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[5NL] A4s...NFD facing bet and raise on flop

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  1. #1

    Default [5NL] A4s...NFD facing bet and raise on flop

    BB - Only 12 hands on villain, seemed pretty fishy at 58/0/0 (3bet).

    MP - 30/28/12 (3bet) over 61 hands. Cbet of 90%, had seen villain raise with hands like T8o in CO.

    PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    MP: $5.53
    CO: $5.43
    BTN: $5.05
    Hero (SB): $6.00
    BB: $3.55
    UTG: $10.17

    Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has A 4

    fold, MP raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, fold, Hero calls $0.13, BB calls $0.10

    Flop: ($0.60, 4 players) K 5 9
    Hero checks, BB bets $0.25, MP raises to $0.90, fold, Hero???

    OK, how wide is CO raising here? Does he realise BB is a fish and wants to iso? Is he doing it with a marginal hand or a strong made hand.

    I put CO on this range (not sure if it's too wide or maybe not wide enough?)

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    23,760 games 0.000 secs 4,752,000 games/sec

    Board: Kd 9h 5h
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 35.223% 35.22% 00.00% 8369 0.00 { Ah4h }
    Hand 1: 64.777% 64.78% 00.00% 15391 0.00 { KK+, 99, 55, AKs, KhQh, QhJh, JhTh, AKo }

    I wasn't sure whether to just flat as BB hadn't shown any agg so far so couldn't see him 3betting. Can I fold here or do I want to get it AI?
    Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
  2. #2
    no KJ, KT, AA?

    What about the BB he isn't out of the hand yet.
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    no KJ, KT, AA?

    What about the BB he isn't out of the hand yet.
    I put AA in his range, KhJh and KhTh could be in his range.

    BB was 58/0/0, he could have anything and tbh I wasn't too concerned with what he had.
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  4. #4
    Well if you just think BB is going to call then you're getting awesome pot odds and as he is so bad you'll be getting awesome implied odds so it's an easy call.
  5. #5
    What was your pre-flop plan? A4s flops so crappy and being oop compounds the situation.

    Fold>3-Bet>Call before the flop.

    As played, fold and realize you shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place. Take notes on your opponents depending on how the hand plays out, especially if it goes to SD.
  6. #6
    ^ +1
    you should be looking at preflop IMO
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    What was your pre-flop plan? A4s flops so crappy and being oop compounds the situation.

    Fold>3-Bet>Call before the flop.

    As played, fold and realize you shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place. Take notes on your opponents depending on how the hand plays out, especially if it goes to SD.
    I was pretty sure that BB was going to call behind me so I had really good implied odds to play my hand, I think. I'm obviously not calling to hit an A, guess I am just trying to hit a good flop which this usually would have been had it not played out the way it did.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    Fold>3-Bet>Call before the flop.
    That's pretty nitty. Depending on how villain responds to 3bs (FT3B and FTCB in 3b pot) and what CO's deal is, squeezing is almost definitely profitable here. Honestly, I don't know when we ever squeeze if we're not at least consider it here.

    It's probably close between calling and folding, but if we think BB's gonna come along (reasonable assumption with him getting a BB discount on a 3bb open with 3 other players in the pot), then calling's probably better.

    On the flop, I'd really rather lead here in a 4-way pot on a board that's terrible for cbetting against players that are terrible to cbet against, but it's tough if the guy is cbetting 90%. Given the sample size and how much I prefer a lead to a check in general, though, I think I still lead for $0.50+ and go from there.

    As played, I probably just flat and hope the fish comes along.
  9. #9
    supa's Avatar
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    Never folding this hand pre with a pfr, a caller and a 58/0 in the BB. Given the way the hand played out though there is some good reasoning to look at our decision pre. If BB donk leads a lot and we can assume MP will raise the flop we can consider folding pre, but I'm still prolly not.

    Now that were here I think the decision should be based on us hitting our flush and pot odds, which we really don't have.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    23,760 games 0.000 secs 4,752,000 games/sec

    Board: Kd 9h 5h
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 35.223% 35.22% 00.00% 8369 0.00 { Ah4h }
    Hand 1: 64.777% 64.78% 00.00% 15391 0.00 { KK+, 99, 55, AKs, KhQh, QhJh, JhTh, AKo }

    I wasn't sure whether to just flat as BB hadn't shown any agg so far so couldn't see him 3betting. Can I fold here or do I want to get it AI?
    Vs. that range what kind of fold equity do you think we have? I can only see him folding 2 combos (QhJh, JhTh), so I think jamming is a losing play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but raising these kinds of spots is pretty dependant on fold equity and once MP raises the BB's donk I don't think we can have enough to raise profitably.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mondayscool View Post
    Vs. that range what kind of fold equity do you think we have? I can only see him folding 2 combos (QhJh, JhTh), so I think jamming is a losing play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but raising these kinds of spots is pretty dependant on fold equity and once MP raises the BB's donk I don't think we can have enough to raise profitably.
    Yeah, I think you're right, I have very little FE. Looks like just calling was probably the best option, thanks guys.
    Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    I was pretty sure that BB was going to call behind me so I had really good implied odds to play my hand, I think. I'm obviously not calling to hit an A, guess I am just trying to hit a good flop which this usually would have been had it not played out the way it did.
    Filter your HEM or PT for SB calls with A2s-A9s and see if you are making more money than folding long term.

    For implied odds hands, you want holdings that will make disguised hands against strong ranges that will likely get you paid off if you connect. Against a 30/28, is his range strong enough to pay you off often when you actually do connect?

    Multi-way I like the idea of playing pots with a fish, but you will be oop against both players.. I would like the situation a lot more if you and the BB's positions were reversed.

    So let's say the turn is a heart, how likely are you to get stacks in? Once a 3rd flush card hits, I doubt a 30/28 LAG is going to pay you off that often. Even the fish may recognize the possibility of a flush.

    I really think a pre-flop 3-bet against a weak range is much better than a call in this situation. But I actually just prefer a fold and move on. Avoiding marginal spots like this will really help the long term variance. At 5NL you don't exactly need to push small edges (not that this even is an edge necessarily) in order to profit. I recommend looking for clearer value spots and you will still fly through to 10NL and beyond.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    Filter your HEM or PT for SB calls with A2s-A9s and see if you are making more money than folding long term.

    For implied odds hands, you want holdings that will make disguised hands against strong ranges that will likely get you paid off if you connect. Against a 30/28, is his range strong enough to pay you off often when you actually do connect?

    Multi-way I like the idea of playing pots with a fish, but you will be oop against both players.. I would like the situation a lot more if you and the BB's positions were reversed.

    So let's say the turn is a heart, how likely are you to get stacks in? Once a 3rd flush card hits, I doubt a 30/28 LAG is going to pay you off that often. Even the fish may recognize the possibility of a flush.

    I really think a pre-flop 3-bet against a weak range is much better than a call in this situation. But I actually just prefer a fold and move on. Avoiding marginal spots like this will really help the long term variance. At 5NL you don't exactly need to push small edges (not that this even is an edge necessarily) in order to profit. I recommend looking for clearer value spots and you will still fly through to 10NL and beyond.
    Thanks a lot, that post is really helpful.

    @Bold - I may be interpreting styles incorrectly. Because he is a 30/28 I assume he is the kind of villain who doesn't like to fold hands, he is clearly quite an active player, so that should be exactly the type of player I want to be playing these type of hands against? I understand what you're saying with how wide his range is, however, how much of his range is he actually going to fold when he hits the board?

    If my thinking is way off, can you correct me please.
    Currently grinding live cash games. Life is good.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    Thanks a lot, that post is really helpful.

    @Bold - I may be interpreting styles incorrectly. Because he is a 30/28 I assume he is the kind of villain who doesn't like to fold hands, he is clearly quite an active player, so that should be exactly the type of player I want to be playing these type of hands against? I understand what you're saying with how wide his range is, however, how much of his range is he actually going to fold when he hits the board?


    If my thinking is way off, can you correct me please.
    I don't think your thinking is way off, a little skewed though. you only have 61 hands on villain. yeah he is surely active, but i run those kinda numbers all the time(26/22 over the long haul). his vpip/pfr gap is the most telling sign we can take @ 61 hands imo. not his 3b, or cbet%. And its telling me he is at least conscious of his stats, and is mostly raising/folding.

    And outlaw nailed it. when you flat his raise he's hitting his engine brake. Even if he's in city limits.....
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  15. #15
    supa's Avatar
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    Do we really need to rely on implied odds when we're calling .13 in what will surely be a .60 pot?

    Legit question. Not trying to be a smart ass.
    “Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all”

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  16. #16
    id 3bet the flop if we have a nitty image
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    id 3bet the flop if we have a nitty image
    because mp's raise is FOS a lot?? or Am i way off?
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw View Post
    I really think a pre-flop 3-bet against a weak range is much better than a call in this situation. But I actually just prefer a fold and move on. Avoiding marginal spots like this will really help the long term variance. At 5NL you don't exactly need to push small edges (not that this even is an edge necessarily) in order to profit. I recommend looking for clearer value spots and you will still fly through to 10NL and beyond.
    Depending on the PFR's 3b and position-related stats and reads on CO, this wouldn't be marginal at all. Just because it's a more complicated spot than vbetting TPGK against a fish doesn't mean that you should fold and wait for a better opportunity.
  19. #19
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    call > 3b to $2.20 ish, co has a weak made hand here most of the time, and you're happy getting it in hu vs the fish if he jams over after your action and co folds. If you 3b then you aren't folding obviously

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