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1 More hand (2nl)

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  1. #1

    Default 1 More hand (2nl)

    The question here is how often is our opponent getting to the river with non jx type hands. Not sure how spewy we are being here. Perhaps checking flop is better?

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 186.5 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 10.39, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 78)
    BTN: 154.5 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
    Hero (SB): 107.5 BB
    BB: 140 BB (VPIP: 20.34, PFR: 16.95, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 60)
    UTG: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 18.30, PFR: 15.69, 3Bet Preflop: 4.39, Hands: 319)
    MP: 90 BB (VPIP: 16.39, PFR: 9.84, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 62)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A 8

    fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2.5 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, BTN calls 6.5 BB

    Flop: (19 BB, 2 players) J J 9
    Hero bets 9 BB, BTN calls 9 BB

    Turn: (37 BB, 2 players) 6
    Hero bets 22 BB, BTN calls 22 BB

    River: (81 BB, 2 players) Q
    Hero bets 67.5 BB and is all-in, fold,
  2. #2
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    This is risky. If villain is chasing two streets with QT here when we can have KK, he's unaware of the dangers of chasing such a hand and we should not assume he then goes on to fold top pair. He's obviously not folding a jack. So what can he have that folds? Possibly missed pocket pairs, but does he call turn with these? Maybe, because AK is such a big part of our range. We need better reads here I think, we're going to run into Jx/99/QT too often.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Also he can have 66, that's three more combos that he isn't folding.

    We really need to know he doesn't have QT, and also that he can call two streets with his pairs while giving up river when the money goes in. Then we're probably the right side of marginal.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    This is the mother of horrific plays You have posted
    Dont get me wrong, this a fabulous play, but... with the right image, reads and vs the right villain. You have none of this. And Most important, You have no ideea why this is such a great play and because of that, You should not do IT
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  5. #5
    What's our range pre and our 3 barrel range post? Pretty sure a competent villain can profitably call down anything that beats ace high (but likely won't).
  6. #6
    The question to answer is why did you choose to play the hand this way? I think if you listed your reasons some of the assumptions you've made will turn out to be incorrect and hence this isn't a good play.
  7. #7
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Why does a poker player bet ?
    1. Because he can make better hands fold( this is available for any type of bet, preflop opening,3/4/5/etc bet, postflop betting,raising,3betting,shoving)
    2. Because he will get called by worse hands( just like number 1)
    3. Because he can outplay his oponent postflop( you need skill, experience and reads on your oponent)
    4. Because of balance ( this is an advanced concept, we do it because we dont get payed on pur premium hands pre/post, but just like bluffing ,the % should be big enough to make oponent pay your nuts ,but not big enough to make his call profitabile for him)

    For starters, at 2nl/5nl/even 10nl stick to 1 and 2.
    3 and 4 depend a lot on villain and your knowledge,skills etc. They also vary from villain to villain, your ajudsments need to be particular for every villain.

    At the end, IT all sums up by range vs range, you can beat my hand,but you will be crushed by my range.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  8. #8
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Why 3b A8s in SB v BTN?
    I think is -EV: You still have BB to act which seems to like 3betting,giving positions he could consider a light 4bet. You know nothing about BTN , what he opens,he folds,what he calls, what he 4bets. By 3betting A8s You can make him fold all suited combos that could play your nut flush and that also hapends to BB. When you hit your A, slim % you get action from worse and so Most times you're losing a lot of money post.
    Now on this board, you have no ideea what his pre flatting range is, but on JJ9, Most players dont fold pairs, 9x, AQ/AT, never Jx, QT/8T, if they call them, they could also float flop and raise your turn/bet turn, due to the paired J,because SB has a light 3b pre and a light flop cbet post, and they are not wrong at all in your case. So as You can see you're flop FE is very low and your turn A might not be good. Because all of this by a standard You are supposed to fire 2nd barrel If You cbet flop. You 2nd barrel will get bluffed a lot, You will get raised by Jx or better and there plenty of those hands will get called again for the same lightness reason ( bad players because they cant fold, nevwr bluff them,value bet them, good players because they have reasons to call, again, not wrong in your case). Until this point, Hope You can see why your play is bad
    River bet, well that's the worse. It's gold as a balance, but balancing vs 2nl players ,good or bad, it's pointless, just losing money. When You bet this river, like i said , You will beat some hands, but you'll get crushed by his calling range. Do You play your AA/KK the same? How about Jx/ QQ? My opinion is that by checking river and letting him try to bluff, we have a higher EV then betting even w/ the nuts
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  9. #9
    kmind's Avatar
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    I like the 3bet pre if the BB is squeeze happy. You can take the pot down now or play in a bigger pot with a hand capable of flopping big.

    I'd c/f the flop though. You have one of the worst hands in your range and this flop hits his pretty hard.
  10. #10
    Cobra_1878's Avatar
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    I like pre - would much rather play this hand with the betting lead and always wanting to play hands that can flop the nuts at 2nl. It's also fine multi-way as well so sometimes 3bet and sometimes call.

    Cbetting flop is good - hard for villain to continue with his likely calling 3bets range. Potentially fold out better A high and probably some small-medium pairs as well.

    Turn I'm also continuing on - for pretty much same reasons as the flop. We have also picked up additional equity with the nut flush draw (likely good equity because flopping full houses/quads is hard)

    River - This is spewy. After getting called on two streets - what are we expecting villain to have that he can fold? A lot of Qx that somehow made the river is not folding now they have made top pair.
  11. #11
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    Why does a poker player bet ?
    1. Because he can make better hands fold( this is available for any type of bet, preflop opening,3/4/5/etc bet, postflop betting,raising,3betting,shoving)
    2. Because he will get called by worse hands( just like number 1)
    3. Because he can outplay his oponent postflop( you need skill, experience and reads on your oponent)
    4. Because of balance ( this is an advanced concept, we do it because we dont get payed on pur premium hands pre/post, but just like bluffing ,the % should be big enough to make oponent pay your nuts ,but not big enough to make his call profitabile for him)

    For starters, at 2nl/5nl/even 10nl stick to 1 and 2.
    3 and 4 depend a lot on villain and your knowledge,skills etc. They also vary from villain to villain, your ajudsments need to be particular for every villain.

    At the end, IT all sums up by range vs range, you can beat my hand,but you will be crushed by my range.
    Not sure if raz still checks in, but I disagree with the complication of this post.

    There are two reasons to bet... value, or bluff.

    1... is a bluff
    2... is value
    3... "outplaying" someone is getting them to call your value bets, or fold to your bluffs.
    4... "balance" is taking a similar spot and making different decisions, such as... sometimes, but not always bluffing, for example KQ on A54, usually c-bet (bluff), sometimes check, or it might be mixing up value, for example AK on ATJ, usually c-bet (value) but sometimes check.

    Any bet that is neither a value bet nor a bluff is pure loss, it's basically charity.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Reading back through that post, the "balance" issue is a lot more complicated than can be squeezed into a couple of sentences. Balance is playing our range in a way that makes it difficult for our opponent to narrow our range. I guess I can see that sometimes we might make what we know is a -ev bet in order to protect our range, so that villains make bigger mistakes in the future. I guess this is still a bluff. But we're getting into advanced thinking here that really does not apply at the micros, because villains are bad and even those who do pay attention rarely know how to adapt effectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    surviva316's Avatar
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    Preflop is fine/standard with BB's stats.

    Flop is good. We should be checking a whole lot, obviously, but this hand is a little strong to x/f and far from the best to x/c. Probably one of the first in the bluff bucket, especially among A-high hands.

    Turn is okay. I kind of wonder what our checking strat looks like, but that's probably too deep in the weeds for these stakes.

    I would strongly advise against shoving this river in practice, particularly at these stakes. TT is folding, but pretty much everything else got there, especially with us blocking the Ad. Even in theory, this is going to rank toward the bottom of our admittedly scant air combos due to blockers and hand strength.

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