Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,282,000 Posts!
Poker ForumSmall Stakes NL Hold'em

Am I making the right move?

Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1

    Default Am I making the right move?

    Hi All,

    I'm new member here on FTR and this is my first thread posting a hand history. I want to know what others think about my shove on the turn. Do you think it's the right move? What would you do differently? I will post the result after I read a few replies.

    Please note I'm playing Zoom $0.01-$0.02 on pokerstars.

    Seat 1: Button ($2.77 in chips)
    Seat 2: SB ($4.22 in chips)
    Seat 3: BB ($3.74 in chips)
    Seat 4: Player 1 ($1.87 in chips)
    Seat 5: Player 2 ($1.97 in chips)
    Seat 6: PJ10fan ($2.04 in chips)
    SB: posts small blind $0.01
    BB: posts big blind $0.02


    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to PJ10fan [8h 8s]
    Player 1: raises $0.04 to $0.06 Player 2: calls $0.06 PJ10fan: calls $0.06 Button: folds SB: folds BB: folds

    *** FLOP *** [8d 6h 4h]
    Player 1: bets $0.12 Player 2: calls $0.12 PJ10fan: calls $0.12

    *** TURN *** [8d 6h 4h] [9c]
    Player 1: bets $0.28 Player 2: calls $0.28 PJ10fan: raises $1.58 to $1.86 and is all-in
  2. #2
    why not raise flop?
    "The harder you work, the luckier you get." ~ courtesy of my fortune cookie from china king

    "One of the best pieces of advice I've ever read in this forum was three words long...

    bet fucking fold." Ong
  3. #3
    I agree raise flop, as there are to many weird draws on it
    The Time To Act Is Now...
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,149
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    I want to know what others think about my shove on the turn. Do you think it's the right move?
    There are no 'right moves' in poker. Certainly there are plays that get more or less EV than others, and ideally the goal is to maximize EV on every decision. The problem is that knowing your cards and the board cards is nowhere near enough information to figure that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    What would you do differently?
    In the OP:
    I would include player pool reads to give people who do not play on my site a sense of the general action.
    This is important since not all posters have ever played on stars for real money. I have not even got a broad, general idea what 2NL is like on a hand to hand basis.

    I would include reads on every player who has NOT folded before my first action.
    This is important because it is my opponents' ranges and habits that determine my own best moves. Each player approaches the game differently, and I need to recognize that one player's strength is another player's weakness.

    I would include my reasoning for every decision I made within the hand.
    When I post a HH for anaylisis, I want to be brutally honest with myself about my play and encourage people to think deeply about what I'm doing.

    I would try to anticipate what questions would be asked of me and I would answer them in advance in the OP.
    This helps people to see that I'm truly invested in getting better and that I want to hear the advice I request. When people see that they are being taken seriously, they are more forthcoming with solid advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    I will post the result after I read a few replies.
    NEVER POST RESULTS IN A HAND HISTORY THREAD!!

    First of all, it ends the conversation before everyone has had a chance to offer you their perspective. Even weeks later someone may see your thread for the first time and have something interesting to say.

    Second of all, it encourages you to think that the result of a poker hand is something you should care about. This couldn't be further from the truth.
    Poker is long-term game. No single result from any single hand is relevant in the big picture of your play and your winrate.
    Avoid results-oriented thinking at every opportunity.
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,149
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerKing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by acg123 View Post
    why not raise flop?
    I agree raise flop, as there are to many weird draws on it
    When someone asks you a question, be careful to not assume they were telling you something.

    I think ACG wasn't telling you to raise the flop; he was asking you why you didn't raise the flop.

    Here are some questions that need answering:
    1) What are Villains' ranges going into the flop? / turn? / With what ranges do you think each Villain will call your shove?

    2) Why did you flat call w/ 88 from the CO against a UTG open and MP cold call?

    3) Why did you smooth call in position OTF?

    4) Why did you raise OTT?

    5) Why did you choose your bet sizing OTT as all-in?
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 12-28-2014 at 11:58 AM.
  6. #6
    Hi All,

    Thanks for your feedback. I decided not to raise on the flop to get more chips in the hand. Also if someone is on a flush draw I would think I have to raise a lot to make them fold after the flop. I wanted to see a cheap turn and see if the flush came on the table. With the raise preflop I wouldn't put anyone on a hand like 5-7. I guess someone on a flush draw had a 40% chance of hitting the flush and a raise would not push them away.

    On the turn I saw 2 largers bets and felt they were on a drawning hand, just bluffing or over pair and felt I hand a chance to make a good pot. If I was lucky one of them had an set smaller than mine and drawing to 1 out. So that's why I decided to shove all in. I felt that I was in the lead with the ranges I put them on and would be going all in with the best hand. I also though if they folded that's a good size pot considering the level I'm playing at.

    MadMojoMonkey, I will take your advise and avoid posting the results. I will also provide more details about my thought process when posting a hand history. I'm new to this forum thing and posting hand history. I like to keep this thread running with better examples in the future.
  7. #7
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    9,149
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    Hi All, Thanks for your feedback.
    Hi. Thanks for posting. Keep it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    I decided not to raise on the flop to get more chips in the hand.
    In general, if you want more chips in the pot, then you should bet/raise when it's your turn. You should avoid closing the action.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    Also if someone is on a flush draw I would think I have to raise a lot to make them fold after the flop.
    This is exactly why you should raise. You have the best hand and you think they will not fold.
    (If playing deep-stack poker) you should bet 1 BB less than the amount you think they will fold. You want to get as much money in the pot as fast as you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    I wanted to see a cheap turn and see if the flush came on the table.
    YOU SHOULD NOT WANT THIS. You aren't the one with the flush draw!
    You should bet in such a way that even when the flush draw comes in, you still win money by exploiting the amount they payed for the draw. In the long run, they will miss more than they hit, and you want to be on the winning side of the long-term.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    With the raise preflop I wouldn't put anyone on a hand like 5-7. I guess someone on a flush draw had a 40% chance of hitting the flush and a raise would not push them away.
    These are reasons to bet/raise.

    ***
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    On the turn I saw 2 largers bets and felt they were on a drawning hand, just bluffing or over pair and felt I hand a chance to make a good pot. If I was lucky one of them had an set smaller than mine and drawing to 1 out. So that's why I decided to shove all in. I felt that I was in the lead with the ranges I put them on and would be going all in with the best hand.
    This is decent reasoning.

    What are these ranges you speak of?

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    I also though if they folded that's a good size pot considering the level I'm playing at.

    You want to maximize your wins and/or minimize your losses on every decision. It's not about the size of the pot you win in any one hand, it's about making every decision a net gain (or at least not a net loss).

    When you settle for a pot that could have been bigger, then you're costing your own bottom line.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    MadMojoMonkey, I will take your advise and avoid posting the results. I will also provide more details about my thought process when posting a hand history. I'm new to this forum thing and posting hand history. I like to keep this thread running with better examples in the future.
    It's all good. Please take my advice as friendly.

    I know I can sound like a monkey sometimes, but I mean well.

    Welcome to FTR!
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post

    I think ACG wasn't telling you to raise the flop; he was asking you why you didn't raise the flop.
    exactly. just wanted to know why so passive, and OP answered with "I decided not to raise on the flop to get more chips in the hand" which is counter-intuitive. if you want more money you have to put it out there, I don't mind a squeeze preflop, we have position and stacks are deep enough that we can 3b/fold to shove. or call a shove depends how your games run, if people only 4bet the top-top of their range then calling pre is better. so you flat pre and now flop a set.

    on the flop you should always be raising here, I mean your at the top of your range theres not a better spot to do it. your thinking is logical but in the long run will work against you with 2 villains, if you were HU with UTG then flatting flop is standard but with MP in there you have to raise and get value for your set to make up for the times you call pre and the flop comes AK9,ATT,AJ9 etc. and are forced to fold. as played I guess jamming turn is only option left really, I still don't like it I feel like were letting our villains "catch up" by not raising flop. you giving them free cards basically and I don't like giving anything away, especially cards on wet flop textures. as played is ok, but next time squeeze pre or raise flop.
    "The harder you work, the luckier you get." ~ courtesy of my fortune cookie from china king

    "One of the best pieces of advice I've ever read in this forum was three words long...

    bet fucking fold." Ong
  9. #9
    It would have been helpful to post the pot size at each street. The info is there but it would save us adding.

    I think 2NL Zoom is crazy-loonville-under-the-ocean.
    P2 has $4 though which looks to be twice the max buyin so he's probably comparatively competent and likely has a range leaning heavy in PPs and SCs: draws and pairs are not improbable when he calls flop.

    In MP I could see flatting the flop to keep the other player in but not as last to act. If you're concerned they'll fold then min-raising is acceptable (with the intention of folding to a bet on a flush board if both call) but the draws make a more aggressive bet better imo.

    At $1.13-Rake you are right that the pot was respectable when you Shoved. When set mining you want your hits to win at least 10x what you risked pre-flop and here you have $1.13-R-18c = ~90c for your initial 6c ...you certainly don't want to settle for less than you can get. At this point your $1.86 is barely over a Pot-bet though so it's not unacceptably intimidating and at this level there's a good chance of at least one call (who might fold if you wait for the River and don't fill their draw).

    Bear in mind that the 10x figure is pretty much break-even* and you are trying to make a profit here! This is a one in 144 hand: take it for all you can get!


    * you hit the set about 1/8.5 but will lose a few of those won't get paid off every time you do. Estimates for what size stack you need people to have preflop vary between 10x and 20x.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Timlagor View Post
    * you hit the set about 1/8.5 but will lose a few of those won't get paid off every time you do. Estimates for what size stack you need people to have preflop vary between 10x and 20x.
    In this day and age of aggression I don't think this is an accurate number. You really need to have a more defined plan when calling pre than just hitting a set and getting paid. If you go 20x OOP with me raising all day you will never make that money back.
  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    8,697
    Location
    soaking up ethanol, moving on up
    nice hand to make your first post with!
    preflop looks good, raise flop.
    Quote Originally Posted by PJfan10 View Post
    I decided not to raise on the flop to get more chips in the hand. Also if someone is on a flush draw I would think I have to raise a lot to make them fold after the flop.
    in this spot the best way to get more chips in is to bet/raise/bet/raise whenever you get the chance.
    when you raise you aren't trying to make them fold their flush draws, you size it so that any call that they make is incorrect. That's how you win dollars in poker.
    Keep posting hands like these and you'll learn a lot!

    and a quick plug - when i started out, I found that having a blog thread here on FTR (http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...nd-145759.html) was a really good means of retaining focus on developing as a poker player. Give it a shot. And if you want inspiration, check out this blog/op thread:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...te-167542.html
    Last edited by daven; 12-31-2014 at 08:32 PM.
  12. #12
    Hi All,

    I read all your comments and find 1 think in common. I think you are all right about me raising a flop like that. I hit top set with a low board flush draw (strongly didn't think anyone would have flop a straight). I don't know why I think flat calling would build the pot when raising would be so much better in the position I was in. I like to add another hand history shortly. I will take all your advise as positive criticism.
  13. #13
    put future hands into the hand convertor at the top of the forum before you post it and copy the result into a new post in a more readable format

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •