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any thoughts on these hands appreciated

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  1. #1

    Default any thoughts on these hands appreciated

    I'm trying to play ABC poker I've came to the understanding that you have 2 reasons to bet, correct me if I'm wrong:
    -for betting for value is which is when you bet and think you can be called by worse
    -for bluffing is trying to push someone off a hand better than yours

    I have no info on villains
    I open for 3bb and get called by BU and SB

    flop gives me nut flush with 2 overs, SB checks and I wasn't sure if my bet is for value because I have no pair or flush
    yet and I don't know if villain has hit the board so my hand would be called by worse if that makes sense. I knew my hand has pretty good chance at improving but I check and BU bets. I check raise him because I didn't want to call and miss on the turn being OOP and giving up initiative, what should I have been thinking about how to play my hand post flop here? after BU bet out
    I thought he might have something so I just check-raised he folded and I think I may have missed out on profit by playing it that way.

    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    PokerStars
    7 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    Stacks:
    UTG ($2.47) 124bb
    UTG+1 ($0.55) 28bb
    MP Hero ($2.06) 103bb
    CO ($3.33) 167bb
    BTN ($1.88) 94bb
    SB ($0.39) 20bb
    BB ($4.07) 204bb

    Pre-Flop: (0.03, 7 players) Hero is MP
    2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold
    Flop: ($0.20, 3 players)

    SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.10, SB folds, Hero raises to $0.28, BTN folds

    Final Pot: $0.58

    Hero wins $0.57 (net +$0.23)

    SB collects $0.00 (net -$0.06)
    BTN lost $0.16

    HAND 2

    2 people limped in I was SB I raised with KQs, Villain calls UTG. Flop comes I c-bet even though I missed, he calls.Turn comes I pair my Q but its a spade I check because again I'm not sure if I can get value or not he had called on the flop but because he limp called I don't know what range to put him on besides a weak pocket pair or some suited connectors 56s to JT's or weak Ax ( In the hand I was thinking mostly small pocket pairs trying to setmine) he bets 5bb on the turn which I thought was odd , maybe a small pair trying to make me fold If I had nothing since I checked which shows weakness. I called the turn the river comes and I was thinking he could have the flush , or a low pair . I didn't think a low pair would call me and a flush has me beat so I thought I'll check call if he bets I could have him beat sometimes.

    $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
    PokerStars
    9 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

    Stacks:
    UTG ($1.57) 79bb
    UTG+1 ($2.64) 132bb
    MP1 ($3.75) 188bb
    MP2 ($1.98) 99bb
    MP3 ($2.08) 104bb
    CO ($2.11) 106bb
    BTN ($1.46) 73bb
    SB Hero ($1.87) 94bb
    BB ($3.37) 169bb

    Pre-Flop: (0.03, 9 players) Hero is SB
    1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.02, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.08, MP2 folds
    Flop: ($0.24, 2 players)

    Hero bets $0.18, UTG+1 calls $0.18

    Turn: ($0.60, 2)
    Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10 River: ($0.80, 2)

    Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $0.39, Hero calls $0.39

    Final Pot: $1.58
    UTG+1 shows a flush, Ace high


    UTG+1 wins $1.52 (net +$0.75)

    MP2 lost $0.02
    Hero lost $0.77
    Last edited by DonkeyBets; 01-16-2020 at 04:37 PM.
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Don't forget semi-bluffs. Betting a big draw is neither clearly betting for value or clearly betting as a bluff.
    Just because you don't have a made hand yet, doesn't mean you have no equity in making the made hand.
    I.e. your equity may be above Villain's when you bet a big draw, even though you don't have a hand, "yet."

    Also, A-high is sometimes the best hand. Sometimes K-high is. Having a pair is not a prerequisite.

    I have no info on villains
    Sure you do!
    First orbit at a new table? Assume population reads on everyone. When you see them do ANYTHING outside of the population read, that's now the read on them.
    When you don't have individual reads, you apply population reads.

    If it's not the first orbit, then I am disappoint.
    Your opponents' tendencies are the single most important thing you should be paying rapt attention to.
    There's no "most valuable" thing in poker, but paying attention to your opponents is probably the most valuable thing in poker.


    Hand 1: You have TPTK + NFD on the flop. If you're not betting this for value, then start betting this for value.
    Personally, I use x/r as a tactic to push back at someone whom I think C-bets too much. Force them to think twice about opening the betting and maybe they'll give you some free cards once in a while.
    BUT since you have "no info on villains" then you're just spew-checking your value off as FPS. You have no read that Villain C-bets "too many" hands OTF, so don't play like you have that read.


    Hand 2: Is fine. If you put Villain on population read, and your population read is that people will draw to just about any flush, then you played perfectly. You C-bet in a HU pot when it was unlikely that the flop hit either player's range from PRE.
    Note how little value Villain got on his flush. He did get some, but you'd have called a bigger bet OTT, and maybe OTR, as well, given your population read that everyone bluffs too much.
    But then you played well, too, because you also have a population read that everyone plays too many suited cards and flush mines, so you played cautiously once a flush came in.

    Is fine.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Make a note on the Villain in hand 2 that they bet 10 into 60 when their FD hit OTT.

    Maybe this means they always bet small when they have a hand. If you get more than 1 note to back this up, you can start making some tighter folds when they bet small, confident that you're behind.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Ah crap... I though you had TPTK + NFD in the first hand, but you had just the NFD.
    I don't mind the x/r as much.

    Still, I don't think x/r is warranted w/o a read that Villain C-bets too much. I prefer to x/f or x/c, and with the NFD, I don't want to fold if the pot odds are OK, which they are.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  5. #5
    Sorry about the confusion , made typos for now on I will proof read x2 to make sure it’s not confusing for the reader,I will take notes too bet with high equity? Right?
  6. #6
    I'm trying to play ABC poker I've came to the understanding that you have 2 reasons to bet, correct me if I'm wrong:
    -for betting for value is which is when you bet and think you can be called by worse
    -for bluffing is trying to push someone off a hand better than yours
    Yes.

    The AQs hand is played perfectly. I like your flop sizing a lot.

    KQs... betting flop is marginal. We don't have to cbet every flop, and this flop is dreadful for our hand. We can just give up here.
    Turn... we hit top pair. Check/call is good at this price after he called the flop.
    River... not a good spot. His bet screams value and it's hard to see what we beat. Folding would be an extremely disciplined play, I probably call but I'm far from thrilled about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Actually I take it back, AQs isn't played perfectly. We check/raised this. Just bet it, this flop is excellent.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    I just wanted to say thanks again guys for putting work into me as a newbie to this forum ,you guys didn’t and don’t owe me anything and yet you take time out of your lives to analysis and give advice to a complete stranger over and over selflessly . Out of the couple of forums I’ve been on I feel like this one is my home. Friendly people zero bad vibes and very good knowledge. I’m surprised there arnt more people on these forums they are missing out. My reads have gotten much better by sitting out an orbit or two and analyzing villains before I play, writing down notes when I see their home cards, and taking advantage of player types has been working well. It’s all thanks to you guys I will continue to climb and you guys have given me more than I could have asked for
  9. #9
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DonkeyBets View Post
    I'm trying to play ABC poker I've came to the understanding that you have 2 reasons to bet, correct me if I'm wrong:
    -for betting for value is which is when you bet and think you can be called by worse
    -for bluffing is trying to push someone off a hand better than yours
    Thanks for posting some hands. There's a few of us lurking that like to talk poker (and without trolling like some other forums).

    You're missing the part about denying villain some equity e.g. if we have 77 on a flop of K52, we're pretty thrilled if villain folds QJ/QT/JT type of hands that have 25% equity against our exact holding. If we hold QQ on the same flop, we're not worried about denying villain equity with the same holdings or AT/AJ. So we can check and pick off a bluff or two.

    Hand 1: I don't hate going any route here (bet, chkcall, chkraise). Betting is fine. Villain should fold a fair amount here and can only really continue with pairs (which we have good equity against and can barrel off), sets and some suited spade and diamond combos. I don't mind a check raise also against some opponents, mixed in with check raising some vulnerable overpairs. Check call could also be okay.

    Hand 2: I don't mind a bet, but you don't need to go so big when going for a one and done against a fish. Half pot is more than fine imo.
  11. #11
    I think if hero is going to bet this flop with the KQs, he should bet what he does with AA. I feel like a half pot bet is allowing villain to draw too cheaply, and if we bet less with bluffs than we do with value, then we're not balanced.

    Sizing is difficult to get right, but for me the most important thing is balance. Bet the same with all your hands. If you're betting 18c on this flop with king high, bet the same with AA. If you're betting 12c with king high, bet the same with AA.

    As for whether you should bet flop or not, idk, I guess we do need to bet these flops with some frequency, because otherwise we're going to have exclusively overpairs and a few flush draws when we do bet. But we can't cbet 100% of the time. We do need to let the table see us raise pre, then check/fold sometimes, this makes it easier to bluff king high on Axx. So this would be one of those situations where sometimes you bluff, sometimes you give up. It depends largely on your table image really, how active you've been and if you've recently been caught bluffing, or if someone just paid you off.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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