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75s steal flops two pair. Turn? plan?

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  1. #1
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    Default 75s steal flops two pair. Turn? plan?

    9-handed table breaking. Villain is loose winning reg. Plays 6max and FR mostly 50nl, some 25nl.
    He doesn't fold to many flop cbets (55%) or turn cbets (50%).

    Turn play? I considered all options.

    $25 No Limit Holdem
    5 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
    Table ABI

    Stacks:
    UTG (32) 129bb
    daven (CO) (25) 100bb
    BTN (79) 318bb
    SB (47) 188bb
    BB (13) 51bb

    Blinds: 0/0

    Pre-Flop: (0, 5 players) daven is CO
    1 fold, daven raises to 1, BTN calls 1, SB calls 1, BB calls 1

    Flop: (3, 4 players)
    SB checks, BB checks, daven bets 3, BTN calls 3, SB folds, BB folds

    Turn: (9, 2 players)
    daven (21.35)?
  2. #2
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    daven bets 6.

    Why are you opening 4x in the CO 5 handed with a half-stack in the BB?
  3. #3
    I'm confused as to what you think this should be anything other than a bet?

    What reasons would you have for checking? You already said he doesn't fold to turns either right? So clear bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  4. #4
    rpm's Avatar
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    value bet it. you're going to bluff this card a lot as well i'd imagine. plus our position/initiative will let us play better than villain on the river

    edit: as for sizing, i'd make it whatever you would normally bet with QJ or Kxhh or whatever bluffs you would double barrel
    Last edited by rpm; 06-14-2013 at 10:38 PM.
  5. #5
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with the guys here a bit. I don't cbet any garbage or even overs into three players on this board, so that turn is very bad for my range actually. Because of that my only bluffs are oesd's pretty much.

    Here I'd just c/f and value bet river with a wide range (including this hand) because I feel like that's a better fit for my overall strategy.

    Goes without saying that if there's some dynamic going on (and there very often is), then I would absolutely bet thrice.


  6. #6
    But it's a loose reg at 25NL. I think anything but b/f is FPS. We mostly only beat hands that are making bad calls, but I don't want to give the described player too much credit for accounting for number of players to the flop and board texture for cbets and the like.

    From a loose villain's perspective, he sees a wide opening range, a standard cbet and then a clear barreling card on the turn, and he'll talk himself into enough calls for us to justify betting into what is a very thin range of hands that beat us.
  7. #7
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Well, a discussion about the competence of regs at 25nl is not an interesting one, so I'm just going to say that vs competent opposition I feel like I can create a better overall strategy by checking this turn.


  8. #8
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    FPS running wild
  9. #9
    I can see having some checking range on the turn. But I don't see why we would ever c/f 57 here, maybe c/c 57.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  10. #10
    What griffey said. What's the reasoning behind x/f turn? If I were to check this turn, I would think it's to x/c.
  11. #11
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    I can see having some checking range on the turn. But I don't see why we would ever c/f 57 here, maybe c/c 57.
    Why do you think betting is such a good investment?


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Why do you think betting is such a good investment?
    We block 55/77, and some villains might 3b TT vs CO and/or raise flop. So we're only behind AT mostly.

    I don't love our flop cbet sizing, which may narrow his range somewhat, but I think given the frequency we might want to be bluffing this card (with QJ/KQdd,cc,hh, 89s, 46s, 7x/5x into bluffs) that it should be a bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  13. #13
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Well there's a big difference in strategy. I absolutely wouldn't cbet any QJ, KQ or unpaired Ax here. I also wouldn't bet 5x/7x on the turn and not even on the flop always, depending on oop villains.


  14. #14
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    Open seems loose to me given current reads on BTN unless he's just a nit who doesn't fold post.
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...-a-153854.html

    Join IRC. Now.

    <Cobra> Nobody folds an A BvB, that's absurd
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet View Post
    Open seems loose to me given current reads on BTN unless he's just a nit who doesn't fold post.
    This. Also if you are opening this wide why are you 4xing?
  16. #16
    Whether I agreed with them or not, P4's lines always made me think more about poker, for that I am grateful.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73 View Post
    Whether I agreed with them or not, P4's lines always made me think more about poker, for that I am grateful.
    Haha +1 to this.. rarely agreeing, but definitely good to see how other players might play in certain spots or think about certain spots.

    If I'm villain and somehow have like AJ here I'm barelling off facing a check thinking "well... nobody is every checking two pair + here" haha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacks View Post
    daven bets 6.

    Why are you opening 4x in the CO 5 handed with a half-stack in the BB?
    ftp hand history convert issues, i opened to 0.85

    Full Tilt Poker Game #32773006294: Table ABI (6 max) - NL Hold'em - $0.10/$0.25 - 22:57:08 ET - 2013/06/04
    Seat 1: 2crexxata2 ($12.64)
    Seat 2: alboxxadictogb ($32.13)
    Seat 3: davxxenigma ($25)
    Seat 4: PitoxxNca ($5.54), is sitting out
    Seat 5: Dooxxmi4ka ($79.42)
    Seat 6: CoxxnnorResin ($46.89)
    ConnorResin posts the small blind of $0.10
    2creata2 posts the big blind of $0.25
    The button is in seat #5
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to davxxenigma [7d 5d]
    alboaxxdictogb folds
    davexxnigma raises to $0.85
    Dooxxmi4ka calls $0.85
    ConxxnorResin calls $0.75
    2crexxata2 calls $0.60
    *** FLOP *** [Td 7c 5h] (Total Pot: $3.40, 4 Players)
    ConxxnorResin checks
    2crxxeata2 checks
    davexxnigma has 15 seconds left to act
    davexxnigma bets $2.80
    Dooxxmi4ka calls $2.80
    ConnxxorResin folds
    2crexxata2 folds
    *** TURN *** [Td 7c 5h] [Ah] (Total Pot: $9, 2 Players)
  19. #19
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    If I'm villain and somehow have like AJ here I'm barelling off facing a check thinking "well... nobody is every checking two pair + here" haha.
    that's why we're only considering action vs competent villain


  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    We block 55/77, and some villains might 3b TT vs CO and/or raise flop. So we're only behind AT mostly.
    .
    I had put A4s+ in villains pre flatting. Would you guys too??
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  21. #21
    Yeah you can check this (at all stakes really), but I wouldn't call it my default play. I used to think "2p has to be played with strong bets, especially the more vulnerable bottom 2p that you want to protect" but it's more complex than that.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Yeah you can check this (at all stakes really), but I wouldn't call it my default play. I used to think "2p has to be played with strong bets, especially the more vulnerable bottom 2p that you want to protect" but it's more complex than that.
    Could ya elaborate on the complexities if ya feel like it?
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  23. #23
    Sure. The gist of it is that you want your checking range to be stronger, as a general strategic plan to invest less in general, but also to prevent opponents from being able to auto-bluff you off of hands whenever you show weakness (ie, check).

    It's also important that you are well aware of the lines you take after you show down a hand at a table. If it was a strong hand, and you use this line again, people are more inclined to fold (so bank in your memory to use this as a bluff, unless you know your opponents are multi-level thinkers, in which case the leveling game begins but that's more advanced stuff), and you can use other lines, like checking 2p here, to get value. Like I said it's not my default play but it's definitely in my repertoire depending on my opponents and what I've been doing at a table.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Sure. The gist of it is that you want your checking range to be stronger, as a general strategic plan to invest less in general, but also to prevent opponents from being able to auto-bluff you off of hands whenever you show weakness (ie, check).
    The argument that P4s made for checking is that we're near the bottom of our range, so checking with this hand actually makes our checking range weaker.
  25. #25
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    The argument that P4s made for checking is that we're near the bottom of our range, so checking with this hand actually makes our checking range weaker.
    You'll want to rethink that Moving bottom two from our betting range to our checking range makes both ranges stronger, which is exactly what I want.


  26. #26
    P4, could you please explain how the betting range becomes stronger?
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    The argument that P4s made for checking is that we're near the bottom of our range, so checking with this hand actually makes our checking range weaker.
    It still makes your checking range stronger, unless you're betting all your air here (if you have this in your range after a cbet), and your checking range is the nuts. I personally would never c/f here barring reads, rather c/c or b/f. To c/f here seems pretty specific play against strong opponents.
  28. #28
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    P4, could you please explain how the betting range becomes stronger?
    Well by stronger I mean more polarized, less vulnerable and stronger against opponents made hands. Technically it could be considered weaker because it contains a higher bluff frequency.


  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    P4, could you please explain how the betting range becomes stronger?
    If your range that bets the turn is mostly sets (TT/AA/77/55), an occasional AT and some semi-bluffs (98/86), then removing bottom 2p from your betting range, makes the average of your betting range stronger.

    EDIT: I think I bluff here a high frequency of air on the turn, depends a bit on how much I can rep the A (like if I can have a random AK here), that might change things a bit.
    Last edited by jackvance; 06-23-2013 at 03:08 PM.
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Well by stronger I mean more polarized, less vulnerable and stronger against opponents made hands. Technically it could be considered weaker because it contains a higher bluff frequency.
    Makes perfect sense, ty.
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Well by stronger I mean more polarized, less vulnerable and stronger against opponents made hands. Technically it could be considered weaker because it contains a higher bluff frequency.
    Ya knOw I'm so glad there are more of the ftr wizards here in the bc . I'm getting ready to start grinding 10nl again and I couldn't express more enthusiasm that you guys will be around .

    Thanks
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF

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