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2NL As Kc Hand-typed HH

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  1. #1
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    Default 2NL As Kc Hand-typed HH

    UTG/Hero: $2.09 , 27 / 9/ 39 / CB 81 / FCB 55 / 31582 hands - (As,Kc) open raises .07
    MP: folds
    CO: $3.79, 25 / 21 / 43 / CB 61 / FCB 30 / 1591 hands - calls
    BU: $2.02, 18 / 14 / 24 / CB 49 / FCB 70 / 2956 hands - calls
    SB: folds
    BB: $2.73, 56 / 25 / AGG 0.0 / CB 0.0 / FCB 0.0 / 16 hands - calls
    Flop: (6c, 4h, Qd) (pot .29)
    BB: checks
    Hero: checks
    CO: checks
    BU: checks

    HH was corrupted, missing values, so I had to type it out the best I could. Really wanted your thoughts on this one. Thoughts on way I played so far; especially my CB opportunity, per my usual HH motif . I will post my thoughts on why I did't CB. Also you may have noticed that my stats are based on all my hands and not table session stats. I don't know how to change this, but would love to. I will also post the rest of the hand as usual. Should I stop posting spoilers as it could lead to results oriented comments?
  2. #2
    27/9 seems really off to me, the 27 is probably a bit too high for you and the 9 is far too low.

    I don't really have a problem with results that are posted in spoilers, probably best not to though.

    Hand seems fine so far, you'll have a much better time posting your thoughts on it before everyone else posts their thoughts. I don't see that much benefit to you doing it the other way around.
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Looks fine to me.

    C-bets are overrated unless heads-up on the flop. In multi-way pots, odds are someone has at least a pair, and there's no need to try to bluff 3 people at once. Only one of them has to get sticky, and you're burning monies.
  4. #4
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    27/9 over 30k hands is poor. You're probably calling vs raises too much, not 3betting enough, and/or limping too much.

    This hand here, you have AK, you raise, get calls, flop misses, you're asking to cbet or not. Don't, you got 3 callers, including two apparently solid players, plus a fish, someone is likely to call a cbet. I'm assuming you know this already, hence the lack of bet. This is a pretty simple hand, there's not much to learn here. If you're struggling to get away from AK when it misses, then sure, post these hands. Doesn't look like you have a problem in this regard.

    You need to improve your pre flop range, and how you play it. Rather than posting hands that are no brainers pre flop (ie raise AK) post hands where you can potentially justify all three options... fold, call, raise. That's where you're going to get better discussions, with perhaps conflicting opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
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    Easiest flop check ever, wp.
  6. #6
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    PF - As Kc for me, bets .07. When CO calls, who is a tricky Reg, I sighed knowing he just may call with anything here just for position. BU calls, who is a tighter solid type, that likely has a hand worth seeing the flop, and not just pulling a position move, although be bought it. BB calls, and I put him on a drawing hand, likely anything suited would work for him with all the cheap action before him. Looser than normal at the table.
    Flop - (6c, 4h, Qd) Check to me was standard play. CBing against 1 other is hairy enough, but against 3 no way. And to second that motion was the fact that CO FCB is 30%. Probably 1 of the V's that exploits my tendency to bet the flop and x/f the turn. Starting to work on that.
  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    27/9 over 30k hands is poor. You're probably calling vs raises too much, not 3betting enough, and/or limping too much.

    This hand here, you have AK, you raise, get calls, flop misses, you're asking to cbet or not. Don't, you got 3 callers, including two apparently solid players, plus a fish, someone is likely to call a cbet. I'm assuming you know this already, hence the lack of bet. This is a pretty simple hand, there's not much to learn here. If you're struggling to get away from AK when it misses, then sure, post these hands. Doesn't look like you have a problem in this regard.

    You need to improve your pre flop range, and how you play it. Rather than posting hands that are no brainers pre flop (ie raise AK) post hands where you can potentially justify all three options... fold, call, raise. That's where you're going to get better discussions, with perhaps conflicting opinions.
    First of all, that you for your analysis. But I think you are a little premature to reprimand me for posting frivolous posts. I am new to the site and have posted close to 10 HH's already. If you read those, you will see that is not my intent. I am working on SpoonItNow's course. I stated with CB's, so a few threads back, I began posting the hand in 2 portions; PF to flop and then the rest of the hand. So keeping along those established lines, I posted thread this up to the flop first as usual. If I had posted the whole thing outright, it is possible that the complete hand may have unintentionally changed views on the flop action. What I really want is opinions the rest of the hand. Place for value-bet the river and anything else that someone thinks not frivolous. Give me a change please. I try not ton aggravate. Only asking for help.
  8. #8
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    Turn: (Qh) (pot .29)

    BB: check
    Hero: bet .14
    CO: fold
    BU: fold
    BB: calls

    River: (3d) (pot .57)

    BB: checks
    Hero: checks
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    First of all, that you for your analysis. But I think you are a little premature to reprimand me for posting frivolous posts. I am new to the site and have posted close to 10 HH's already. If you read those, you will see that is not my intent. I am working on SpoonItNow's course. I stated with CB's, so a few threads back, I began posting the hand in 2 portions; PF to flop and then the rest of the hand. So keeping along those established lines, I posted thread this up to the flop first as usual. If I had posted the whole thing outright, it is possible that the complete hand may have unintentionally changed views on the flop action. What I really want is opinions the rest of the hand. Place for value-bet the river and anything else that someone thinks not frivolous. Give me a change please. I try not ton aggravate. Only asking for help.
    Having an 80% c-bet at 2nl isn't a problem, it might not be optimal but it's not going to be bad. ESPECIALLY when you're only raising 9% of hands, your holdings on the flop are going to be strong by default because you open such a tight range. Which is why sorting your pre-flop ranges out so they aren't awful (which they are) is much more important. Then your c-bet will naturally drop because you'll have more weaker hands on flops that you won't want to bet.

    Two birds, one stone.

    It's really important to realise that our pre-flop ranges dictate so much what we are doing. Not only do the effect all our other decisions but because we make those decisions most often the amount we win/lose as a result is huge. Which brings us to another important point that plugging your biggest leaks (your pre-flop ranges) is more important than plugging smaller leakes (your c-bet%)

    You're also letting stats dictate to you what you're doing which is completely the wrong way to go about it. Stats may point to a problem but if someone tells you x is good and you're doing y making arbitrary decisions to get closer to x is really bad instead look at your game and analyse why you're at y.
    Last edited by Savy; 06-23-2017 at 07:31 AM.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    Turn: (Qh) (pot .29)

    BB: check
    Hero: bet .14
    CO: fold
    BU: fold
    BB: calls

    River: (3d) (pot .57)

    BB: checks
    Hero: checks
    Betting here is trash for the same reason betting the flop was trash. You may think that your fold equity has gone up slightly because everyone checked the flop and this may be true but it's not got up anywhere near enough to make this profitable.
    Last edited by Savy; 06-23-2017 at 08:26 AM.
  11. #11
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    Turn: (Qh) (pot .29) BB checks. The Q could be in either players' range, although I would guess BB to be more of a lower end range on this board. Second Q is a good card for me; most lkely no one has Q. Only person I think could be holding a Q would be BB, slow playing a Q-low kicker, that he worriedly checked flop with. Guys in positon likely would have at least wanted to lower the field and bet flop. So I decide to play my hand and bet 1/2 pot. CO and BU both fold. BB check/calls.

    River: (3d) (pot .57) BB checks, I check. The check/call had me jumping at shadows. But I should have realized that he likely had no Q. If he did, he almost certainly would have check/raised turn or lead the river; not letting me checkdown hand. But being a looser player, he could also have played a busted heart draw the way he did. I could also see a 64s that missed its c/r attempt on the flop and got counterfeited on turn. He likely wouldn't check the river with set. A 75s, for a rivered straight is in his range. No 52s would even be played by this player. He's not hyper-loose. Any mid pair or lower could be there, but likely not played as passively. A small sample of 6x and 4x hands could remain. But I think with ruling hands and actions out, I missed an opportunity for a bluff on the river, that would drop most of his remain, slightly better hands, yet still quite weak. I dragged in the pot against BB and he mucked face down.

    What do you think of my post hand analysis? Missing anything? How do you think I should have played the money streets and bet-sizing on turn? Another check or bet?Larger turn bet size? Check second Q, safe, although I would have no idea where was in the hand, and would just likely to give more free cards to beat me? Thoughts and tips.
    Last edited by Mcash2; 06-23-2017 at 08:52 AM.
  12. #12
    You missed a value bet with Ace high King kicker?

    Turn is a really dry card so if villain did have a queen x/r isn't all that great a thing to do because it's only possible for you to have 1 queen so most of the time you don't and he's not going to be all that scared of anything in your range.
  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Having an 80% c-bet at 2nl isn't a problem, it might not be optimal but it's not going to be bad. ESPECIALLY when you're only raising 9% of hands, your holdings on the flop are going to be strong by default because you open such a tight range. Which is why sorting your pre-flop ranges out so they aren't awful (which they are) is much more important. Then your c-bet will naturally drop because you'll have more weaker hands on flops that you won't want to bet.
    Makes sense Savy. Obviously if I'm only raising nit hands, then surely I'm likely to CB more frequently with those hands, and skew my CB stats upward. I'm finding it hard to raise from UTG with things like AJs, ATs, and KJs. I have lost big hands the past with them being dominated. But that just goes to show that I also have some big post-flop leaks that need shoring. I am going to play those type hands that I fear, and play them very conservatively at first. Honestly. Starting now.
  14. #14
    Although id open those hands it's much more likely you aren't opening enough hands in later positions. It's also about understanding having AJs on the button and playing against bb if you ht an ace on the flop you're hand is really stong. If the same thing happens but you're UTG then you aren't really strong, in fact it's probably a upper mid level hand in your range (obviously the other cards are important.

    That all becomes more relevant as you get better but understanding relative hand strength as opposed to absolute hand strength is important and is probably the result of a lot of your biggest mistakes postflop. As it is all beginners.
  15. #15
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    First of all, that you for your analysis. But I think you are a little premature to reprimand me for posting frivolous posts. I am new to the site and have posted close to 10 HH's already. If you read those, you will see that is not my intent. I am working on SpoonItNow's course. I stated with CB's, so a few threads back, I began posting the hand in 2 portions; PF to flop and then the rest of the hand. So keeping along those established lines, I posted thread this up to the flop first as usual. If I had posted the whole thing outright, it is possible that the complete hand may have unintentionally changed views on the flop action. What I really want is opinions the rest of the hand. Place for value-bet the river and anything else that someone thinks not frivolous. Give me a change please. I try not ton aggravate. Only asking for help.
    I didn't intend to reprimand you, I'm just trying to help you. You can post what you like, it's just it seems to me you have problems pre flop. I think it's better for you to focus primarily on your pre flop range, when you've done that then you'll probably find post flop decision to be easier and more natural. That's just my opinion and you're welcome to disregard it all you like.

    But please don't assume that if someone has critisism and/or advice, that it's a reprimand. I'm just another guy here, with my own opinion. That I'm a mod means nothing, I'm not telling you what to do or giving you a bollocking for posting hands I don't think are useful, I'm just sharing my thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I didn't intend to reprimand you, I'm just trying to help you. You can post what you like, it's just it seems to me you have problems pre flop. I think it's better for you to focus primarily on your pre flop range, when you've done that then you'll probably find post flop decision to be easier and more natural. That's just my opinion and you're welcome to disregard it all you like.

    But please don't assume that if someone has critisism and/or advice, that it's a reprimand. I'm just another guy here, with my own opinion. That I'm a mod means nothing, I'm not telling you what to do or giving you a bollocking for posting hands I don't think are useful, I'm just sharing my thoughts.
    I agree with your PF assessment and am currently adjusting. Sorry for getting bent out of shape; a little high-strung. Must realize though, if I'm supposed to be focusing on CB hands in my training, then with so little actions to that point in hand, a ton of discussion might not be gleaned. But that action decides how the rest of the hand plays out, which everyone then focuses on, and helps me to understand why checking or CBing in a specific hand is optimal and standard sometimes. I have actually found you very helpful and insightful in the threads where you responded.
  17. #17
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Why don't you start a thread on pre-flop ranges, Mcash2?

    It seems a few of us think you'd benefit from the discussion.

    I posted some suggested pre-flop ranges in a recent thread, but it was kind of a derail, so I'm not surprised that it didn't spur a discussion.

    I can conceive of reasons to have a low PFR, with a 27 VPIP, but it's not likely that you're facing that at the micros. Your pre-flop 3-betting ranges are almost certainly way too tight, and you're probably opening too wide UTG and MP. Both of those positions should be less than 10% ranges, even for a LAG player, IMO. Let's talk about why that is.
  18. #18
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    I open anywhere between 15-20% UTG and MP at 6max depending on stakes. There's nothing wrong with playing tighter though, just pointing out that it can be profitable to play looser at NL25 and below.

    https://gyazo.com/018bd044fca15c66a0d894ad0ecf1fe0
  19. #19
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    UTG 6max is basically MP, we can and should be wider than UTG full ring.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    UTG 6max is basically MP, we can and should be wider than UTG full ring.
    Yeah as soon as I posted that I realized he was talking about FR. Oh well.
  21. #21
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    You can't play at 27/9 in those games, dude. Further, you didn't even post the 3b stat. That one's a little important, as is fold to 3b.

    The fact is that these are simple hands and you need to go back to the beginning and reconstruct your foundation. If you're losing at 20+ bb/100 @ 2NL on that network and playing at 27/9, it means you're just not getting it at all. As I keep telling you: You keep referring to "x hand in y situation" as opposed to "x range vs y range". Until you start understanding that, you're going to struggle greatly in today's games.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarGrinder View Post
    Yeah as soon as I posted that I realized he was talking about FR. Oh well.
    I just noticed it was a FR hand, too. Still, 27/9 is just not going to cut it.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

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  23. #23
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarGrinder View Post
    I open anywhere between 15-20% UTG and MP at 6max depending on stakes. There's nothing wrong with playing tighter though, just pointing out that it can be profitable to play looser at NL25 and below.

    https://gyazo.com/018bd044fca15c66a0d894ad0ecf1fe0
    All this shows is that it's possible to turn a profit with such wide ranges. It doesn't show that this maximizes profit.

    I.e. it's not clear if you'd be winning more or less from those positions if you tightened up your ranges.

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