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10nl in BB, no reads, Bottom2 facing flop raise....

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  1. #1

    Default 10nl in BB, no reads, Bottom2 facing flop raise....

    Kind of a random spot, but still have no HUD or pt4 while, start of 2nd orbit. UTG seems a fish have seen him raise flops twice in one orbit. no reads on sb..

    I donk flop trying to induce utg to do something stupid. then sb does this shit... raise seems big, but sets are so discounted. he shouldn't have JJ either... I'm just not sure what he does this w/????: XcXc, J4,J3,56... IDK..... next move?

    Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

    UTG ($16.06)
    MP ($10.86)
    CO ($13.61)
    Button ($25.21)
    SB ($9.75)
    Hero (BB) ($10)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, 4
    UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks

    Flop: ($0.30) 3, J, 4 (3 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets $0.15, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.75
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    SB's raise size is just a PSB, probably just clicked a button to bet pot.

    Villain's range is hard to fathom, since you have no reads and he could be playing ATC in this spot or more nitty.
    Either way, Hero's bottom 2 is never folding OTF to an unknown. Hero is probably calling down to keep him bluffing his air and keep it cheap when he's actually got Hero beat.

    Oh yeah, it's not a donk bet. Since it was a limped pot (no one was the aggressor on the previous street), there can be no donk bets and no C-bets.
  3. #3
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    dump it if you're an uber-nit, pump up that pot otherwise. Calling is meh cos you hate most turns etc. Villain more likely fish than not based on no auto-top-up read.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    dump it if you're an uber-nit, pump up that pot otherwise. Calling is meh cos you hate most turns etc. Villain more likely fish than not based on no auto-top-up read.
    I'm def no nit. Not folding. I wish I had just a sliver of a read.
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  5. #5
    bikes's Avatar
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    id probably happily fold at these stakes tbh
  6. #6
    Call, keep the pot small and see if your hand gets counterfeited.
  7. #7
    bikes's Avatar
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    this spot has big big big reverse implied odds. there are lots of cards you are super unhappy with on the turn that you have to fold on and there are even more cards on the river you are super unhappy with.

    in this spot you can fold pretty happily due to all the god awful turn cards and the large non 0% chance you are already beat.

    higher stakes i'd probably play the hand differently but not here.
  8. #8
    Yeah there two opposing trains of thought here. Play bottom two strong to charge opponents for getting a chance to outdraw you. Or play it slow and see if there are no obvious counterfeits on turn and river that your opponent plays strong on. The worst is ofcourse a board pair that kills your 2nd pair. I'm more in the second camp now unless I have a high top 2. 2p is the most likely hand to pay off sets/straights/etc. If you always play them as a monster (in a non-3b pot) you're gonna be going broke too often imo.
  9. #9
    combinatorically (yea this isn't a word) we're just so unlikely to be beat here, question is best way to proceed

    I'd call and jam over a turn bet on non-clubs/jacks/3/4.
  10. #10
    Let's say we do want to continue, here's a post that gets into whether we should get the money in quickly or wait for safe cards to hit:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ts-191189.html
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    Let's say we do want to continue, here's a post that gets into whether we should get the money in quickly or wait for safe cards to hit:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ts-191189.html
    I read the whole thing. Hm you arrive at all the wrong plays in your examples, I've tried to wrap my head around this concept you're describing but it just doesn't make logical sense to me.
  12. #12
    Most of the hand examples don't even have "plays" much less right or wrong ones. The first hand just says, "This is a spot where you should play your draw fast." The second one says that the turn is the best place to get the money in. That doesn't necessarily mean you should flat because that makes it so that you are able to get LESS money in on the turn. You can do a juicer raise to leave a PSB behind on the turn that you can shove on a safe card, for example, and that'd be wondrous application of this concept. Hand 3 assumes that we can fold to a river shove on a paired board and that she won't fold a set when the board doesn't pair, which are assumptions that aren't really true frankly. I've adjusted a lot of my thoughts on how live players play over the last couple years. Hand 4's conclusion is solid. Hand 5 illustrates a point that maybe I guess I would have been better off not making? I thought it was a solid point, though. Hand 6's conclusion is "get the money in fast on the turn," which I stand by.

    Anyway, I was posting this because it's directly relevant to your "two trains of thought" post. In this spot, even though we're OOP and facing an unknown, we are likely to drastically change our plan based on the turn card (if we're counterfeited, or an obvious draw is completed), whereas villain is still likely to commit money with Jx and draws even on an offsuit 8. Therefore, we leverage the information that comes with the turn card more than villain does, so just monkey getting the money it makes us miss out on valuable (literally) information.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    Let's say we do want to continue, here's a post that gets into whether we should get the money in quickly or wait for safe cards to hit:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ts-191189.html
    Didn't read all hands, but I think

    Hand 2 - Think we just wanna get this in on the flop. Vulnerable hand that is often ahead now. I would call the nut flush, but am playing this fast.

    Hand 3- So much money behind and villain is showing strength. I'm raising big.

    Hand 4 - After cbettor bets so small and gets c/r, I think c/r range is wider, I'm getting all-in here. Putting the chips in when I believe my equity is the highest, and can put the most pressure on the other two. It sucks that this is a limped pot though as other two pairs are already possible. Raise pre.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Hand 2 - Think we just wanna get this in on the flop. Vulnerable hand that is often ahead now. I would call the nut flush, but am playing this fast.
    Hand 2: is such a perfect example of this concept that I really shoulda just stopped right there. If you were to look at an event tree, getting it in fast with any vulnerable hand doesn't make sense. If a spade is the next card coming, sure our hand is ruined, but why do we want to get the money in anyway when our hand is going to be a 5-high 4-flush by the turn?! And if a spade doesn't come, then the board is all the better for villain to get the money it, and whatever money we get in at that point is worth a quarter more on the dollar equity-wise.

    Rushing to get the money in on the flop because our hand is vulnerable seems pretty similar to the logic of ignoring information on a risky investment because as of what you know right now, it's a marginally good investment, and if you learn any more then you might come to find that it makes sense to pass on it, and that would stink. You better bet all-in on the investment now so that you don't end up having to pass on it later.

    If, on the other hand, we had the As, then we're getting it in regardless, but villain is going to slow down or fold a ton on a spade turn and still get it in happily on a blank turn. So flatting the nut flush does nothing but let villain adjust to the board and give him a better chance of getting away from the worse hand.

    Again, this doesn't get into the idea of how does villain play his range and how do we best exploit that; all it concludes is that you should be more inclined to get your money in on the turn if you have the 5-high flush and more inclined to get your money in on the flop if you have an A-high flush.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73 View Post
    combinatorically (yea this isn't a word) we're just so unlikely to be beat here, question is best way to proceed

    I'd call and jam over a turn bet on non-clubs/jacks/3/4.
    wow this thread took off since I've been trying to fix Windows 8 the last two days. any way I did what spenda said here . I can't put in rest of hand cause I had to reset to factory .
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  16. #16
    you can also just call down I guess
  17. #17
    well, i'm going to put in a sesh tonight. Unfortunatley no HUD or pt4. Every time i try to install postgres it causes major errors on my win8(which fuckin blows btw(......

    A dude from pt4 support is going to remote connect to me and help me get this issue resolved, but till then i'm playing w/ no HUD. Good practice I guess. I'm hoping i get into a more interesting spot than bottom 2 in a limped pot... we'll see
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  18. #18
    Is pt4 known to cause problems on win8? I was thinking of giving it a try because I'm not too happy with HEM2.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Is pt4 known to cause problems on win8? I was thinking of giving it a try because I'm not too happy with HEM2.
    Not pt4 as much as Postgresql I guess. I have had to reset back to factory image twice now after postgres install fails, and a massive errror then happens to my win8, where the comp won't recognize me as an admin no matter what... It's fuckin ridiculous.... I'm terrified to try and
    install pt4/HEM2 now. Both companies have offered to do a remote connect and help me w/ the prob. I mean look at the list of shit HEM support gave me to do:

    Hi, my name is Chris.

    It sounds like you aren't installing on an admin account and/or installing as an administrator.

    - Please see these steps to fix postgresql installation issues:

    - Please update windows fully. Please keep checking until it shows twicet five minutes apart that there are no more updates.

    If you have Win7 or 8 (or Vista), consider the following:
    1) PC name must be in English and "in one word" - requires reboot after changing.
    2) The same for Windows user name. If not - create new Win user with EN name and reboot PC for this user when install Postgres. And he must have admin rights. After installation you can kill this new user - his mission is completed.
    3) Secondary logon service must be set to "Autostart".
    This is a standard windows service which is available on every windows computer. In the latest versions it is not started automatically. You need to start it via control panel > administrative tools > services.
    4) UAC = OFF ( How to Disable and Turn Off UAC in Windows 7 « My Digital Life )
    5) Disable firewall and antivirus when installing Postgres and HM. Or uninstall them at all.
    6) All installations must run "as admin" (by right-click on file). And do them as first thing after PC reboot.
    7) If you want to change install path for Postgres (or to set non-default folder for database cluster) - download "standalone" installation file from Download PostgreSQL | EnterpriseDB
    8) If your Windows is not in English - you have to install Postgres not in default folder in Program_Files. Create new (example: c:\postgresql) first and select it when install.
    9) Install Postgres and HM separarelly, one after one. As admin. If HM (when runs for the 1st time) says "no database" - simply create it via DBControlpanel.
    10) If Postgres install fails - after uninstalling don't forget to kill windows user named "postgres":
    Go to Start > Programs > Accessories > Command Prompt > Right-Click > Run As Administrator
    In the window that appears please type the following and press enter:
    net user postgres /del
    exactly as shown. You should get a confirmation if it was successful.
    11) Run all pokerclients "as admin" too.

    there's more too, the fact that i should have to do any of this is aggravating, but this is just ludicrous ..
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  20. #20
    Yeah the program told me to run pokerstars as admin. I did and it still didn't work. So many win8 problems it's sick.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Yeah the program told me to run pokerstars as admin. I did and it still didn't work. So many win8 problems it's sick.
    I really feel like my only choice is to have them remote Connect and do whatever they have to do
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF

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