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[5NL] I have a range in the BB, how should I play it?

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  1. #1
    Mury's Avatar
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    Default [5NL] I have a range in the BB, how should I play it?

    Looking into 3bets now for a while. I'll underline major questions I have, and hopefully be able to discuss them either here or in the IRC.


    SB: $10.87 (217.4 bb)
    Hero (BB): $14.93 (298.6 bb)
    UTG: $5.36 (107.2 bb)
    MP: $8.04 (160.8 bb)
    CO: $13.46 (269.2 bb) {33/26, 62% ATS, 6/12 fold to 3b, 237 hands}
    BTN: $11.38 (227.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with a range
    2 folds, CO raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60

    This guy is a multi tabling reggish player.

    To begin putting together how I should play my range here I need to know what my unexploitable strategy looks like.

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow
    Without going into a lot of math to explain how these values are found, the unexploitable folding frequency will be bet/(bet+pot) and the unexploitable bluffing frequency will be bet/(bet+bet+pot).
    This is taken from a strategy article posted by Spoon here http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-s...pponents-20665. I'm not sure how this applies to this situation. I was told in IRC that generally speaking in a 100bb game our unexploitable strat is to have roughly 2/3 of our 3b range be bluffs and 1/3 of it be value. I should've asked how we got to that conclusion. Oh well, next time. Even though I don't like just blindly following rules, I'll do it to start out with here. I guess our opponent's unexploitable frequencies would be calling folding 2/3 and calling 1/3?

    Also I'm unclear on sizing and how that effects our unexploitable strategy.

    So a general starting point for our value 3b range would be QQ+ AK. Our opponent is folding 50% so far, and we can reasonably assume he's probably not going to deviate too far from that, even a margin of error of +/- 10% leaves him in the calling too much range. This means we should be bluffing less, and value betting more. If this guy was completely unaware what was going on, we would want to never bluff. However, he does seem somewhat competent, and semi-aware so I don't think that's our best strategy.

    QQ+ AK is 34 combos. To be 3betting unexploitably here, we need to add 68 combos of bluffs. our best candidates are hands we wouldn't want to call with but also have blockers, lets go with A2o-A6o, 8xA7o.

    However we've already established this player is exploitable in that he's calling too much. To exploit this, we either add or subtract hands from our range. We could take out all of our bluffs, but I think that's a poor option as he'll figure out that we're only 3betting for value and re-exploit us by folding a ton. We could take out most of our bluffs, lets say 3/4 of them, leaving us with 17 combos of bluffs, or A2o, 5xA3o. I think we could probably add JJ and AQ (maybe just AQs) to our range as value bets as well.

    I don't know, I feel like 3betting 61 combos isn't defending my blinds enough. Maybe I can widen my value range further? I guess I'm calling sometimes too with dominating hands as well, but that feels bad OOP.


    ...... wall o' text ....... if anyone gets through that I'd love to hear thoughts lol.
    Last edited by Mury; 05-28-2014 at 03:30 PM.
  2. #2
    A lot of that isn't correct and you've chosen bad hands to bluff with in the first place. There are a million up to date articles that go into constructing 3bet ranges though so look for them.
  3. #3
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    SB/BB v LP you should 3b TT+/ATo+ for pure value vs LP opening ranges. Your 3b bluffing range should have hands that arent profitable to call pre and they should be as many as your opp allows w/o beeing ecploitable vs 4b. Also rem you are OOP and you are trying to profitable 3b bluff pre w/o screwing this going donkey postflop.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    SB/BB v LP you should 3b TT+/ATo+ for pure value vs LP opening ranges. Your 3b bluffing range should have hands that arent profitable to call pre and they should be as many as your opp allows w/o beeing ecploitable vs 4b. Also rem you are OOP and you are trying to profitable 3b bluff pre w/o screwing this going donkey postflop.
    @Bold, no they should be hands that are more +EV to 3bet than to call.
    @Underlined, this only matters if you are going to get exploited.
  5. #5
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    You will be exploited. Not at 5/ but 25+ ppl will start to play you.
    What hands are more +EV by 3b then call that shoulb be in 3b bluff range?
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  6. #6
    How will you be exploited just because you're playing a certain stake? It is completely player dependant. Yes as you move up people will get better and therefore are more likely to exploit you but at the same time there will be people at 5nl who will exploit you even if it's purely just down to how they play without realising what they are doing. It's important to be aware of but we should definitely deviate when we have the information available to us to exploit people, ESPECIALLY at lower limits because people won't adjust/will adjust poorly than higher up.

    The second bit completely depends on the situation. Flatting a hand like A3s in the BB vs a btn open may be +EV, but 3betting it can be more +EV. In which case we would 3bet it because we don't care about +EV lines, we care about the most +EV lines.
  7. #7
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    A3s is most +EV by calling pre then 3b vs most opp. so are SC and suited broadways
    On the other hand A3o is most+EV by 3b pre rather then calling as long as you dont do it 100% and you know how to play it post and you choose the right opp to 3b.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  8. #8
    It's not possible to simply say a particular hand isn't profitable to play pre flop, because there's a million ways to play the hand post flop. Savy is right, it's about what's most +ev. 23o would be an unprofitable hand to call... unless we have specific reads that villain is cbet/folding waaaay too much, perhaps meaning we can call and then raise any flop.

    As for exploitation, well an unfortunate aspect of poker is that if you are trying to exploit, you yourself become exploitable. This is why we're constantly adjusting.

    These kind of excerises are excellent for learning about our own range, but the simple answer to your question, ie what range do we 3bet with, depends a great deal on the dynamics up to this point. We have 237 hands on this guy, but what happened last time he raised our blind? What happened last time he was 3bet? Do we think he's adjusting? Do we think he thinks we're adjusting? There's so much more to this than simply assigning ourselves a range. I believe your 3bet range should be dynamic, not static.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    w/o beeing mean and hoping you both dont get me wrong.... you are way too concerned about things you shouldnt be at 5/10 nl.
    these stakes can be beaten for over 5ptbb/100 just playing ABC. beeing a 12/10 w/ a 3/4 3b stats and just betting until you get raised and then fold is just a great and simple way to crush them. you dont even need to be that great at cbetting or bluffing/floating or every other concept in poker.
    you should just try to master the ABC and then when that is going for you you should start growing a new level in poker.
    i spent about a year w/ 5/10 and had no result until i came back to school. open tight/bet when you have it and give up to heat.
    true/ when i moved up was different/ 25 and 50 just didnt worked like that... ppl just didnt pay me anymore and then w/ the help of some ( thanks griffey/renton and the rest) i started to balance/ open looser/ cbet more/ 3b/4b/5b more w/ diff ranges/ floating/ blah blah blah...

    this is my advice/ dont get stuck in 5/10 another year/ play ABC/ make money/ move up and slowly add new concepts to your game. even at 25/50 you can beat them for 1/1.5 ptbb w/ just 12/10 stats cause the poole is still large and bad players arent missing.


    3b at any stake/ vs any op in blinds v LP or BTN v CO/HJ/MP2 is value w/ TT+ATo + and the rest is villain/table/momentum/your postflop sklls dependant. but any 3b stat higher then 10-12% is going to get you in trouble unlles you are a master. there are some here that can go profitably up to 20% or above but they have years and tons of hands behind and up to that point there are still a lot more steps to manage in a game. someone here said to me: dont try to run until you can walk perfectly.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  10. #10
    That's a very good post raz, but the one flaw is that you're simply bunching everyone together based on stakes. You're assuming everyone at 5/10 is going to be crushed by nitting it up. Maybe 80% of the 10nl field will be crushed by such strategy, compared to maybe 45% at 25nl. Well there's nothing wrong with trying to identify the 20% of the 10nl field that is adjusting, and adjust our game accordingly so that maybe we can win money off these people too, and instead of crushing 80% of the field, we're at 90%+.

    Adjusting is the key to poker success, even at low stakes. If optimal adjustment is to nit it up, then by all means nit it up. But nit it up for a reason, not just as a standard. Understand why you are playing the way you are playing. Sometimes playing very tight will be the best strategy. But not always. If you are unable to recognise when it is best and when it isn't, then imo you're not ready for higher stakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    you will never be able to beat those 20% if you cant crush those 80%.
    and its clear you arent able to beat those 80% because after 50/100k hands you are still playing 5/10 nl w/o any results or w/ poor ones.
    that means there are flaws in your game and that means that mainly your post flop game sucks since beeing looser pre isnt that bad if you have post skills.
    beeing a bad post flop player is going to ruin you even more by starting to 3b wider then you should at your level since 3b/4b/5b and calling 3b/4b/5b is a part of the game that by itself implies first of all a higher variance and very good postflop skills. a variance will also induce a lot of tilt since you are not mentally fit for that kind of game , tilt which will induce even more variance and losses.

    you are going to play huge pots w/ marginal hands when you have no ideea on how to play them and you have no clue on how to read the stats of your opp.

    you are going to 3b A2o and LP calls. flop comes A33rainbow/ great flop for that hand. what do you do? do you bet? why? do you c/c ? why? do you c/r? why? if you bet and he calls, do fire again turn? on what cards? why? if we c/c what is the plan for turn? why? if he checks what do we do on turn? if he raises flop then what do we do? he has a 50% fold to 3b, but you never looked to see what is his LP fold to 3b which is more important then overall. how big is the sample ? he is folding 50% but what is he doing w/ the other 50%? how much of that is he calling and how much is he 4b pre? does he flat 3b w/ value hands that dominate us because by 4b them he will just make us fold our worse and just 4b bluffs a lot because we 3b wide but just fold to 4b like 90%? do we really need to have a 3b bluff range vs him if he always pays our value hands? and if you have answers to any of these questions on what do your arguments stand? intuition? general play of a stake? a 300/500/1000 hands sample? notes? what notes since you are zooming and never CTRL+FOLD to see what whe 3b/what size/ position/ what he cb or c/c or c/r/ or what he limps/call/ limps/3b or any kind of reads you can get.

    you are a player that firres 3barrels w/ QJ on Q9357 w/ abssolutly no clue on why you are doing this but you wanna start 3b and play bigger pots w/ marginal hands when you cant even understand why you are 3b in the first place.

    3b play has more questions then what i wrote and better ones maybe could make you understand better why you shouldnt go there before you start winning w/ ABC.

    NOTE: "you" is not some particular peron on this forum, "you" is just a poker player.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  12. #12
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    i just seen the 3b in op post.
    why the hell are you 4x3b ?did the math to see what FE you need w/ your bluffs just to make it 0EV?have you thought how that size affects his calling range and his 4b range? do you really wanna play a 250bb deep w/ a marginal hand when you just 4x3b pre and he has position and you have no ideea and what his ranges are and how is playing post? a cb is going to cost you another 12bb for sure and there it goes 24bb in pot w/o knowing what you are doing. i assume you dont know cause you first play the hand and then ask.

    again. no one please take this the wrong way.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  13. #13
    you will never be able to beat those 20% if you cant crush those 80%.
    You're making the assumption that I'm playing the same game vs the 20% that I am the 80%. I'm not. I'm trying to identify who the strong players are, and who the weak players are, and adjust my game accordingly. I realise that playing tight is correct vs a lot of people at the micros. But it's not correct vs everyone. You seem to think that targetting the 80% is enough. I'm arguing that optimal would be to identify who the 80%'ers are, and who the 20%'ers are, and target both with different methods. Is it working for me? Well I'm not pissing my bankroll away so it's not failing. I might not be back to 25nl yet, but at least I'm enjoying playing poker.

    The problem I have with your nitting it up strategy is that it does not set you up for the higher stakes when you get there. Better players will exploit such tendancies, and if we don't know how to correctly adjust vs them, then we're gonna get beaten very quickly. I'd rather be breaking even while improving at 10nl than crush 10nl with a nitty strategy and then find myself getting crushed at 25nl because I don't know how to adjust. My goal is not to simply beat the stakes I am currently playing. I want a good, balanced poker game, whatever my stakes. Yes I'm miles away from where I want to be, but not as far as you seem to think. I treat 10nl as school, 25nl is college. I'm not going to college until I've finished school.

    I'm not going to 3bet A2o vs most people. I'm usually folding it when raised. I'll generally 3bet hands like JTs 89s etc to balance out my AK JJ+, I'm not interested in unsuited raggy aces because they are too awkward to play oop in 3bet pots. But against someone who opens too much and folds to too many 3bets, well sure I can 3bet A2o, just as I can 3bet any other random two cards. This would be me adjusting, having identified a weakness that I can exploit.

    you are a player that firres 3barrels w/ QJ on Q9357 w/ abssolutly no clue on why you are doing this
    I'll fire 3barrels in this spot vs passive donks who will call down TT QT A9 etc, but I won't be firing 3barrels as standard. I'd need some good notes for me to consider this a good 3barrel spot. You're making some poor assumptions here. People like me, who are at least trying to think about what we're doing and why, are not blindly triple barreling top pair.

    You make a lot of good points raz, but you're blinded by a lot of bad assumptions about us low stakers are playing.

    I'm not going to nit it up to the point that I'm playing 13/12 or whatever. It might well be a winning strategy at 10nl, but it's not the only winning strategy, and I'd be very surprised if a 13/12 is making significant money at 25nl.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 05-31-2014 at 09:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    Mury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    3b play has more questions then what i wrote and better ones maybe could make you understand better why you shouldnt go there before you start winning w/ ABC.
    Is it not better to learn this kind of play at lower stakes where it's less expensive to make mistakes?

    Also as to your other post, I really struggle with 3b sizing; it kind of seems like no matter what sizing I post someone ends up telling me it's a bad sizing for that particular spot.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mury View Post
    Also as to your other post, I really struggle with 3b sizing; it kind of seems like no matter what sizing I post someone ends up telling me it's a bad sizing for that particular spot.
    Be easier if you tell us what you think about when you are sizing your 3bets and maybe an example or two showing your logic in action.
  16. #16
    Mury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Be easier if you tell us what you think about when you are sizing your 3bets and maybe an example or two showing your logic in action.
    MP: $5.36 (107.2 bb)
    CO: $24.45 (489 bb) {35/21, 2/4 fold to 3b, 34% ATS, 67% fold to CB, 9.1% 3b, 229 hands}
    BTN: $11.22 (224.4 bb)
    SB: $20.54 (410.8 bb)
    Hero (BB): $12.50 (250 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with K A
    MP folds, CO raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60

    So here I choose to 4x because I have a value hand, he's likely folding less than he should be, and I want to lower SPRs for post flop value situations. Is this bad OOP?


    MP: $5 (100 bb)
    CO: $7.19 (143.8 bb)
    BTN: $4.93 (98.6 bb)
    Hero (SB): $5.08 (101.6 bb)
    BB: $5 (100 bb)
    UTG: $7.97 (159.4 bb) {22/17, 2/2 fold to 3b, 0 fold to CB, 117 hands}

    Preflop: Hero is SB with J A
    UTG raises to $0.12, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40

    So here we're bluffing, he has to fold 66.7% of the time for it to be profitable in a vacuum, obviously we can have a higher EV with a smaller sizing but a lot of the time I feel like if I go any smaller than like 3.5-4x I'm just going to get called super light..


    MP: $12.66 (253.2 bb) {25/15, 27% ATS, 5/7 fold to 3b, 50% fold to cb, 268 hands}
    Hero (CO): $12.50 (250 bb)
    BTN: $18.73 (374.6 bb)
    SB: $5.05 (101 bb)
    BB: $5.89 (117.8 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with T J
    MP raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.45

    Here again we're bluffing, he has to fold 62.5% of the time for it to be profitable in a vacuum. I choose 3x because I think he's folding a lot and I want to get the cheapest price I can get... maybe I can go smaller, like 0.4 even. I'm IP this time around, which means I'm not as worried about bloating a pot as I'll be able to take a lot of free cards etc. post flop and control the size of the pot much easier, which might be an argument for betting larger vs. some opponents for more fold equity.


    That's just a quick 3 rattled off, my basic thought process.
  17. #17
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    AKo 3b: w/ that size he is folding every single hand you want him to call with due to sizing

    AJo 3b: is that his standard EP open? he is EP w/ a fairly tight range facing a small 3b. he gets implied odds to call w/ most of his EP range and due to sizing and his position he can and will 4b a wide range vs you exploiting you. plus he might start flat AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/KK/AA and own you on multiple streets.

    JTo 3b: so deep and w/ 3opp still left to act 3b w/ a hand that is +EV IP and even better if SB/BB come along vs an MP player w/ a low PFR and low fold to CB.

    your 3b sizing should be the same for entire range/ should be sweaten opp to call but big enough to deny his implied odds ( this also includes your post skills)
    of course you can vary the size villain dependant, same goes for range but to me it seems you are 3b somehow wide and easy to read due to sizing.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  18. #18
    3bet sizing should not be the same. It should be dynamic, much like our range, adapting to conditions. 3betting x4 is usually going to be poor sizing, but if you have seen villain r/c at this size already, then it's fine.

    You need to be careful that you're not turning your hand face up with your sizing. If you're making it x4 for value and x3 for bluff, well you're giving away a lot of information.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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