any hard feelings, I will try to take your criticism in a better fashion.
  32. #32
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  33. #33
    Thanks, I appreciate the apology.

    I could've handled it better.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Thanks, I appreciate the apology.

    I could've handled it better.
    No its fine I think there was nothing wrong with what you said. What you said about the hand was true and I'm happy you said it . I'm not here to have people appraise my every move but rather to have people point out my mistakes so I can learn from them. At the time when I posted this hand and few others I was watching a You-tuber who in his videos, was talking about playing basic poker. This You-tuber was making poker seem simple by basically betting heavy against fishy players when you have a good hand and making fish pay the maximum price to see each card (when you have a good hand to do so),by playing that way you will gain the most money from your good hands. However he wasn't really speaking much about the complexities of the game or the other thought processes that go into a hand when you bet, and that is where I got kind of lost. He was boiling the game down to a very basic level to get value from worse players who are holding worse hands and I liked his approach because it made things seem simpler and made poker seem easier, but when I tried applying these things to my games I wasn't always having the success he seemed to be having in his videos at the micros , I stopped thinking about ranges as much and stopped thinking when we bet what are we trying make villains fold/call? I instead started thinking only about if villain checks he is likely to have nothing so we bet for value, I am only a month into studying the game seriously so I am still trying to build my fundamentals and sometimes these videos on the internet can do more harm than good if they are misinterpreted and I think thats what I had done, I went back and watched his videos again and I understand what he was trying to say and it didn't mean to neglect the technicalities of poker which I somewhat did but to understand there are weak players at the lowest levels and too find a fish, get a good hand and value bet when it makes sense too. This hand was a 3-bet pot versus a villain 6 handed who wasn't just limp calling every hand, I think that's a big difference.and a mistake I made.
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-01-2020 at 04:48 PM.
  35. #35
    I am looking at the hand again and this is what I am thinking,

    I held QTdd in UTG+1 6max. I raised and was 3-bet by BB, I decided to call IP. Flop comes Ac Tc 4h
    and villain checks to me , I bet out half pot and he calls. Preflop when I just call villains 3-bet his range is un-capped,he can still hold AA-JJ, AJ+, any ace or overpair.When villain checks the flop and we bet in this spot we are only getting solid hands to call us and making all bluffs fold. Villains flop calling range consists of many Aces here. The turn brings another A,what would villain check with in his range?Villain could check with KK-JJ, being afraid of the A,with TT I would expect a bet because of the board texture but its not out of his range entirely.Villain's check-calling range could be playing his drawing hands passively like KQcc,KJcc,QJcc, but that is only 3 combos of KQs,KJs,QJs and there are 11 total combos of those suited hands, 1 is missing from QJs we hold a Qd in our hand. What else can villain hold?AT....? Less likely but he could have turned a full-house and is now slow playing the turn .Basically everything beats us.

    Checking the flop after villain checks in this hand was better than to bet because with a bet we are only folding his missed face-cards sometimes , all his AA-TT will still call and we are value betting on ourselves essentially . I think this is what you guys were trying to tell me about the bet on the flop right? it was a poor play ? I think when I am playing poker maybe I should be betting 2/3 pot as a standard when I make my bets that way when they do call I can be a bit more confident they are holding something and not just calling because its a cheap price with a speculative hand. My line of play doesn't really make much sense here because if I put Villain on a missed hand like any missed face-cards I should have probably bet the turn and seen how he reacted if he were to call or raise I would have found it easier for me to get away on the river with confidence that I was beat.Overall the hand was played poorly, I should have been able to get away on the river either way but at least I learned something from it .
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 02-01-2020 at 04:28 PM.
  36. #36
    It's good that you're looking at the hand again. It doesn't really matter if I'm right or not, it helps to try to understand why someone thinks what they think. And you're doing that. I was blunt when I said it was a bad bet, this is a bet I sometimes make too. I make bad bets, it's not an insult. I know it's a bad bet when I think it's a value bet but I want them to fold.

    I hope I was wrong when I said you don't have the temperament. You're going the right away about proving me wrong. But if I can give you one piece of advice, it's to stop playing poker if you're angry or tilted. If you lose your temper easily, you are prone to tilt, and that can turn an otherwise winning player into a big loser. Believe me, I know. I've had one angry day wipe out a month of solid progress. Bad variance and bad mood is a brutal combination.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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