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2NL B-B-B-C Line When Spiked River

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  1. #1
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    Default 2NL B-B-B-C Line When Spiked River

    Winning Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Winning Poker Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

    SB ($2)
    BB ($2.51)
    UTG ($2.63)
    MP ($5.59)
    CO ($2.03)
    Hero (Button) ($2)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, A
    3 folds, Hero raises $0.07, 1 fold, BB calls $0.05

    Flop: ($0.15) 9, K, 6 (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.07, BB calls $0.07

    Turn: ($0.29) Q (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $0.14, BB calls $0.14

    River: ($0.57) A (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero checks

    Total pot: $0.57 | Rake: $0.02

    Results below:
    Spoiler:

    Hero had 5, A (one pair, Aces).
    BB didn't show
    Outcome: Hero won $0.55


    How did I play this hand?
  2. #2
    Bet sizing tends to be on the small side a lot. Turn bet doesn't really accomplish much and us a better card for him than you. Id x turn and river, never betting river as played.
  3. #3
    If we're barrelling this particular hand then we're massively over bluffing, which is problematic for our strategy and likely to be bad at 2nl. I'd recommend under bluffing at 2nl, especially on this particular turn card where the second barrel is always getting called. You could continue to semi bluff draws and mix with AK and 2pr+ for value. Interested in your sizing and how that also fits into your strategy and whether you're sizing changes based in the strength of your holding.

    As played, betting river for thin value.
  4. #4
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    If we're barreling the turn as a bluff then we need to a) likely choose a larger bet size, and b) have a solid read on his fold frequency in regards to his flop continuing range. You're not folding out much really and the only thing you're getting value from is flush draws and like 87. Cbetting flop is ok but checking back turn is completely standard. As played, I prob bet/fold river for thin value... something like 32c.
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    It's always about ranges and equities.

    The bet OTT may be the best play, if Villain's range is imbalanced to get to that spot.

    What's Villain's range to check OTT?
    What's Villain's range to continue to Hero's bet OTT?

    EV = 0.29*(fold % of Villain's range) + (call % of Villain's range)*(0.43*(hero's equity to win when called) - 0.14(hero's equity to lose when called) + (raise % of Villain's range)((win amount)(probability of win) - (lose amount)(probability of lose))


    Our gut tells us what to do in the moment, but our math tells us how to gut in future moments.
  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Bet sizing tends to be on the small side a lot. Turn bet doesn't really accomplish much and us a better card for him than you. Id x turn and river, never betting river as played.
    That's what I was thinking here. Simply check down on that turn and river board after villain calls your flop cbet.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Bet sizing tends to be on the small side a lot. Turn bet doesn't really accomplish much and us a better card for him than you. Id x turn and river, never betting river as played.
    Because it was a blind steal attempt and I got called, plus only had an over to board, I decided to double barrel at that moment. Therefore, since all I had currently was the lead, keeping the flop bet lower at half pot, would make my turn CB cheaper, yet hopefully still effective. 1/2 pot is an average CB I believe, so I don't understand why you think all my bets are small.

    I see that you think my river check was ok. Even though I hit, he called the whole way, and I have is TPWK.
  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    If we're barrelling this particular hand then we're massively over bluffing, which is problematic for our strategy and likely to be bad at 2nl. I'd recommend under bluffing at 2nl, especially on this particular turn card where the second barrel is always getting called. You could continue to semi bluff draws and mix with AK and 2pr+ for value. Interested in your sizing and how that also fits into your strategy and whether you're sizing changes based in the strength of your holding.

    As played, betting river for thin value.
    I agree, but should I just check the flop in most cases. I was as likely to have the best hand PF when I tried to steal. I have to follow through right? Sometimes I would CB here 3/4 pot to buy it. This time I tried to buy cheaply or double barrel cheaply to buy it. Sometimes the turn card would make me back off and take a free card.

    I do get your point about 2NL stations not being the best to double and triple barrel. I will try to focus on your point when at the table.

    What do you mean turn that is always getting called? Reasoning please.

    I do change my bet sizes from 1/2 pot to pot based more on texture and how my opponent plays the hand, not merely based on my hand strength, yet not totally random either.

    Now, you suggest to value bet thinly yet I also have a call for restraint and to check it down on river. Why exactly do you feel you have the best of it please?
    Last edited by Mcash2; 06-18-2017 at 01:15 PM.
  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarGrinder View Post
    If we're barreling the turn as a bluff then we need to a) likely choose a larger bet size, and b) have a solid read on his fold frequency in regards to his flop continuing range. You're not folding out much really and the only thing you're getting value from is flush draws and like 87. Cbetting flop is ok but checking back turn is completely standard. As played, I prob bet/fold river for thin value... something like 32c.
    A- I agree. Hell 1/2 pot didn't do the trick the first time. Now on turn he has more money invested and Q probably didn't scare him the K didn't on the flop. So I should have ramped it up to 3/4 pot or so, I think. Or check B- I had no read if I remember.
  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    It's always about ranges and equities.

    The bet OTT may be the best play, if Villain's range is imbalanced to get to that spot.

    What's Villain's range to check OTT?
    What's Villain's range to continue to Hero's bet OTT?

    EV = 0.29*(fold % of Villain's range) + (call % of Villain's range)*(0.43*(hero's equity to win when called) - 0.14(hero's equity to lose when called) + (raise % of Villain's range)((win amount)(probability of win) - (lose amount)(probability of lose))


    Our gut tells us what to do in the moment, but our math tells us how to gut in future moments.
    This is way over my head. Meet you back here in a few months hopefully.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    Because it was a blind steal attempt and I got called, plus only had an over to board, I decided to double barrel at that moment. Therefore, since all I had currently was the lead, keeping the flop bet lower at half pot, would make my turn CB cheaper, yet hopefully still effective. 1/2 pot is an average CB I believe, so I don't understand why you think all my bets are small.

    I see that you think my river check was ok. Even though I hit, he called the whole way, and I have is TPWK.
    I'm probably wrong about the river, betting small is probably good as has been said.
  12. #12
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    CB-wise, is it ok to size smaller flop bets so turn bet is cheaper? Hey I'm thinking ahead.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    CB-wise, is it ok to size smaller flop bets so turn bet is cheaper? Hey I'm thinking ahead.
    Thinking about SPR is important yes but when you don't want to be betting the turn on like every possible card that can come out caring about your turn bet size is fairly unimportant.

    The reason you can c-bet a tonne at low microstakes is because people fold far too to c-bets so you can bet just about anything and make money in a vacuum. When people do call they become much less likely to fold period. I imagine when you look at hands where you have c-bet flop villains fold % will be much higher than villains fold % on the turn when you have c-bet the flop and turn.

    It's kind of the same reason that betting the river is probably good, villains tend to be passive and won't really play back at you & won't want to be letting go of basically any made hand.
    Last edited by Savy; 06-18-2017 at 04:34 PM.
  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Thinking about SPR is important yes but when you don't want to be betting the turn on like every possible card that can come out caring about your turn bet size is fairly unimportant.

    The reason you can c-bet a tonne at low microstakes is because people fold far too to c-bets so you can bet just about anything and make money in a vacuum. When people do call they become much less likely to fold period. I imagine when you look at hands where you have c-bet flop villains fold % will be much higher than villains fold % on the turn when you have c-bet the flop and turn.

    It's kind of the same reason that betting the river is probably good, villains tend to be passive and won't really play back at you & won't want to be letting go of basically any made hand.
    Cbetting is evolving rapidly again at this very moment. On the network he's playing on (WPN), people are not folding to cbet too much anymore and they are paying attention to exactly what boards you bet what sizing on when it comes to the flop. I was (but fixed it) getting check raised and jammed on the turn after they just called the flop cbet and raised the turn.

    On BetOnline, I can cbet 80%-100% profitably. On WPN, I'm down to about 60% tops. All the regs are cbetting and folding to cbet in the 50-65% range. It's extremely difficult but it's the best micros training we can get anywhere.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Cbetting is evolving rapidly again at this very moment. On the network he's playing on (WPN), people are not folding to cbet too much anymore and they are paying attention to exactly what boards you bet what sizing on when it comes to the flop. I was (but fixed it) getting check raised and jammed on the turn after they just called the flop cbet and raised the turn.

    On BetOnline, I can cbet 80%-100% profitably. On WPN, I'm down to about 60% tops. All the regs are cbetting and folding to cbet in the 50-65% range. It's extremely difficult but it's the best micros training we can get anywhere.
    You play 2nl on an american site, it's just not true. If it is you should stop playing poker because it will be impossible to build a bankroll.
  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    You play 2nl on an american site, it's just not true. If it is you should stop playing poker because it will be impossible to build a bankroll.
    Really, man ...I'm sorry but in this case you don't know what you're talking about. The mere fact that you said "you play 2nl on an American site" proves that. Right, and you don't play anything on any site right now let alone 2NL on WPN. What applied to you 4 years ago on a soft rec site doesn't apply to us in this case. Impossible to build a bankroll? Yes - On WPN, it is just about impossible to start with a $50 deposit and build a roll via cash games. It takes a *ton* of work. A lot of people who play 25NL+ on other networks simply can't get past 5NL on WPN. It's a totally different animal and you sometimes make extremely bold statements without having the personal experience to back them up. That's exactly what you're doing in this case. If you go start a 2NL bankroll challenge and cbet 80%+ of the time (which I guess is what you would do. That's all I can imagine "it's just not true" to mean since you didn't specify it yourself) with the rake structure the way it is, you're 100% correct. It would be impossible to build a roll. That's what the overwhelming majority of players are contending with in the micros on that network.

    If you take a solid, winning player at say 3 bb/100 on WPN @ 5NL, he could easily handle 25NL on Ignition and BetOnline. Any 25NL+ US player could vouch for this fully.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

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  17. #17
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    I would agree Slick. The juicy GT tourneys only real thing keeping me around, and I'm not even a tournament player. Very small sample size, so maybe I am just getting lucky on ACR.

    2NL comparison at those sites with over 20K hands each.

    BOL: 30706 hands / 12.10 BB/100 / VPIP 27 / PFR 9 / AGG 39 / AF 3.2 / CB 81.3

    ACR: 23363 hands / -11.39 BB/100 / VPIP 18 / PFR 9 / AGG 45 / AF 4.9 / CB 81.3

    A lot of strategy tweaks on both sites, but flop CB virtually the same across sites. (to continue) You will notice BB/100 is almost exact opposite across sites. Don't study this too much Slick. At this point rakeback and bonus isn't even keeping me afloat. Will stick it out for awhile though, for study sake, and knowing I will learn more here vs Regs.
  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I would agree Slick. The juicy GT tourneys only real thing keeping me around, and I'm not even a tournament player. Very small sample size, so maybe I am just getting lucky on ACR.

    2NL comparison at those sites with over 20K hands each.

    BOL: 30706 hands / 12.10 BB/100 / VPIP 27 / PFR 9 / AGG 39 / AF 3.2 / CB 81.3

    ACR: 23363 hands / -11.39 BB/100 / VPIP 18 / PFR 9 / AGG 45 / AF 4.9 / CB 81.3

    A lot of strategy tweaks on both sites, but flop CB virtually the same across sites. (to continue) You will notice BB/100 is almost exact opposite across sites. Don't study this too much Slick. At this point rakeback and bonus isn't even keeping me afloat. Will stick it out for awhile though, for study sake, and knowing I will learn more here vs Regs.
    Look, Savvy certainly means well and I definitely don't mind his cynical nature. I'm the same way, myself. I think he's a little too negative for his own (or other's) benefit sometimes but all in all, he's been around for a while and he's a good poster. It's just that unless you play on WPN, or at the very least know true grinders on there, you simply would make the assumption that he did: American sites are American sites. All are created equal. Your stats posted (thank you) show that this is anything but the case and you're actually not doing too bad. I know that *most* Americans struggle to not simply bleed money today. Breaking even in cash games is an accomplishment for us, regardless of stakes. Don't miss the point of 2NL and 5NL: We're learning against better players for a discount price. We're not going to build a huge bankroll this way and we're not going to earn a living. What we are going to do is put ourselves in a position to do so on other sites, in live poker, and ultimately at 25NL+ on WPN by way of earning a spot on The Beast leaderboard. One hit there and we're rolled for 100NL+. That's the approach winning cash players from the US are taking today and there's nothing quick or easy about it. The reality is that things are actually on the upswing for us. Just a few years ago we had even fewer options when playing online and it was extremely difficult to find games half of the time. Now, you can easily play 24/7 as traffic has improved tremendously on WPN and BOL. Just don't expect the two sites to be even remotely comparable. The guys on WPN are mostly semi pro and pro. It's totally unfriendly to recreational players. They just get blown off the site. BOL is filled with gamblers, blackjack players, and poker players who are on level 1 thinking. It's two totally different worlds.

    I'm sure a lot of people who, years ago, played mid/high stakes look at some of these micros threads and wonder: Is it really necessary for them to work that hard just to beat 2NL? On WPN, yes. Yes, it is. If you check out PokerStrategy.com, you'll see tons and tons of players studying 2NL through 25NL all day long. Extremely in depth analysis. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your outlook) it really does require a ton of skill and hard work to break into the game at all today as a US player. And we're not the only ones who have it difficult today, either. Tons of ROW (rest of world) players are also struggling far more than 5+ years ago. It's a different, evolving, more challenging and competitive game currently.
    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-19-2017 at 10:57 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    Because it was a blind steal attempt and I got called
    Then why are you betting a whiffed flop?


    You had a plan. A profitable plan.
    Why you changed your plan:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    (I got called), plus only had an over to board, I decided to double barrel at that moment.
    This logic is perfectly flawed. Villain isn't mentioned once in there.

    The cards are primarily a distraction for the fish. Poker isn't really a card game. It's a game of psychological warfare. Online poker relies heavily on the soul-crushing power of mathematics to accomplish this goal.

    It's not about beating the cards.
    It's about beating the villains.
  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Then why are you betting a whiffed flop?


    You had a plan. A profitable plan.
    Why you changed your plan:


    This logic is perfectly flawed. Villain isn't mentioned once in there.

    The cards are primarily a distraction for the fish. Poker isn't really a card game. It's a game of psychological warfare. Online poker relies heavily on the soul-crushing power of mathematics to accomplish this goal.

    It's not about beating the cards.
    It's about beating the villains.
    To say that I planned a Turn action based on my PF action, at the flop, definitely is flawed, and must be remedied. Why I post I guess, to uncover these leaks. But as opponent would miss flop 2/3rd of time, a CB is justified I think majority of time, even though it was initially a steal attempt. Right?

    But their holdings (cards) drive the psychology. Card drive situational mathematics. Right? If I look down at AA PF, you can think to Freud all you want. I ain't folding to your antics. I can see in most cases where both parties are unsure, because of incomplete info, but even there my cards have some bear at least as much as what I think he thinks I have.
  21. #21
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    To say that I planned a Turn action based on my PF action, at the flop, definitely is flawed, and must be remedied. Why I post I guess, to uncover these leaks.
    It's all good. I'm usually more verbose and less ... confrontational.
    Thanks for taking it in stride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    But as opponent would miss flop 2/3rd of time, a CB is justified I think majority of time, even though it was initially a steal attempt. Right?
    Now you're thinking about Villain, so much better reasons to bet OTF.

    Not bad.

    It's always best to assign a range to Villain, and to see what your bet does to that range, and calculate the value of that bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    But their holdings (cards) drive the psychology. Card drive situational mathematics. Right? If I look down at AA PF, you can think to Freud all you want. I ain't folding to your antics. I can see in most cases where both parties are unsure, because of incomplete info, but even there my cards have some bear at least as much as what I think he thinks I have.
    The case where you're never folding AA is a fine example. Is it the only hand in that range which you are never folding? If not, then what's the other pockets in that range? Does opponent know them? Have you ever taken this line with a "bad" hand... and shown the villain what you did? (I'm not suggesting this is always a good play. 99.9% of the time, it's burning monies, but that 0.1% of the time... wowee... that guy might never fold to your AA pre-flop ever again.)

    That's the game. You may have stepped outside of your A-game one time, but it created a lasting memory in a specific villain. You intentionally did it to mess with them, for reasons you determined were apt, and applied to this person specifically. I can't stress enough that this is the true game of poker. The cards are there to distract the fish from the actual game the sharks are playing.


    It's a game of much more than math, but math can get you to be a winning player against players who don't understand the math. However, when playing against players who DO understand the math (which is the norm when grinding out a living wage and above), then it's not enough to beat them. You can only tie them if you both play mathematically perfect poker. The game is to find a way to deviate which costs you less than it earns you... I.e. to trick your opponent into doing a bad play that they know is bad, but they've convinced themselves that it's not bad against YOU in this spot. You see?

    ***
    OK.... back to the topic at hand.

    As a beginner, you need to learn the math and you need to trust the math to guide your decisions.
    However, you need to also not get lost in the numbers and think this is a game about your cards and the cards on the table.
    It's definitely not. Only heartache is down that road.
    It's a game of outplaying your opponent. It's a game where everything you do is motivated by your opponents and your position relative to them. It's a game in which you slowly cultivate a false image of your strategy in your opponents' minds and capitalize on the false image you've presented.

    The numbers can only prevent you from being a bad player, but they can't make you great.
  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    It's all good. I'm usually more verbose and less ... confrontational.
    Thanks for taking it in stride.


    Now you're thinking about Villain, so much better reasons to bet OTF.

    Not bad.

    It's always best to assign a range to Villain, and to see what your bet does to that range, and calculate the value of that bet.


    The case where you're never folding AA is a fine example. Is it the only hand in that range which you are never folding? If not, then what's the other pockets in that range? Does opponent know them? Have you ever taken this line with a "bad" hand... and shown the villain what you did? (I'm not suggesting this is always a good play. 99.9% of the time, it's burning monies, but that 0.1% of the time... wowee... that guy might never fold to your AA pre-flop ever again.)

    That's the game. You may have stepped outside of your A-game one time, but it created a lasting memory in a specific villain. You intentionally did it to mess with them, for reasons you determined were apt, and applied to this person specifically. I can't stress enough that this is the true game of poker. The cards are there to distract the fish from the actual game the sharks are playing.


    It's a game of much more than math, but math can get you to be a winning player against players who don't understand the math. However, when playing against players who DO understand the math (which is the norm when grinding out a living wage and above), then it's not enough to beat them. You can only tie them if you both play mathematically perfect poker. The game is to find a way to deviate which costs you less than it earns you... I.e. to trick your opponent into doing a bad play that they know is bad, but they've convinced themselves that it's not bad against YOU in this spot. You see?

    ***
    OK.... back to the topic at hand.

    As a beginner, you need to learn the math and you need to trust the math to guide your decisions.
    However, you need to also not get lost in the numbers and think this is a game about your cards and the cards on the table.
    It's definitely not. Only heartache is down that road.
    It's a game of outplaying your opponent. It's a game where everything you do is motivated by your opponents and your position relative to them. It's a game in which you slowly cultivate a false image of your strategy in your opponents' minds and capitalize on the false image you've presented.

    The numbers can only prevent you from being a bad player, but they can't make you great.
    Good stuff. All of it. I take it to heart. I am a sucker for structure though. Can I get you to give me a list of what math to study and in what order you think I would benefit the bet from studying poker math.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I would agree Slick. The juicy GT tourneys only real thing keeping me around, and I'm not even a tournament player. Very small sample size, so maybe I am just getting lucky on ACR.

    2NL comparison at those sites with over 20K hands each.

    BOL: 30706 hands / 12.10 BB/100 / VPIP 27 / PFR 9 / AGG 39 / AF 3.2 / CB 81.3

    ACR: 23363 hands / -11.39 BB/100 / VPIP 18 / PFR 9 / AGG 45 / AF 4.9 / CB 81.3

    A lot of strategy tweaks on both sites, but flop CB virtually the same across sites. (to continue) You will notice BB/100 is almost exact opposite across sites. Don't study this too much Slick. At this point rakeback and bonus isn't even keeping me afloat. Will stick it out for awhile though, for study sake, and knowing I will learn more here vs Regs.
    You're not playing the same or have had huge differences in luck in the hands you have been dealt from the stats you have posted. The ones you control, not the results that is irrelevant.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Really, man ...I'm sorry but in this case you don't know what you're talking about. The mere fact that you said "you play 2nl on an American site" proves that. Right, and you don't play anything on any site right now let alone 2NL on WPN. What applied to you 4 years ago on a soft rec site doesn't apply to us in this case. Impossible to build a bankroll? Yes - On WPN, it is just about impossible to start with a $50 deposit and build a roll via cash games. It takes a *ton* of work. A lot of people who play 25NL+ on other networks simply can't get past 5NL on WPN. It's a totally different animal and you sometimes make extremely bold statements without having the personal experience to back them up. That's exactly what you're doing in this case. If you go start a 2NL bankroll challenge and cbet 80%+ of the time (which I guess is what you would do. That's all I can imagine "it's just not true" to mean since you didn't specify it yourself) with the rake structure the way it is, you're 100% correct. It would be impossible to build a roll. That's what the overwhelming majority of players are contending with in the micros on that network.

    If you take a solid, winning player at say 3 bb/100 on WPN @ 5NL, he could easily handle 25NL on Ignition and BetOnline. Any 25NL+ US player could vouch for this fully.
    I've never played on soft sites and the times I have played was on mostly on zoom at pokerstars in 2014/5 when the games will have been much harder than whatever it is you're playing. I'm not saying that it's not harder I'm saying it'll still be soft. That difference may be enough to make you a losing player but it doesn't mean that the games are hard, just harder.

    The only reason it's relevant that it's a US site is because they basically couldn't play poker for a length of time, all the players making enough money (and hence being good) left to places they could play poker. I'm not saying there aren't harder US sites just that in general they are worse. WPN isn't some special case where the micro games are the hardest in the world.

    I know the games aren't that hard because I see people posting hands at those levels doing awful retarded shit that is really easy to make money from. You're just not at a level where you can do this. I 100% agree that games get more difficult over time (generally) I could even accept that WPN is harder than 2nl on any other site 2 years ago but those games were crushable as are the ones you are playing on. Unless there is some retarded rake structure that means no can possibly win.

    The correct course of action is to never play another hand on WPN ever again because it's a complete waste of your time, you can learn the exact same from playing higher stakes on other sites where you make more money and can build a roll faster and be giving away less of your money to the site you play on.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Look, Savvy certainly means well and I definitely don't mind his cynical nature. I'm the same way, myself. I think he's a little too negative for his own (or other's) benefit sometimes.
    The point of this forum is to learn, I come across as negative because I spend most of my time correcting and arguing (for others benefits much more than mine I'm never going to put time into playing poker again) and don't care enough to phrase it all nicely for people. This would be better in general I agree.

    I am very much of the opinion that if you don't like the advice just ignore it.
    Last edited by Savy; 06-20-2017 at 08:18 AM.
  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    Good stuff. All of it. I take it to heart. I am a sucker for structure though. Can I get you to give me a list of what math to study and in what order you think I would benefit the bet from studying poker math.
    It's almost all algebra. The form of an equity calculation is motivated by probability theory, but in a rather intuitive manner.

    Once you get it, it's not too difficult. You don't need to memorize the formula, just remember how it works.

    I don't know if this is the best place to start (IDK what your current math knowledge is), but this is a great article by spoonitnow.

    https://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-...expected-23901


    Basically, I strongly recommend you look through spoonitnow's articles, and post a thread with a question if you feel less than 100% on some cooncepts.
  26. #26
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    @ Savy: Almost everything in your last post is true. I still insist that the games are a little harder than you're aware of but I also agree with you that they're certainly beatable. I'm running even for the month, a couple BI's below EV, and I started the month off by throwing 3BI's down the drain just getting used to things again as I hadn't played in a while. Looking through my PT4 database, a 5+bb/100 winrate is definitely possible at 2NL and 5NL on WPN. It's just that if you can pull off playing 5NL there, you can easily jump to 10NL or 25NL on Ignition or BOL. It's basically an investment of time and a little money. Further, with PT4 support and the best software for a US facing site, along with 27% rake back, it's definitely the best site a US player has access to.

    For the record: I'm far more concerned about the content of your advice than how you say it. I'm not a delicate snowflake and I teach people things the same way. Most don't appreciate it but the ones who do obviously learn a ton. I was raised off of constructive (and sometimes not very constructive) criticism and legitimately view failure as an opportunity in my adult life.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I would agree Slick. The juicy GT tourneys only real thing keeping me around, and I'm not even a tournament player. Very small sample size, so maybe I am just getting lucky on ACR.

    2NL comparison at those sites with over 20K hands each.

    BOL: 30706 hands / 12.10 BB/100 / VPIP 27 / PFR 9 / AGG 39 / AF 3.2 / CB 81.3

    ACR: 23363 hands / -11.39 BB/100 / VPIP 18 / PFR 9 / AGG 45 / AF 4.9 / CB 81.3

    A lot of strategy tweaks on both sites, but flop CB virtually the same across sites. (to continue) You will notice BB/100 is almost exact opposite across sites. Don't study this too much Slick. At this point rakeback and bonus isn't even keeping me afloat. Will stick it out for awhile though, for study sake, and knowing I will learn more here vs Regs.
    My volume's starting to pick up quite a bit and I've learned a *lot* in the past few weeks. More than I ever absorbed before. I also like the game more than I ever have and am totally immersed in it now.

    Along with my volume, my winrate is increasing. I'm at +2.38 bb/100 over 3,880 hands this month and that's rising quickly. As said, I threw away a good 3 BI's earlier this month that I just never would now. 3 BI's is 300 bb's. /puke.

    Last edited by BigSlickBaby; 06-20-2017 at 11:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    You're not playing the same or have had huge differences in luck in the hands you have been dealt from the stats you have posted. The ones you control, not the results that is irrelevant.
    I agree. I think it may be the Regs at ACR mostly. But I've tweaked my game so much over these 50K+ hands, that could easily be the main cause of the skewed numbers. I've never been one to make an adjustment and wait 20K hands before making another. Maybe I should, you'll say.
  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I've never been one to make an adjustment and wait 20K hands before making another. Maybe I should, you'll say.
    I'd say for anyone who's actively seeking feedback and questioning the applicability of that feedback, this would be a huge mistake. It takes too long and you'll be improving much more quickly if you just seek to understand what you're doing and why, rather than trying to prove that you're improving. If you are gaining understanding and thinking more deeply about the game, then your improvement is inevitable.

    You are plugging leaks fast. It would be a bad play to avoid plugging a leak for a while, just to see HOW effective your last leak plugging was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    My volume's starting to pick up quite a bit and I've learned a *lot* in the past few weeks. More than I ever absorbed before. I also like the game more than I ever have and am totally immersed in it now.

    Along with my volume, my winrate is increasing. I'm at +2.38 bb/100 over 3,880 hands this month and that's rising quickly. As said, I threw away a good 3 BI's earlier this month that I just never would now. 3 BI's is 300 bb's. /puke.

    I have given up on ACR for the time being, although rakeback is so enticing. Yet, RB couldn't plug enough of my leaks to make staying profitable. Down $57 at pennies and $26nickels. That's almost 30 buy-ins at pennies. Bought on for $62 and still up overall with a roll of $100 due to MTT wins, slow-going bonus, and rakeback. I will say in a anemic defense, that I always had 2 tables across the top and forum/reading/studying/typing material taking most of my attention across the bottom 1/3rd of the screen. But I also played/studied the same way to a lesser extent on BOL, and had the opposite winrate, with 10/BB to the positive end of the spectrum. Weird?? If not for the MTT wins, I'd have been driven from the site long ago. That's more than a down-swing; that's a full-fledged pattern at any stakes. Time to move to greener pastures, and focus on studying in a less volatile environment, where I can play a little tighter range, and work in semi-peace. The structures of low stakes GTD tournaments and competition are juicy on ACR, so I will keep one of those going when available and 2NL BOL to fill in any gaps at the top of my screen why I learn. I am always multi-tasking and will never be a 70/30 poker/study person with my time. It's everything or nothing with me, so don't suggest it. It's just not the way I'm wired. I'm not being stubborn.
  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcash2 View Post
    I have given up on ACR for the time being, although rakeback is so enticing. Yet, RB couldn't plug enough of my leaks to make staying profitable. Down $57 at pennies and $26nickels. That's almost 30 buy-ins at pennies. Bought on for $62 and still up overall with a roll of $100 due to MTT wins, slow-going bonus, and rakeback. I will say in a anemic defense, that I always had 2 tables across the top and forum/reading/studying/typing material taking most of my attention across the bottom 1/3rd of the screen. But I also played/studied the same way to a lesser extent on BOL, and had the opposite winrate, with 10/BB to the positive end of the spectrum. Weird?? If not for the MTT wins, I'd have been driven from the site long ago. That's more than a down-swing; that's a full-fledged pattern at any stakes. Time to move to greener pastures, and focus on studying in a less volatile environment, where I can play a little tighter range, and work in semi-peace. The structures of low stakes GTD tournaments and competition are juicy on ACR, so I will keep one of those going when available and 2NL BOL to fill in any gaps at the top of my screen why I learn. I am always multi-tasking and will never be a 70/30 poker/study person with my time. It's everything or nothing with me, so don't suggest it. It's just not the way I'm wired. I'm not being stubborn.
    Well, I will say this: ACR/BCP used to be even harder. Much. With the volume I'm putting in now, I can attest fully that the micros are much more the way the micros should be now. Still, it's the hardest cash site on the internet. I also think they're now #6 globally, up from #8 last week.

    In my previous attempts I couldn't handle ACR/BCP, either. I was just like you: Pouring BI's down the drain and just couldn't figure out how/why. My only advice is that until I drastically changed my mental game and started to really study (I mean, like you would for a high level college final) I did not improve. I still have a long, long way to go to be where I want to be but it's nice to just be hanging in there on BCP now as opposed to just losing, losing, losing @ 2NL and 5NL. I don't have any bonus, just the 27% rake back but I do know that when another deposit bonus shows up on BetOnline, I'm going to deposit like $200 or so and grind it out there. Between the winrate and the bonus there, I should have a nice month that month.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I'd say for anyone who's actively seeking feedback and questioning the applicability of that feedback, this would be a huge mistake. It takes too long and you'll be improving much more quickly if you just seek to understand what you're doing and why, rather than trying to prove that you're improving. If you are gaining understanding and thinking more deeply about the game, then your improvement is inevitable.

    You are plugging leaks fast. It would be a bad play to avoid plugging a leak for a while, just to see HOW effective your last leak plugging was.
    I agree totally.

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