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Bad beat or just fishy play by hero?

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  1. #1

    Default Bad beat or just fishy play by hero?

    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    PokerStars
    8 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    Stacks:
    UTG Fedot51 ($1.69) 85bb
    UTG+1 fomik33 ($2.21) 111bb
    MP1 Peca1481 ($3.34) 167bb
    MP2 Cuz Miller ($2.24) 112bb
    CO Boomz25 ($1.66) 83bb
    BTN den150581 ($1.32) 66bb
    SB lein624 ($2.13) 107bb
    BB Hero ($1.60) 80bb

    Pre-Flop: (0.03, 8 players) Hero is BB
    1 fold, fomik33 raises to $0.05, 1 fold, Cuz Miller calls $0.05, Boomz25 calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.03
    Flop: ($0.21, 4 players)

    Hero checks, fomik33 checks, Cuz Miller bets $0.08, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.08, fomik33 folds

    Turn: ($0.37, 2)
    Hero checks, Cuz Miller bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, Cuz Miller raises to $0.70, Hero goes all-in $1.47, Cuz Miller calls $0.77 River: ($3.31, 2), 1 all-in

    Final Pot: $3.31
    Cuz Miller shows a full house, Eights full of Sevens

    Hero shows a flush, Nine high


    Cuz Miller wins $3.19 (net +$1.59)

    Boomz25 lost $0.05
    Hero lost $1.60
    fomik33 lost $0.05
  2. #2
    i got a good price to call so i did, flop gave me a flush draw, when MP bet out 0.08 i figured he had top pair maybe A9, pocket pair, maybe a 7 i wasnt too sure but for him to bet into 3 players i didnt put him on a flush draw, I was getting 3.5:1 to call i need 4:1 for flush draw i think i figured they guy behind me may call if not i will get future bets from Villian. I turned a flush. Villian raised on turn I re-raised and he 3-bet me , the 3 bet made me think he had something pretty strong but im also playing at smallest limits so not everyone plays optimally. what should my thought process have been here? higher flush? should I have put him on his hand ? i knew a raise like that meant he had something strong i just wasnt sure if he had me beat any advice would be appreciated . thank you
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Fold PRE. EZ game.

    Your mission while you're at these micro stakes is to learn to fold weak hands and to value bet strong hands. Do not worry about trying to bluff. Most Villains wont fold to your bluffs because they're not thinking about what your cards are. So they wont fold 1 pair hands on later streets. Your mission is to exploit the hell out of that rookie mistake. If you can't bluff them off the hand, you don't try. You just wait until you can crush their 1 pair hand and then you bet like crazy. If they call overbets, then you overbet. If they'll call all-in shoves when 1 pair hands, then you shove 2-pair+ hands against them.


    No point in playing 62s at the micro-stakes. Just play ABC poker. Don't get Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS). Just play a straight game and you'll clean house. It's the micros. You don't need to be tricky. They're not paying much if any attention to you, your cards, or your bet-sizing. What you may worry is playing "face up" is really not against most opponents.


    It's good to play suited cards from the blinds, but not just any suited cards. If you're calling with 62s, then you're calling probably 50% of hands in that spot, and you cannot make money playing out of position with that wide a range.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Make a note on this Villain that they bet $0.08 into a pot of $0.21 when they wanted to draw an 8.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Fold PRE. EZ game.
    Pot odds are good, calling is ok. Folding is never going to be a mistake, but it's ok to call this pre flop if hero plays accurately post flop, which he doesn't.

    Flop, this smashes into the big blind's range more than anyone else in the hand. I'd check-raise this quite happily. We're delighted to get folds, we don't hate being called, and can get away easily when we're reraised. This is the ideal bluffing hand for us in this spot. I'm happier to just call Ax and Kx flush draws because I don't want to be pushed off the flop, whereas with this hand I don't care if I have to fold.

    Check-calling is ok I guess, I wouldn't be folding flop at this price. But check-raising is better.

    Moving on to turn. Do not check-raise. We have great showdown value but this is not a good spot to get the money in. When villain continues against us against three hearts and a paired board, we are often drawing dead. This turn action is burning money.

    Just check-call turn. At river, I'd want to check-call a smallish bet and would hate life it he bets big, but I'd probably call because people do crazy stuff at these stakes. But I'm not happy about it. Our hand is not anywhere near the nuts, it is a bluff catcher. When he happily stacks off on the turn, he is not bluffing, he is beating us.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    No point in playing 62s at the micro-stakes. Just play ABC poker.
    This is solid advice. 62s is playable in this spot, but if you're not skilled post flop, then don't play these hands and just play a strong range.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Guys thank you for all the advice really appreciate your time to read my hand and give knowledge
  8. #8
    You're welcome. It's nice to have some poker to talk about here, it's been quiet here for some time. Good luck with your progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Pot odds are good, calling is ok. Folding is never going to be a mistake, but it's ok to call this pre flop if hero plays accurately post flop, which he doesn't.

    Flop, this smashes into the big blind's range more than anyone else in the hand. I'd check-raise this quite happily. We're delighted to get folds, we don't hate being called, and can get away easily when we're reraised. This is the ideal bluffing hand for us in this spot. I'm happier to just call Ax and Kx flush draws because I don't want to be pushed off the flop, whereas with this hand I don't care if I have to fold.

    Check-calling is ok I guess, I wouldn't be folding flop at this price. But check-raising is better.

    Moving on to turn. Do not check-raise. We have great showdown value but this is not a good spot to get the money in. When villain continues against us against three hearts and a paired board, we are often drawing dead. This turn action is burning money.

    Just check-call turn. At river, I'd want to check-call a smallish bet and would hate life it he bets big, but I'd probably call because people do crazy stuff at these stakes. But I'm not happy about it. Our hand is not anywhere near the nuts, it is a bluff catcher. When he happily stacks off on the turn, he is not bluffing, he is beating us.
    This response is very valuable just what I was looking for, I started learning poker on poker strategy and have come to the idea I need to play these drawing hands passively , a check raise seems a bit aggressive can you tell me your thought process on why to check raise him on flop?I’m a noob lol, with a check raise OOP if he calls and we hit the flush what’s our line of play raise and fold to a reraise?

    I can see you have a deep understanding of the game and appreciate the breakdown
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-12-2020 at 01:37 AM.
  10. #10
    I like to check-raise my better draws because of balance. If we're only raising strong, made hands then we are not balanced. That makes it easy for skilled villains to play accurately against us.

    The kind of draws I like to raise are the draws I don't mind folding to a reraise, or the draws I don't mind stacking off with. Nut flush draws with a straight draw are the kind of draws I'm happy to lose my stack with. Weak flush draws on paired boards are the kind of draws I can fold when rerasied. I wouldn't raise a nut flush draw here because I would have to fold to a reraise, but it would suck to do so when we could have called instead of raising.

    Balance is an important factor, not so much at these stakes but certainly as we move up. When we consider raising, we should ask ourselves "what else do we raise with?". If we're only raising sets and 2pr hands, then it's going to be hard to get value from them because good villains will simply fold, knowing they are beat. When villains see that we raise flush draws, it means that they can't fold their top pair hands so easily against our raises, which gives us value with our sets.

    Balance is about asking oneself what our range looks like to other people, and ensuring that we're not playing face up.

    I'm raising this flop because, as the big blind, we are the most likely person in the hand to have hit this flop. We can easily have 7x. If we have 7x, then we want to raise for value. If we're only raising 7x here, then villains won't continue with 9x or even AA. But if we raise 62hh, and villains know we can do this, then when we do have 7x, we get more money. 62hh is an ideal bluffing hand because even when we're called, we can still beat AA, and lots of other hands. If everyone folds to our raise, well we just won the pot with six high, fistpump.

    If we get called and make the flush, we should proceed with caution, while thinking about how it impacts on the rest of our range. If we have 7x, then we don't like the heart. If we have a full house, we crush the board and can slow play with impunity. So I'd check-call the turn. If it checks through, then I'd bet the river, probably folding to a river raise.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You're giving 2NL villains too much credit, and by extension, you're telling OP to play a game against villains that aren't at his tables.

    That is not what I'm suggesting, which is to always play against each villain individually.
    Learn to beat the villains sitting at your table.


    Of course, your advice is excellent if the villains will notice Hero's range and bet-sizing. In my experience, that was not the case.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  12. #12
    I'm trying to get hero to think about his range, which is an important skill, even if villains are not thinking about his range. Hero doesn't want to be playing low stakes forever.

    Some villains will be good enough to put hero on a range, even at these stakes. If hero is not thinking about his own range then he'll get crushed by the good players, which will hurt his bankroll more than the benefit he gets off those who are bad.

    You're assuming all 2nl players are bad. This is simply not true, and it's a mistake to think it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    Pre looks too loose, especially with high rake and no antes. You'll often see that even when you have a flush post-flop, you either have an obvious flush and win minimal, or when a lot of money is going into the pot, you're going to be crushed often. Maybe this is okay at 2nl when villains will still overvalue big pairs and two pair, but when the reg ratio increases you'll very likely be losing money calling this pre.

    Same goes for flatting baby pairs pre-flop in more reggish games, especially with a lot of players still to act. You'll get squeezed behind too often and when a lot of money goes in post-flop multiway, there's a good chance your set has been coolered and you're going to lose a big pot.

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