$5 zone AA multiway 100bbs

zone on bovada.

hero is UTG with As Ah and opens .15
2 folds, BTN calls, BB calls
pot is .47
flop is 9s Jd Js
BB checks, hero bets .30 BTN calls BB calls
pot is 1.37
turn is 9d
BB checks Hero?? 91 BB behind effective

I feel like I should just check fold this flop. lol what do you guys think?

Check fold the flop? Never, any hand could move you out of the pot. You must bet out, as you did

Yeah i was joking about folding flop were ahead of 90% of villians range but what to do on turn? B/F,x/c,x/f??

{{ Moved from Beginners Circle. }}

Hi. We try to keep hand history posts in SSNL and general questions in the BC. Thanks.

Originally Posted by acg123

Yeah i was joking about folding flop were ahead of 90% of villians range but what to do on turn? B/F,x/c,x/f??

What are these Villains' ranges you hint at? Post them, please.

QQ-22,AJs-A2s,KJs-K9s,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

I removed all the premiums KK+, AKo,AJs+,

ive noticed in the 7k (I think) hands ive played on zone that people tend to flat a superwide range and 3bet a very tight one. i see people flat QQ,JJ IP all the time. well multiple times over a 7k sample, ive also seen cold 150BB shoves with A6o,KJo,KTo. lool

vs. the above range we have 73% equity on flop. i also modified range include hands that villain will flat here, which is:
3 of a kind
two pair ( PPs, and 9s)
A high
K high
two overs
OESD/DBB
FD

OTT

we have 57% vs a range of
full houses
ace high ( i don't expect them to fold due to possible chop)
king high ( same as above)
FDs, nut and non nut

so theres my answer, b/f turn eval river. thx mojo for making me put in work.

Originally Posted by acg123

QQ-22,AJs-A2s,KJs-K9s,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

vs. the above range we have 73% equity on flop.

There are 2 Villains with those ranges. I think you only set 1 Villain when you did your equity calc.
With 2 Villains holding that same range, you have 55% equity OTF.

Originally Posted by acg123

ive noticed in the 7k (I think) hands ive played on zone that people tend to flat a superwide range and 3bet a very tight one. i see people flat QQ,JJ IP all the time. well multiple times over a 7k sample, ive also seen cold 150BB shoves with A6o,KJo,KTo. lool

How would you suggest modifying your "standard" ranges to maximise EV when Villains play so predictably poory?

Originally Posted by acg123

i also modified range include hands that villain will flat here, which is:
3 of a kind
two pair ( PPs, and 9s)
A high
K high
two overs
OESD/DBB
FD

That means villains are only folding 6 combos out of 195.

Your filter OTT eliminates nothing. Your equity OTT is ~50% against 2 opponents who have continued with the entire opening range you stated.

50% equity and 2 non-folders leads me to believe that a bet is in order. For every $2 that goes into the pot, you expect $1 back. You bet $2, both opponents call. You just turned $2 into $3. Print tha monies.

B/F is almost always right on Bovada ring games without a further read, so I'm going to say B/F on the Zone.

Mojo,
Quote 1
Correct, i did only set one vil. Ty for pointing that out.

Quote 2
Idk, i just play like a nit, 77+, A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,A2s-A5s,AQo+,KQo
3bet all my aces,kings,and pairs
4bet all my pairs and AKo,AQs+
Fold the rest
I mean they call wide, and never fold these are going to be our bread and butter theres no need for balancing as you cant tell one player from the next and neither can they. They dont know how tight im playing so i just print monies mostly. Theres some swings when theyre catching their cards but i know it will pay off long term. You basically have to treat everyone the same and play the "pool".

Quote 3

idk what i was doing, sometimes when im playing i put villians on a range before the flop and when that range flops hard i auto tighten up. I know this is a bet, i just rationalize bad thought process sometimes.


Thanks for the replies mojo, really helped me out there. I havent put in much zone time been on the PLO tables and sngs.

Whats your thoughts on my response to quote 2?

Playing "like a nit" is fine, but you only posted 1 range. If you play the same range from all positions, then you're really shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring the vast importance of position.

***
I think that 3-betting Kx hands and weak PP is going to cost you. You can realize greater equity by keeping the pot a bit smaller, and keeping your opponents' ranges wider. These are drawing hands, and you make big monies on these hands by hitting the board, not bluffing pre-flop.

I think 4-betting your PP into a range that is heavily weighted toward AA, KK, AK is prob costing you a lot of monies.

I think A2s - A6s are great 3-bet bluffing hands. They have good equity against KK- and the 3-bet can fold out a lot of better hands that you wont want to face up against. Non-premium AX hands should not continue here, so you're folding out hands that beat you.

If you 3-bet all of your aces, then you're going to find that you're throwing away equity against all your Villains weaker AX hands.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

If you play the same range from all positions, then you're really shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring the vast importance of position.

your definitely right there, but I decided to play 10k hands opening pretty much all my value hands only as I haven't been play NLH online in awhile. ive played tons of PLO but no cash holdem so I wanted to see the types of situations im going to be in playing on bovada and against the villians. ive noticed that opening 66-22 UTG or in MP are very tough in zone. you end up barreling too many turns and rivers with too little equity. so I eliminated them from those positions. I play slightly wider than I depicted that range is for UTG and MP. CO and BTN I open up a little bit but not much. as I said I just want to get a feel for the ranges and situations.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I think that 3-betting Kx hands and weak PP is going to cost you. You can realize greater equity by keeping the pot a bit smaller, and keeping your opponents' ranges wider. These are drawing hands, and you make big monies on these hands by hitting the board, not bluffing pre-flop.

only from blinds vs. CO or BTN. or to iso a big stack IP, cuz anyone over 100bbs will play like a tard. people don't ever flat AK,AQ so my Kx hands do well vs. their calling range. which is mostly PPs, s.c.s and broadways without an Ace.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I think 4-betting your PP into a range that is heavily weighted toward AA, KK, AK is prob costing you a lot of monies.

i see this is a recurring thing now, i don't give enough information in my post. lol
im 4betting 77+,AK,AQs+. vs. villain KK+,AQs+,AKo we have 44% range vs range. but to note, ive seen a lot of KT,KJ,A3,Q9,K3 etc. type hands showing up in 3bet pots IP vs. me. Most of those hands have decent equity vs. my PPs but will fold to a 4bet so i would rather win the money now. i 4bet to usually 2.5-2.75x their raise. theres also sizing tells i wont go into because those are much dependant on the day you play, after about an hour you will pick up on which size is the nuts today. somedays 5x is always aces, other days its the min3bet, all depends. these ranges aren't concrete more a guideline to keep me from getting out of line barreling off money vs bobos who i wont have an opportunity to get back.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

If you 3-bet all of your aces, then you're going to find that you're throwing away equity against all your Villains weaker AX hands.

which hands are we flatting for value?

which hands are we flatting for value?

Check out the vast collection of threads posted by spoonitnow.

I'm not sure exactly which articles cover this, but he does such a good job with this kind of stuff that I suggest you start here.

His articles on the [0, 1] game really helped me to see how to structure my ranges as pertains to max value. Again, I'm not sure if this is what you're thinking about right now.

Originally Posted by acg123

I feel like I should just check fold this flop. lol what do you guys think?

i feel like you should not just check fold this flop