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2NL premature?

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  1. #1
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    Default 2NL premature?

    Winning Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Winning Poker Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

    UTG ($3.06)
    MP ($3.03)
    CO ($2.89)
    Hero (Button) ($1.65)
    SB ($3.20)
    BB ($2.47)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 8
    3 folds, Hero raises $0.07, 1 fold, BB calls $0.05

    Flop: ($0.15) 8, 9, 3 (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.07, BB raises $0.21, Hero raises $0.56, 1 fold

    Total pot: $0.57 | Rake: $0.02

    Results below:
    Spoiler:

    Hero didn't show 9, 8.


    No HUD stats this hand. Last HH for awhile while I work on all your answers and research and analyze hands and your thoughts thanks again.
  2. #2
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    If you noticed, I just started spoonitnow's strategy program. I feel with all the study and analysis I plan to do, I should see some improvement in the long-term. These hands have all been hands with the option to continuation bet. Any extra tidbits on CBing would be great.
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    What is Villain's range to x/r OTF?

    Should you have called vs. raise?
    Was a fold the only real option at that point?
  4. #4
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    I would have just called BB's raise on the flop. The reraise only folds out everything you beat. You know how difficult it is to extract value from these guys on WPN.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    I would have just called BB's raise on the flop. The reraise only folds out everything you beat. You know how difficult it is to extract value from these guys on WPN.
    What ranges would you guess Villain has
    A) when he raises OTT
    B) if he continues to the 3bet?

    How would you have played out the hand on various board runouts?
    How much MORE value do you expect your suggested line to earn over the value that OP earned?

    Which is the higher EV line?
  6. #6
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Villain's Range: (I'll get to the rest) = 22-66, 23s-67s, 65o, 76o, A2s. Hero's hand is best 95.89% of the time (on that flop) and has an overall equity of 79.29%. I think this is just about where we're at when villain c/r's the flop. The more I look at it, the more I like hero's play OTF because villain's probably check/folding to anything on the turn anyway.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-16-2017 at 11:42 AM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  7. #7
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Am I misunderstanding you?

    You think that in this spot, Villain's range is massively dominated by Hero's range, and you want Villain to stop putting money in the pot?

    That should not be a reason to do anything to make Villain fold, in general.
    That should be exactly the time to make Villain feel like his (transparent) bluff (attempt) will work.

    EDIT: So Villain x/f OTT. How much money did Hero win/lose by giving him the opportunity to make a low equity bluff attempt?
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 06-16-2017 at 12:52 PM.
  8. #8
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Am I misunderstanding you?

    You think that in this spot, Villain's range is massively dominated by Hero's range, and you want Villain to stop putting money in the pot?
    See, this is exactly the kind of thing I need to think about and work on off the table. That's why I'm posting more now. I know I'm leaving literally the difference between moving up and breaking even on the table in these kinds of spots.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  9. #9
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    You guys' back and forth is helping me greatly as things are starting to click, although I'm not as far along as BSB. Can't wait.
  10. #10
    I'd like to see you top up to a full stack to maximise your winnings when you get it in good, plus maximise fold equity when you need that available to you too.

    I would look to size up my flop sizing on this texture with both my value and bluffs. In this spot, you will be getting called by a number of pairs, draws and overs, so we're leaving money on the table when we don't bet bigger for value.

    As played, I tend to flat or fold facing a check raise. I can flat when I have value and odds to draw, which leaves villain's bluffs in his range that he may continue with. We can then get it in on good turn cards where villain may be compelled to call with a chunk of his range that we beat.
  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    What is Villain's range to x/r OTF?

    Should you have called vs. raise?
    Was a fold the only real option at that point?
    What is Villain's range to x/r OTF? - To be honest I am only grasping at straws when it comes to SB and BB hand ranges. So for me to narrow BB down to check/raise range, I'm sorry. I would say with only having to call .5 to win .10 he could have a broad range to see the flop. But to check/raise. I would say V is capped to KQo+ unless getting tricky against what would likely have perceived as a button steal attempt. TT, 99, 88, 33, TJ, T9, T8d, T7d, 98, XXd, and a handful of single diamond bluff hands would be my guessed V C/R range. If you were probing, you are right. I likely didn't really think about it at the time, smiling too hard with my 2pr. Not good, I know. I need to take time to think of his betting lines and not just focus on my own.

    Should you have called vs. raise? - I was worried with the board texture, not merely being greedy here, to be honest. A SD/FD with 2 cards to come. I would have killed myself as to let him in for free cards, but was 1/2 pot much better? Take one of the draws out and I would have likely checked, although once PF aggressor then checking, often makes it hard to get much in the middle after.

    Was a fold the only real option at that point? - Not if he would have gotten a piece. Once he showed aggression I went aggro back. Once again with the texture added to his bet, I think my bet was justified to take it down now or get more money in. Couldn't truly know if he was just stabbing at my weak CB.
  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    I'd like to see you top up to a full stack to maximise your winnings when you get it in good, plus maximise fold equity when you need that available to you too.

    I would look to size up my flop sizing on this texture with both my value and bluffs. In this spot, you will be getting called by a number of pairs, draws and overs, so we're leaving money on the table when we don't bet bigger for value.

    As played, I tend to flat or fold facing a check raise. I can flat when I have value and odds to draw, which leaves villain's bluffs in his range that he may continue with. We can then get it in on good turn cards where villain may be compelled to call with a chunk of his range that we beat.
    I usually top off around $1.65 to $1.50. I know doing it manually has the difference between doubling from $3 to $4. I just like to mentally keep up with my BR better than auto topping random amounts out of my stash. I have lost a dollar on my big hands over and over, yet am not willing to be an auto-slave to the grinding machine. I need to do something, so thank you for that. Now I will top off at 1.80. Thanks.

    I was conflicted here. I wanted to bet more but thought a check was in order for possible bets for value on later streets. But with texture, I couldn't really risk it, so I compromised with a 1/2 pot bet, to ease him along.

    As played, I tend to flat or fold facing a check raise. I can flat when I have value and odds to draw, which leaves villain's bluffs in his range that he may continue with. We can then get it in on good turn cards where villain may be compelled to call with a chunk of his range that we beat. - I will write this in my notes as I would like to review it from time to time, as I can picture it.
  13. #13
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I usually top off around $1.65 to $1.50. I know doing it manually has the difference between doubling from $3 to $4. I just like to mentally keep up with my BR better than auto topping random amounts out of my stash. I have lost a dollar on my big hands over and over, yet am not willing to be an auto-slave to the grinding machine. I need to do something, so thank you for that. Now I will top off at 1.80. Thanks.

    I was conflicted here. I wanted to bet more but thought a check was in order for possible bets for value on later streets. But with texture, I couldn't really risk it, so I compromised with a 1/2 pot bet, to ease him along.

    As played, I tend to flat or fold facing a check raise. I can flat when I have value and odds to draw, which leaves villain's bluffs in his range that he may continue with. We can then get it in on good turn cards where villain may be compelled to call with a chunk of his range that we beat. - I will write this in my notes as I would like to review it from time to time, as I can picture it.
    I didn't play with you last night although I did take a good 700 or so hands on WPN. I spent more time on studying and further customizing my hud. I did notice a couple of things pertaining to you, though:

    1) Do top up as suggested. Don't go in $2NL with $1.65. Trust me, you're just losing value over time and you're putting a target on your back as 9/10 times the player at the table with the short stack is a fish in the micros.

    2) Are you using a HUD? If you aren't, I strongly suggest you look into using PT4 on WPN. Literally everyone we're playing against is running a souped up version of PT4 or HM2 w/ NoteCaddy and you simply can't afford to not have the same information available to you. Not on WPN.

    3) How are you doing @ 2NL? I'm doing better than I've ever done on there but it's the result of a ton of study/review/play. In 10,000 hands or so I probably threw away 3 BI's to spew but that was right when I started playing again at the beginning of the month. That hasn't happened anymore and now my graph is going up. Over the last few thousand up I'm several bb's/100.

    4) The main reason I wasn't at any of your tables yesterday was that you need to table select better. You were at tables which had one or no fish at them while there were 6max tables running with 2 and 3 fish at them. You absolutely need to sit at the right tables or else it is going to be very, very hard to make enough profit to move up any time soon. It's crucial.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-18-2017 at 08:11 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

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  14. #14
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    How are you judging that fish are at the table. Any info I have is Players to the flop. The average pot button doesn't work and always reads zero.
  15. #15
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    How are you judging that fish are at the table. Any info I have is Players to the flop. The average pot button doesn't work and always reads zero.
    Get a large enough sample size on enough of the 2NL playerbase and tag them using the actual game client. I use green but it doesn't matter. This way, when you look at the list of games running, you can see how many fish/whales are at each table. Eventually, you'll just know them by name. They stick out huge on WPN.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    How are you judging that fish are at the table.
    Get a HUD. If you don't have at least one complete idiot at the table with 35+ VPIP... leave. I don't care if it's NL2 or NL200. OFC it's not 2008 anymore but there are still a ton of recs and fun players just waiting to give you their money. You just have to find them. Bumhunting ftw
  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Get a large enough sample size on enough of the 2NL playerbase and tag them using the actual game client. I use green but it doesn't matter. This way, when you look at the list of games running, you can see how many fish/whales are at each table. Eventually, you'll just know them by name. They stick out huge on WPN.
    Thanks. I thought that must be reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarGrinder View Post
    Get a HUD. If you don't have at least one complete idiot at the table with 35+ VPIP... leave. I don't care if it's NL2 or NL200. OFC it's not 2008 anymore but there are still a ton of recs and fun players just waiting to give you their money. You just have to find them. Bumhunting ftw
    I have driveHUD because of cheap price, yet once BR can take the hit I plan to upgrade. I had PT1 back in the day and loved it during testing.
  18. #18
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I have driveHUD because of cheap price, yet once BR can take the hit I plan to upgrade. I had PT1 back in the day and loved it during testing.
    PT4 small stakes (all you need. It goes up to 25NL or 50NL, all other features the same) is $59.99 and offers a free trial. HM2 is overly expensive and a bit dated at this point but still really good for post game analysis. You can trial them both and use PT4 at the tables and HM2 for analysis. This way you'll also see which setup you like more. I'm next to positive you'll stick with PokerTracker but really, it's a totally worthy investment. NoteTracker, custom notes/stats, custom skins, all sorts of filtering options, etc. It's just invaluable for improvement.

    A few years ago when I first started playing I went through the same thing as you. Money was tight and I had to scrape together whatever I could. I will say that in this industry, you absolutely get what you pay for the large majority of the time. A lot of the software out there is brilliant and when you spend money on the right coaching videos, you'll understand the game on a higher level right away.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    PT4 small stakes (all you need. It goes up to 25NL or 50NL, all other features the same) is $59.99 and offers a free trial. HM2 is overly expensive and a bit dated at this point but still really good for post game analysis. You can trial them both and use PT4 at the tables and HM2 for analysis. This way you'll also see which setup you like more. I'm next to positive you'll stick with PokerTracker but really, it's a totally worthy investment. NoteTracker, custom notes/stats, custom skins, all sorts of filtering options, etc. It's just invaluable for improvement.

    A few years ago when I first started playing I went through the same thing as you. Money was tight and I had to scrape together whatever I could. I will say that in this industry, you absolutely get what you pay for the large majority of the time. A lot of the software out there is brilliant and when you spend money on the right coaching videos, you'll understand the game on a higher level right away.
    Thanks for mini-review. Registered at PokerStrategy.com and put you down as referral. Hope BigSlickBaby works?
  20. #20
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    Thanks for mini-review. Registered at PokerStrategy.com and put you down as referral. Hope BigSlickBaby works?
    Thanks. It's "TakingAShot" over at PokerStrategy.com. If you email them or send an admin a message I'm sure they'll fix it. There actually is a pretty lucrative refer a friend program over there so I'd greatly appreciate it.

    The content on there is fantastic and absolutely perfect for where you're at. Trust me, if you really dig into that material and apply the concepts at the table (especially the mental game), you WILL improve quickly. There's just no question. The only other training site that's on that level today is RedChipPoker and I think a ton of that material would just be way over your head at this point. Still, they do offer a 1 week free trial so it really couldn't hurt to check it out.

    I would avoid 2p2 at this point. The advice over there, as well as the community as a whole, has degraded tremendously. Most of the guys posting advice in the micro/small stakes cash games threads either haven't played in over a year (even more in some cases) or just aren't winning players so they spend their time on the forums, instead. There are also trolls there who give you horrific advice on purpose because they play in the same games as you. FlopTurnRiver, PokerStrategy, and RedChipPoker are a cut above the rest. RunItOnce deserves a mention, too. They have an essential package for $10 USD a month but the overwhelming majority of their content is for mid and high stakes online players so I decided I don't need it yet.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-21-2017 at 02:01 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Thanks. It's "TakingAShot" over at PokerStrategy.com. If you email them or send an admin a message I'm sure they'll fix it. There actually is a pretty lucrative refer a friend program over there so I'd greatly appreciate it.

    The content on there is fantastic and absolutely perfect for where you're at. Trust me, if you really dig into that material and apply the concepts at the table (especially the mental game), you WILL improve quickly. There's just no question. The only other training site that's on that level today is RedChipPoker and I think a ton of that material would just be way over your head at this point. Still, they do offer a 1 week free trial so it really couldn't hurt to check it out.

    I would avoid 2p2 at this point. The advice over there, as well as the community as a whole, has degraded tremendously. Most of the guys posting advice in the micro/small stakes cash games threads either haven't played in over a year (even more in some cases) or just aren't winning players so they spend their time on the forums, instead. There are also trolls there who give you horrific advice on purpose because they play in the same games as you. FlopTurnRiver, PokerStrategy, and RedChipPoker are a cut above the rest. RunItOnce deserves a mention, too. They have an essential package for $10 USD a month but the overwhelming majority of their content is for mid and high stakes online players so I decided I don't need it yet.
    Thanks for the scoop. I'll see what I can do about referral for ya.
  22. #22
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    Thanks for the scoop. I'll see what I can do about referral for ya.
    I don't know if you did this or not (I haven't heard anything) but I have to be totally honest: I'm already moving on from PS.com. I'm 5 days under a full month on the site and a ton of the material is just too basic at this point. It's gotten to where I'm correcting 25NL player's HH's and explaining different concepts to them. There's something seriously wrong with that.

    I have 2 days left on my RedChipPoker trial and I'm going to stick with it for $50/mo. The other thing I might get this weekend is Upswing Poker's video package on post flop play. RCP and Upswing Poker are both absolutely amazing sites with high level thinkers and all of the material is either right on the cutting edge of theory or creating brand new theory itself.





    Things have changed drastically for me. As you can see from the yellow line, I've actually been running bad lately and have been on a huge upswing at the same time.




    I'm @ +1.07 bb/100 over 6,559 hands this month and my all in adjusted is +3.02 bb/100. Before anyone says it: I know I shouldn't even look at those numbers and until just now, I hadn't. I'm taking them back off of my report configuration. Beats are part of the game and there's really no need to adjust your results. They are what they are. Everyone takes beats so your true bb/100 is all that matters. The 2NL whales are just cake now and the regs who were pushing me all over the place at the beginning of the month are now easily exploitable. I'm just going to keep my motivation, hard work, and dedication to the game up while also keeping any expectations or entitlement out of my mind.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.

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