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aces preflop - cold 4b?

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  1. #1
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    Default aces preflop - cold 4b?

    original opener is nit-pro. 11-9 with 75% fold to 3b (6/8). EP open range something like TT+/AQs+
    caller is loose passive dead money
    squeezer is shortstacker at all tables 200nl and below. 13-12-5, 7% squeeze. My image is active but winning.

    options seem to be 4b (and take it down or cooler somebody) vs flat and play some poker. Flat = utg may 4b the QQ/AK part of his range, hard to tell. Fish will likely continue if he only has to call a single raise. But, baby deep etc.
    plan?

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

    MP2 ($40)
    MP3 ($30.55)
    Hero (CO) ($111.40)
    Button ($142.10)
    SB ($49.30)
    BB ($50.55)
    UTG ($74.50)
    UTG+1 ($31.80)
    MP1 ($100.95)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A
    UTG bets $1.50, UTG+1 calls $1.50, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $5, hero?
  2. #2
    Sometimes call sometimes shove. Alternate. In this case, let it be decided by how much pre-flopping 3bet/4bet battling there has been done. If it's a preflop war, RR.
  3. #3
    bikes's Avatar
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    $10.5

    jamming seems roflsilly as does calling
  4. #4
    rpm's Avatar
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    i agree with bikes. especially if your image is active. i think i can see why you would want to flat, but i'm pretty sure i missed out on quite a bit of $ in the day by flatting my whole continuing range in these spots cuz "everyone knows i have nothing but the nuts when i c4b here" (not syaing that's necessarily your logic, but it was mine). nowadays i'd rather just c4b and cooler somebody the times they have the top of their range, and make my hand far easier to play postflop whenever i get flatted. also re-opening the preflop betting gives villains another chance to make a mistake, whereas flatting makes us more likely to make a mistake going to a flop probably OOP vs up to 3 opponents. even regs do really dumb stuff sometimes, if you give them the chance.

    for curiosity's sake, do you have a c4b bluff range here?
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    When you have AA, the last thing you want is to play them multi-handed.
    Second to last thing you want is to wait until you're behind to get your chips in.

    So the only real question is how much to raise. I'd usually go to $15 in this spot, adjusting for reads and dynamics.

    bikes want to raise much less... why is that? Oh, I see... ridiculous short stacks on 2 Villains.

    So I'd raise to ~$12.50.
  6. #6
    rpm's Avatar
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    i too would 4b to about $12. forgot to mention sizing.
  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikes View Post
    $10.5

    jamming seems roflsilly as does calling
    the more i think about it, the more i think this is the nuts. Cheers bikes. re sizing, pretty much anywhere from $10-$12.50 you reckon?
  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    for curiosity's sake, do you have a c4b bluff range here?
    ja, not so much. Which is why i wondered why 4betting is lock good. I mean, i might 4b AJ or KJ or something, but, nah, probably not. Shit, I would struggle with QQ in this spot. Probably 4b really small and fold if i got heat from utg and jam vs the others?
  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    ja, not so much. Which is why i wondered why 4betting is lock good. I mean, i might 4b AJ or KJ or something, but, nah, probably not. Shit, I would struggle with QQ in this spot. Probably 4b really small and fold if i got heat from utg and jam vs the others?
    I was struggling with this kind of balance in Jan. It seems that the solution is to add some bluffs that you play as strong as the nuts here, not to play the nuts like a weaker holding. It always comes down to Villains' ranges as-is vs. Villains' ranges to a raise of $x.xx sizing. Then it's just a matter of what hands Hero wants to play against those ranges.

    I definitely think there are good reasons to slow-play { KK+ } against certain villains, but those go out the window when a slow-play can induce a multi-handed flop.
  10. #10
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    Raise it pot +/- a buck, you will probably lose one hopefully two (UTG's) be prepared for MP3 shove!! You're not folding right??
    What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FlowJoe View Post
    Raise it pot +/- a buck, you will probably lose one hopefully two (UTG's) be prepared for MP3 shove!! You're not folding right??
    did you just ask daven if he's folding AA preflop?
  12. #12
    Oh yeah didn't look at stack sizes. Make it $12.5 not shove if you want to RR.
  13. #13
    bikes's Avatar
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    to elaborate on why 10.5 is good and 12.5 is too much, 10.5 gives far more illusion of fold equity for the big stack and the shortstack squeezer, esp cause 3ber has like the nuts or air here a huge % of the time.

    also a large non 0% of the time big stack will call thinking he has odds and position and then ss'er jams his like QQ+ or AK and we can rejam

    also taking a 3 way flop with effective stacks of $60 with 30 in the pot plays itself. bet, dont fold.

    also to the people saying call, how are you golng to secure the cooler if you don't 4b now?
  14. #14
    I prefer $12.5 because $10.5 is pretty strong, while $12.5 is a better balance between appearing bluffy but not too bluffy. What legit hand that is not an absolute monster, like TT if you decide to 4bet, would you raise to $10.5?
  15. #15
    $12.50 is massive given effective stack sizes. We would make it $10.50-ish with our entire range, including bluffs.
  16. #16
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    With the stack sizes the way they are, you shouldn't even be at the table. As played, I like a very small pre-flop raise, maybe even a min-raise.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 07-03-2013 at 10:21 PM.
  17. #17
    Fnord's Avatar
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    I would flat and hope a worse pair stacks himself off or someone goes crazy and shoves over.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    $12.50 is massive given effective stack sizes. We would make it $10.50-ish with our entire range, including bluffs.
    Even with AK? That is whether we play AK with a reraise or not.
  19. #19
    the best move here is clearly insta minraise

    make it look misclicky
  20. #20
    bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73 View Post
    the best move here is clearly insta minraise

    make it look misclicky

    i can never think of cool lines like this anymore =(
  21. #21
    What, are you worried that villain is going to be priced into calling off 1/3rd of his stack to a 4b OOP so that he can have a 1:1 SPR on the flop? Villain can be our guest. I mean, it's hard to play the game of "if it were the right play to reraise with AK, what amount should we make it" because our sizing depends on what we're trying to accomplish with our raise, but that's my general sentiment with any part of my range that I'm 4b'ing with

    Raising to $12.50 commits us to calling off a shove, which isn't something that looks very bluffy at all. It helps that we hold AA, and there's no such thing as a flop that we mind seeing with 1 PSB left behind. Well, okay, KQJhhh is unfortunate, but you get the point.

    In all honesty, $10.50 seems on the large side.
  22. #22

    Default FevyFradnepay

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    With the stack sizes the way they are, you shouldn't even be at the table. As played, I like a very small pre-flop raise, maybe even a min-raise.
    I don't get this? it's 50nl, not 100nl.
    200bb effective with a fish three seats to my right, 80bb effective with a fish two seats to my right, etc. Average stack size at the table is well over 100bb, there's only one decent shortstacker at the table. I mean, i guess it isn't ideal that there is a big stack two seats to my left, but it doesn't seem a big deal.
  24. #24
    rpm's Avatar
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    add me to the 4b no more than $11 camp. i forgot we were dealing with a 60bber. we need to be able represent a range which has bluffs in it, and if we were c4b bluffing here, we probably wouldnt want to be 4bing so large. i think $11 would be as high as i'd go here
  25. #25
    If utg+1 or utg are likely to call 12.50 or 10.50, then I'd rather just make it 12.50 and force MP to be in more of a shoving spot with his shorter stack, then if we make it 10.50 and UTG calls and MP might elect to call rather than shove potentially.

    This really isn't a spot I would be cold 4b too light, so I'm not overly concerned about balancing with some range full of air.
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  26. #26
    Everyone can tag along, I don't give a fuck. We're going to have a tiny SPR with a hand that guarantees we flop an overpair.
  27. #27
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    My simplistic play would be if theirs that much money in the pot re.raise him too all in ,AA is good pre-flop ,i have had a bad beat a few times because the pot is big ,most players will call into a big pot ,

    Example if the pot is 200 and you only need to bet 12,the expectation is positive,but your 12 might go 24 ,48,if nothing lands on flop,you have semi bluff,or flush draw.,maybe even 3 outs.
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73 View Post
    the best move here is clearly insta minraise

    make it look misclicky
    this or call.

    do what you can to underrep your hand basically.. since you only ever c4b AA for value here and unless you have a read the big nit isn't positional aware he's probably going over to 2p2 to make a folded kk pre thread

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