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2NL: Checkraised On Turn Holding KK

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  1. #1
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Default 2NL: Checkraised On Turn Holding KK

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    UTG: $2.02 (VPIP: 18.45, PFR: 11.65, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 112)
    Hero (CO): $2.30
    BTN: $2.90 (VPIP: 68.18, PFR: 22.73, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 22)
    SB: $2.00 (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 16.07, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 114)
    BB: $4.96 (VPIP: 69.44, PFR: 38.89, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 72)

    SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K K

    fold, Hero raises to $0.06, fold, fold, BB calls $0.04

    Flop: ($0.13, 2 players) 7 6 T
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.13, BB calls $0.13

    Turn: ($0.39, 2 players) J
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.19, BB raises to $0.54, Hero ???

    As you can see from his stats, villain was an absolute maniac. I've never seen people play on WPN like they were at this table (and a couple of others tonight). Villain had already won all ins by shoving with K and A high on the flop/turn. As said, I've never seen anything like it before this. I got into this spot with him and ...well, you tell me and then I'll post the results, as well as my thought process.

    Thanks
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-20-2017 at 07:54 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  2. #2
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    It's a no brainer shove and you shouldn't feel bad if he calls and wins. You're printing money here, just reload, make a note and be patient.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Villain had already won all ins by shoving with K and A high on the flop/turn. As said, I've never seen anything like it before this. I got into this spot with him


    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    well, you tell me and then I'll post the results, as well as my thought process.
    We've been lucky to have our crew here at FTR mostly ignore you posting results, but I absolutely think you shouldn't post them.
    (I, personally, never click your spoilers and never look at the results of your hands.)

    Poker is a game of making the right decisions, but the outcome of those decisions is strongly driven by random variables. As such, the exact result of any situation is trivial. Villain's exact holdings are trivial. What matters is your impression of Villain's range and whether or not your actions maximized your value playing against that villain's ranges.

    When I was actively grinding, I wouldn't even watch the results of an all-in hand. I'd shove, and click the re-buy to full on my chips, and then ignore the table while I focused on another table's action. It really doesn't matter whether I won or lost that hand. What matters is that I put Villain on a range and I acted as best I could, given that information.
  4. #4
    The fact he's bluff jammed flops and turns before, but raising smaller this time around seems concerning. I likely call turn in play and assess river based on villain's sizing, but not folding at all if the river is 6, 7 or K.

    We have a lot of hands better than KK that can call turn and potentially river against a maniac though, so we should bare that in mind. Calling down against a maniac with an example like this is great for beginning to "solve" a hand from the angle of being unexploitable i.e. if I bet flop and turn with x number of combos, what do I mathematically need to call versus a turn raise. Then work out where KK fits into that, including on different rivers facing a jam. That will take you a while to figure out though.
  5. #5
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    The fact he's bluff jammed flops and turns before, but raising smaller this time around seems concerning.
    I agree, and this crossed my mind, however it's not enough of a concern for me to actually find a fold here.

    If villain is getting called when he shoves, he may be adjusting his bluffs to leave some behind. On the other hand, this could be a huge tell, one which we can exploit... but only if we actually see his hand.

    So yeah, no brainer shove. At worst we get a really useful bit of info.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    I wanted to shove. I was so close to doing so but I just thought his range smashed that board and when I did some Flopzilla work later on, I saw that the J on the turn drops me to nearly a 50/50 spot with him.



    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    UTG: $2.02 (VPIP: 18.45, PFR: 11.65, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 112)
    Hero (CO): $2.30
    BTN: $2.90 (VPIP: 68.18, PFR: 22.73, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 22)
    SB: $2.00 (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 16.07, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 114)
    BB: $4.96 (VPIP: 69.44, PFR: 38.89, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 72)

    SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K K

    fold, Hero raises to $0.06, fold, fold, BB calls $0.04

    Flop: ($0.13, 2 players) 7 6 T
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.13, BB calls $0.13

    Turn: ($0.39, 2 players) J
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.19, BB raises to $0.54, fold

    BB wins $0.74
    Rake paid $0.03

    I just thought that there was going to be a far better spot to stack this fish than this one, especially considering his play up to that point. His turn c/r bet sizing concerned me also and I really feel like I was beat here. Anyway, just a few hands later this happened:

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    BTN: $2.00 (VPIP: 18.69, PFR: 11.22, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 116)
    Hero (SB): $2.00
    BB: $2.15 (VPIP: 68.00, PFR: 28.00, 3Bet Preflop: 21.43, Hands: 25)
    UTG: $2.00 (VPIP: 21.55, PFR: 15.52, 3Bet Preflop: 10.64, Hands: 118)
    MP: $8.65 (VPIP: 71.05, PFR: 38.16, 3Bet Preflop: 23.53, Hands: 76)
    CO: $2.00 (VPIP: 20.73, PFR: 18.29, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 86)

    Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K K

    fold, MP calls $0.02, fold, BTN raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.36, BB raises to $2.15 and is all-in, fold, fold, Hero calls $1.64 and is all-in

    Flop: ($4.10, 2 players) 2 T 9

    Turn: ($4.10, 2 players) T

    River: ($4.10, 2 players) 3

    Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Tens)
    (Pre 71%, Flop 87%, Turn 93%)
    BB shows A 4 (One Pair, Tens)
    (Pre 29%, Flop 13%, Turn 7%)
    Hero wins $3.90
    Rake paid $0.14

    $0.06 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

    And then just a little bit later:

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    SB: $2.80 (VPIP: 39.47, PFR: 14.47, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 77)
    Hero (BB): $2.05
    UTG: $2.43 (VPIP: 18.29, PFR: 16.46, 3Bet Preflop: 8.45, Hands: 167)
    CO: $5.64 (VPIP: 45.95, PFR: 31.08, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 77)
    BTN: $4.54 (VPIP: 32.62, PFR: 24.82, 3Bet Preflop: 11.67, Hands: 147)

    SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K K

    fold, CO raises to $0.07, BTN raises to $0.19, fold, Hero raises to $2.05 and is all-in, CO raises to $5.64 and is all-in, fold

    Flop: ($4.30, 2 players) 7 4 2

    Turn: ($4.30, 2 players) 2

    River: ($4.30, 2 players) 9

    Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Twos)
    (Pre 81%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
    CO shows T T (Two Pair, Tens and Twos)
    (Pre 19%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
    Hero wins $4.09
    Rake paid $0.15

    $0.06 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


    Poker has a lot in common with baseball statistically and in the kind of occurrences you see due to the large sample sizes and variance involved. I hadn't gotten action on KK or AA in over a week and then boom - one after another.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-21-2017 at 01:50 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  7. #7
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    The fact he's bluff jammed flops and turns before, but raising smaller this time around seems concerning. I likely call turn in play and assess river based on villain's sizing, but not folding at all if the river is 6, 7 or K.

    We have a lot of hands better than KK that can call turn and potentially river against a maniac though, so we should bare that in mind. Calling down against a maniac with an example like this is great for beginning to "solve" a hand from the angle of being unexploitable i.e. if I bet flop and turn with x number of combos, what do I mathematically need to call versus a turn raise. Then work out where KK fits into that, including on different rivers facing a jam. That will take you a while to figure out though.
    I either had to jam that turn or fold because calling would have been terrible. I can't call that turn and then fold the river so it's fit or fold as played. That was the other reason I folded. I didn't want to throw my stack in the middle with roughly ~53% equity when this guy would probably just donate his money to me in a few hands anyway.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  8. #8
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post



    We've been lucky to have our crew here at FTR mostly ignore you posting results, but I absolutely think you shouldn't post them.
    (I, personally, never click your spoilers and never look at the results of your hands.)

    Poker is a game of making the right decisions, but the outcome of those decisions is strongly driven by random variables. As such, the exact result of any situation is trivial. Villain's exact holdings are trivial. What matters is your impression of Villain's range and whether or not your actions maximized your value playing against that villain's ranges.

    I wouldn't even watch the results of an all-in hand. I'd shove, and click the re-buy to full on my chips, and then ignore the table while I focused on another table's action.
    Of course, it's only 2NL but you can (and I have in the past) bled money here on WPN. I'm also playing 4NL on BOL and played quite a bit of $2 up through $7 HUSNG's last month. There were $-40 and -$50 days but I got it all back on the cash tables. Even on those days, I was starting to do what you describe: Not even caring about the result once I made the decision because what's done is done and it's basically irrelevant until post session analysis. In the past, I would desperately stare at my all ins, praying villain doesn't hit his hand. On a lot of these hands now, I know pretty much what chance I have to win the all in and if it's like 70%+, I'm clicking off to another table. If I happen to notice the money slide back in my direction on that table, great. If it doesn't - what difference does it make? I made a good play.

    What I'll have to make sure of is that when I start moving up here and have -$200 days (and even more eventually), that I handle things the same way. By gradually progressing and exercising proper bankroll management, I think I'll be able to at this point in my life.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-21-2017 at 03:45 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    I either had to jam that turn or fold because calling would have been terrible. I can't call that turn and then fold the river so it's fit or fold as played. That was the other reason I folded. I didn't want to throw my stack in the middle with roughly ~53% equity when this guy would probably just donate his money to me in a few hands anyway.
    This logic is very bad. As a rule never turn down a profitable situation because you think a more profitable situation is on it's way. There are exceptions to this but they are very rare and you need to know and understand them before you implement them.
  10. #10
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    This logic is very bad. As a rule never turn down a profitable situation because you think a more profitable situation is on it's way. There are exceptions to this but they are very rare and you need to know and understand them before you implement them.
    I hear you on this. I actually reminded myself that one hand has nothing to do with a hypothetical hand coming in the future but with the clock ticking and having to make a decision to shove/fold, I just felt very comfortable with this fold at that time. That said, of course it's better to get two stacks instead of one. I've started to look at the size of a stack in bb's and not $$ more this month and it's helped in some ways. 100 bbs in 1 hand is just an incredible jolt to the winrate if you're already in the process of plugging leaks. Some of the PS.com videos have taught me how to boost my winrate by scooping up numerous small pots from certain types of players over time and then right - finally hitting something like one of the KK hands in this thread and just skyrocketing your bbs/100.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-21-2017 at 04:36 PM.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    This logic is very bad. As a rule never turn down a profitable situation because you think a more profitable situation is on it's way. There are exceptions to this but they are very rare and you need to know and understand them before you implement them.
    Exactly. There's same thing to be said in cash games for taking a marginal gamble against a fish if you can bust him before the others do. Quite often you get the dream scenario where the fish busts in 5 minutes and keeps tilt reloading and open jamming. I try not to think too much at the point about what their degen status is doing for the rest of their life. It's one of the reasons I don't enjoy live poker - you get to see it first hand.

    You should also be happy to get it in 50:50 when there's already money in the pot every single time, barring absurd rake and a tiny bankroll.

    PS: jamming or folding arent the only options. You could argue that jamming the nut straight would be bad unless you're 100% confident he isn't bluffing or capable of folding. You'll also want to call the turn raise with your big draws, pair plus draws, maybe sets, etc. Calling turn and folding river would be fine with some part of that turn calling range.

    PPS: don't be scared of getting it in behind sometimes for 100bb+. It's inevitable and playing good poker will make that necessary sometimes.
  12. #12
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree there's reasons why we could just call the turn. Seeing a river here with 2:1 pot odds and nearly 100bb behind is not bad considering we're drawing pretty well to beat JT (8 outs), and considering he can be overplaying pair+draw combos like J9. I think folding is premature here. Sure, we're dead to 89, and drawing thin vs sets, but these hands should be raising flop, especially aggro donks like this guy.

    His range seems to me precisely JT or bluffs. Calling turn might actually be the best option here. We can clean him out when the board pairs to the 6 or 7, or when we hit a king, and we can just call any reasonable river bet to bust his bluffs and overplayed Jx. We can still fold river if he overbets.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    J7 is in his range too, so we should actually be a little careful vs a river 7. We can call because we can beat JT, which would be more likely, but raising a river 7 is risky.

    A river 6 is different, I'd be stacking that vs his JT/J7.

    Also, I think I can call a river T because he's more likely now to have J7 than JT.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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