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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #20851
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    So I withdrew from a math class with pretty much the worst professor I've ever had (nice guy and wicked smart, but terrible at structuring education). It was right before an exam I knew I was gonna bomb. After he graded them, he sent this out to the students: "In reviewing your exams, I am convinced that most of you are confused or even utterly baffled by some of the material that we covered in the first part of the course."

    I lol'd.

    On a related note, I find it weird that the two main math professors I've had at this uni have had to consistently do exam regrades and provide extra credit because of poor performance from students. When do they realize that their teaching is the problem? The material is not hard, but I cannot for the life of me pick it up from their lectures and the books they use. It's as if their pedagogy is "here are some definitions and some theorems. Understand them and apply them." Meanwhile the math I'm studying from external sources (ones that exist in a highly competitive market omgomg) are fantastic and learning is a breeze.
    You already know the answer to why this happens lol
  2. #20852
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    You already know the answer to why this happens lol
    Because lack of innovation due to lack of competition due to government subsidization. If you were thinking of something else, let me know.

    I personally find their bad teaching weird because I am an intuit on this sort of thing, so I see what they do wrong and don't see why they don't.
  3. #20853
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Because lack of innovation due to lack of competition due to government subsidization. If you were thinking of something else, let me know.

    I personally find their bad teaching weird because I am an intuit on this sort of thing, so I see what they do wrong and don't see why they don't.
    It's incredibly more difficult to pick up on what you do badly as opposed to what someone else does badly. Not to mention a lot of the time people who pick faults with the way lecturers do things are doing so in a personal way. When I was speaking to students who are 16-18 they'd moan about their teachers (who'd have thought 1 on 1 tutoring is easier and more effective) without having any understanding of why their teachers did certain things when some of those things were actually really good. Obviously some of the complains were valid.

    If these lecturers have been doing it a while they probably just haven't put the required effort into their teaching as the years have gone by. It's always easier to blame how other things have changed, it's not uncommon for teachers to put the blame on students, rather than realise you need to adapt more & I imagine that becomes more difficult as you get older.
  4. #20854
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    Wuf, I felt the same way, and it was incredibly frustrating.

    Even with the other competitive books though, I failed to understand the class. Alot of that was my refusal to put more than 2 hrs a night into trying to learn it though. Then I fell behind, and it became seemingly impossible to catch up.

    Perhaps spending hours in the professors office would have helped, but my ego never let me do that
  5. #20855
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    It's incredibly more difficult to pick up on what you do badly as opposed to what someone else does badly. Not to mention a lot of the time people who pick faults with the way lecturers do things are doing so in a personal way. When I was speaking to students who are 16-18 they'd moan about their teachers (who'd have thought 1 on 1 tutoring is easier and more effective) without having any understanding of why their teachers did certain things when some of those things were actually really good. Obviously some of the complains were valid.
    Yeah. I don't like student reviews one bit. At best all they can do is point out egregious errors by way of frequent complaints; at worst they're a smorgasbord of mostly worthless complaints. What I like even less though is that educators don't have their own educators on education. Universities need to have other phds whose job is exclusively to evaluate and educate the other professors on how to do their jobs. It's silly that if you're progressing through any subject, you are thought to need instruction, but if you're an instructor, you're thought of as an expert on the subject of instruction and given full reign.

    Right now colleges have it ass backwards, where instructors get their feet held to the fire by only administrators who get most of their input from frustrated students and statistical distribution of results.
  6. #20856
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Yeah. I don't like student reviews one bit. At best all they can do is point out egregious errors by way of frequent complaints; at worst they're a smorgasbord of mostly worthless complaints. What I like even less though is that educators don't have their own educators on education. Universities need to have other phds whose job is exclusively to evaluate and educate the other professors on how to do their jobs. It's silly that if you're progressing through any subject, you are thought to need instruction, but if you're an instructor, you're thought of as an expert on the subject of instruction and given full reign.

    Right now colleges have it ass backwards, where instructors get their feet held to the fire by only administrators who get most of their input from frustrated students and statistical distribution of results.
    It's pretty hard to rate the teaching of subjects you don't understand yourself & having people to rate the teaching of specific subjects doesn't seem feasible.

    It's also fair to say that a lot of people who are lecturing subjects at university aren't in the job for that it's just something they have to do as part of their wider job role. Which is all well and good when you're giving lectures on more complicated modules later on but for the more general basic stuff earlier on it's not great.
  7. #20857
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    It's pretty hard to rate the teaching of subjects you don't understand yourself & having people to rate the teaching of specific subjects doesn't seem feasible.
    That is correct, but I think some principles are true across the board. For example, clear definitions of each necessary element, specific techniques on how to approach the problems, step-by-step methodology, and detailed solutions should be mandatory for all instruction on quantitative material. I got this from my calculus teacher and I got better at the material than most other math majors who are deeper intuits on the subject, and I didn't have any of what I call "anti-studying" moments where I was trying to study but getting nowhere and didn't have enough reference to start getting somewhere. I didn't get this from my upper division math professors, and I feel very weak with the material and grades have reflected. This same distinction has been true in the other quantitative classes I've taken, including economics and chemistry.

    Beyond that, specialized positions can work here, where the overseer of the math department is somebody with a phd in math but who has also been deemed by the administration to specialize in education strategies (or an education strategy specialist who has developed a deep enough understanding of math). These types of specialties exist everywhere else. For example, lots of people who are employed for a job other than "Proficient Excel User" are still expected to be proficient with Excel. The problem as it is now is that there isn't even a desire or market for any of this.

    It's also fair to say that a lot of people who are lecturing subjects at university aren't in the job for that it's just something they have to do as part of their wider job role. Which is all well and good when you're giving lectures on more complicated modules later on but for the more general basic stuff earlier on it's not great.
    Troo. I chose to transfer to a university where this isn't the case (these professors are hired to teach, not research) because I thought I would be getting better instruction. Sadly, I'm not.

    By now, don't think I'm complaining though. Things will be easy-ish here on out as I'm dropping math and picking up economics and only taking classes I enjoy and am intuitive with. Plus the econ department seems to kick butt.
  8. #20858
    I'll add that I think the reasons these changes aren't being made to the university system is because then it would become quite obvious that the lecture class is obsolete. We don't need a thousand marginally-revised textbooks each year and we don't need redundant regional lecture. We need a handful of organizations that compete on format for textbooks and video solutions that can be mass dispersed, and the university place needs to be a library with programs and tutors, not residential grounds with lecturers and class grades.

    My formal education should be monthly payment for access to the library-tutor-university and payment per exam. An assortment of exams passed should qualify for specific certifications or designations, and an assortment of those should qualify for specific degrees. In this paradigm, areas could be sectioned with specific tutors always on the clock. When you're stumped, you could raise hand or get in a queue or whatever streamlined methods best provide for the tutors to come to you promptly and by demand. Different fields require unique elements, like workshops for English and labs for sciences, of which would require a more rigorous scheduling. Some of the highest level stuff possibly still needs a lecture format, but I have yet to find anything in the undergraduate level that does.

    The times that I have blown through material at a far faster pace and developed deeper understanding was when the structure was more like this.


    If anybody wonders why university exams are constantly being dumbed down, the university structure not being like this is part of why. When you pay for classes and can't retake exams, the exams are forced to be easy enough that you get enough first time passes. Imagine how bad lawyers would be and how few of them would exist if they could only take the bar once each. To accommodate this silly structure, the bar would have to be dumbed down tremendously.


    Tangentially related, this fact is a way that it can be seen that private entities are better at raising standards than public ones. All the private exams (bar, CPA, actuary, university exams back before government subsidized them) are soooooooo much harder than current university exams. In private enterprise, it pays to innovate to allow you to raise standards, but in publicly-funded entities, it doesn't and standards just keep dropping.
  9. #20859
    There is irony in that the area-specific class lecture was created due to its effectiveness at communicating to the largest audience, yet today there are other colossally more effective modes of communication, yet we can't adopt them because of how heavily subsidized with tax revenues the obsolete lecture format is.
  10. #20860
    JKDS's Avatar
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    Why do companies train people with lecturers?

    Some universities do have a queue-like tutor program. It's usually in the library, but is only for the dumb classes. There arnt enough smarties to be able to have such a thing for the difficult subjects, and the ones that are available have busy schedules. They're often reluctant too since they can be reached throughout the day for personal 1-on-1 questions during office hours. In addition, difficult classes are smaller and turnout for tutoring/office hours is minimal.

    I expect mmm would agree with my turnout thoughts, even considering his class size of over 100.

    Id also point out that most attorneys think the bar is a waste of time, needlessly difficult, and incredibly ineffective at producing good attorneys. It's a financial barrier at best. The actuary exam is incredibly difficult, and the amount of discipline needed to self study through it is more than most can handle. I can't speak to the other exams.
  11. #20861
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    I expect mmm would agree with my turnout thoughts, even considering his class size of over 100.

    true

    It's actually ~500 students in the introphys program. It's physics for science majors who aren't physics majors. There are 6 courses offered, not counting the evening class which is mostly adult professionals, and a special case.

    I'm lucky if I get a student during my open office hour. Or unlucky, now that I bring a guitar with me to the TA office.

    I promise the lab students that if they come to my office to talk about a graded lab report that I will definitely give them points back, and still... only occasionally does anyone come and see me.

    It all boils down to the fact that they don't respect their education; they only respect their grades. They generally feel like their assignments are something that is done to them rather than an opportunity that few people get to take advantage of.

    *sigh*
    *shrug*

    It is what it is.
  12. #20862
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Why do companies train people with lecturers?
    It's common, easy, and cheap at small scales requiring extreme specialization since virtually all companies have different things they need their employees to know. I'm talking about the non-specific stuff, which is what you get at the undergraduate level. Calculus hasn't changed in forever, yet instruction of it is pretty much left up to the individual instructor. We should have already coalesced on the best strategies for calculus learning.

    Some universities do have a queue-like tutor program.
    I used them for differential calculus and learned so much. I came into that class unsure if I had the talent to tackle the subject and it was the walk-in tutoring that got me through it. I had to learn so much stuff that I should have already been comfortable with that it would have been burdensome to try to get through it any other way.

    It's usually in the library, but is only for the dumb classes. There arnt enough smarties to be able to have such a thing for the difficult subjects, and the ones that are available have busy schedules. They're often reluctant too since they can be reached throughout the day for personal 1-on-1 questions during office hours. In addition, difficult classes are smaller and turnout for tutoring/office hours is minimal.
    There's no money in it. I'm advocating for an overhaul of what masters and phd level instructors are hired for. They should be hired as tutors for a large proportion of what they are now lecturers for instead. The current tutoring paradigm has the holes it does for the reasons you give, that it's made up of other students who have little incentive and ability to tutor the material.

    One way to look at this is that we now have the technology for a handful of video lectures to reach literally every student in the modern world by pushing a button, yet instead we're still shuffling into classrooms to hear somebody who is mostly not vetted and free to teach as he pleases????? Education institutions should be buying the top quality books and videos put out by companies competing to make the most attractive and effective product, not paying professors to lecture to classes of 30 or grad students to lecture to classes of 300 (I've been told the latter is how it often works at huge state universities).

    Id also point out that most attorneys think the bar is a waste of time, needlessly difficult, and incredibly ineffective at producing good attorneys. It's a financial barrier at best. The actuary exam is incredibly difficult, and the amount of discipline needed to self study through it is more than most can handle. I can't speak to the other exams.
    Indeed. Exams are egregiously overused. However, the needlessly difficult aspect of the private ones is an easy and hamfisted method to keep quality in the field high. I'm not saying they get it right, but that they get it better than the subsidized institution where there's downward pressure on quality.



    Here's one way to look at it and see that there's a deep problem: why do I have lecturers and textbooks written by people not the lecturers? This gives me two different teachers for one subject, with their two different strategies and two different sets of idiosyncrasies. This just causes unnecessary redundancy and overlap.

    Also how is there no "how to learn this material" element to instruction? When was the last time a math instructor said "here is this specific problem type, here are the specific relevant definitions and how to use them, here are the specific quantity of thought processes/procedures/steps to solve it, here's a pre-made annotated solution to solve it, here is a different problem that is virtually the same but with different numbers for you to solve on your own, and here are three more problems that are really similar to practice what you know and see what you can figure out. You will not be expected to solve anything in the homework for which you do not have annotated solutions. Only the exams are graded and they will closely reflect a proportion of the material for which annotated solutions have been provided."

    I would have CRUSHED every math class so far if I had that and most people are similar. Pedagogy today is a mess. It doesn't even solve the most easy to solve problems like realizing that homework should not be graded and that homework being graded in the first place is a norm that arose from teachers having to know what children were doing so as for them to not fall behind. The fact that universities for adults has graded homework shows just have shallow its development of education strategies has come.
  13. #20863
    The thing is your second to last paragraph where you outline what they should be doing is exactly what they shouldn't be doing. In fact I'm genuinely surprised that you haven't been made aware of that because it's the bog standard thing that students want whilst being massively unhelpful. Funnily enough because they want to get grades rather than learn.

    It goes back to my point about people not being qualified to critique. You don't know what the end game is so it's pretty hard to make a valid argument that the people who do are teaching you the wrong things.

    It becomes incredibly difficult to put things into boxes like you seem to want lecturers to do. Most of the things you mention that were put into boxes and you found easier are actually those that can be, somewhat.
    Last edited by Savy; 04-10-2016 at 12:39 AM.
  14. #20864
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I'm lucky if I get a student during my open office hour. Or unlucky, now that I bring a guitar with me to the TA office.
    It can be hard to do. It's not the most efficient process. This is one of the main reasons why I think walk-in tutoring in library settings works best. Then students can do their homework and just raise hands and get help right when they have a question.

    For me to get help from my math professors, I have to not be busy in their office hour window, pack up my shit, leave the library, walk five minutes, and hope they're not busy. Setting appointments is a hassle and is only effective for the most structured of individuals and is inefficient since it makes for a disjointed tackling of the problems since once you're stumped you have to wait til the appointment to get back to it. On top of that, it can be hard to talk to teachers since usually the best question to ask them is for the answer and how they got there. They don't like giving that out. They want students to learn by deduction from principle, which is backwards since deduction from principle is mostly a skill that comes after you're comfortable with the material.

    I promise the lab students that if they come to my office to talk about a graded lab report that I will definitely give them points back, and still... only occasionally does anyone come and see me.
    That baffles me too. I would use the shit out of that.

    It all boils down to the fact that they don't respect their education; they only respect their grades.
    This is very, very true. The best explanations (from economists) that I've seen for why this is the case is because what students need is the degree, not the education. The job market is structured in such a way that employers care so much about the degree that you're better off having it yet being a total incompetent moron with no skills than having solid skills yet no degree. My sister-in-law has been with a tech giant for near a dozen years, and she has told me that you can't even get an interview without a degree, yet it doesn't matter what your degree is in in order to get one. Only after you have the degree do they start caring about the rest of your resume. And this is the industry that should be the least degree-oriented and most skills-oriented since computer tech is all about specific skills and only marginally about liberal arts education.

    Employers employ this bias for mostly two reasons: (1) the incentive to do so is huge since the government is paying for everybody to go to college. Bachelors degrees become a sorting mechanism for employers since there is over-supply of bachelors holders and they're already paying for this mechanism through taxes. (2) University education is naturally a signalling mechanism, i.e., the ability to sit through stuff you don't want to for years and learn things that you will never use and have no interest in signals that you are Grade A material as an employee. Both of these elements are what an economist (Bryan Caplan) has coined as "stable waste." The university system is wasteful, but employers understand it well enough that it provides valuable stability, so they dont try to subvert it.

    The unfortunate thing is that in the name of trying to ward off those notorious "disparate outcomes," the government has cannonballed into this stable waste at the expense of, well, taxpayers, the economy, and the ability for the education system itself to innovate efficiently.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 04-10-2016 at 02:23 AM.
  15. #20865
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    The thing is your second to last paragraph where you outline what they should be doing is exactly what they shouldn't be doing. In fact I'm genuinely surprised that you haven't been made aware of that because it's the bog standard thing that students want whilst being massively unhelpful. Funnily enough because they want to get grades rather than learn.

    It goes back to my point about people not being qualified to critique. You don't know what the end game is so it's pretty hard to make a valid argument that the people who do are teaching you the wrong things.

    It becomes incredibly difficult to put things into boxes like you seem to want lecturers to do. Most of the things you mention that were put into boxes and you found easier are actually those that can be, somewhat.
    It's how material is taught for the hardest exams. University calculus is nothing in difficulty compared to Society of Actuaries math, and the companies that instruct courses for the exams are at great risk of going out of business if their subscribers don't learn the material fast enough and well enough use the techniques I laid out to a much greater degree than the typical university professor.

    This is also how knowledge and skills are taught in every field outside of academia, from plumbing to programming. It's all process, copy and paste, and trial and error. Memorization and repetition of techniques is the backbone of knowledge and skill. Emergent from those comes intuition and abstract reasoning. The classes people struggle the most in are ones where they're not provided enough to use trial and error and develop repetition. It's asinine in the quantitative sciences where a huge chunk of material turned in to be graded is done so without the student having much of a clue if it's correct.

    My n=1 is in how I got better at most calculus stuff than the typical math major (who are mostly math intuits). I am the last person who should have ever gone through calculus, as math is the one thing in the world I am the worst at. But I succeeded because I had a teacher who used those techniques more. It is only now that I'm stuck with dreadful teachers who reject these techniques that I stopped learning anything. Yet it's not just me, as many other students in the class that are better at math than me are doing poorly. The material isn't even hard; it's just taught like it's the hardest thing in the world. And the irony of it all is I'm now using an entirely different source to learn the same material instead, and even though the questions are MUCH harder, I'm breezing through it.

    I'm not unique in this regard. I know a number of people who are intuits in quantitative material who did well with the teachers who used the techniques I presented yet are struggling greatly with the teachers who do not. The small handful of top level intuits don't need these techniques, but they're also the types who the classes aren't even for since they're the kind of people that can contemplate definitions and theorems, deduce, and solve.

    For the most part, people who are good at mental skills are good at them because of what they have memorized and the thought-techniques they use. Some people can intuit these things easier than others. Regardless, they should be taught explicitly.

    I would have flunked pre-calculus if it was taught the way my current crummy math professors teach. But instead I learned way more math than I ever imagined I could with teachers that followed to some degree what I outlined.

    One of the greatest tragedies in the modern western world is the huge number of people who think of themselves as dumb because they didn't do well in school. I know many of these people, and they are no less intelligent than my professors. They are merely people who are not intuits on the primary academic subjects yet are intuits on other things (like, say, mechanical fields or comedy). Because academia is taught by intuits who present the material as if students are intuits, many who are not intuits get spit out and told they're dumb. Since teachers are almost always intuits in their fields yet not intuits or barely educated in the field of education, they need editorializing. The textbooks they write need to be edited and approved by those trained in education. This is super standard practice in everything except academia. Academia perpetuating this inefficiency is probably because everybody reveres professors so highly. They get free reign to maintain pedagogy that spits people out and makes them think they're dumb.

    One of the undercurrents to all this is that many academics want things to be this way. They don't necessarily realize it, but some systematically push back at efforts to make education work better for non-intuits. Academics have unusual intellectual skills and they think that it's through those skills that new knowledge is developed. On this issue, they could be correct, I honestly don't know. But I suspect they are not correct since the way new knowledge is developed in academic fields is typically by accident (they try to solve one thing and end up solving something else inadvertently), and that there is little evidence that the rest of the world works the way academics is structured to.

    Well that was fucking long. I don't blame you for not reading it. I tried to make each paragraph a unique point.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 04-10-2016 at 01:58 AM.
  16. #20866
    I should add that the teacher who used the techniques I laid out better than others had the hardest exams I've ever taken, and I aced them all. When you teach things well, you can make your exams tough.

    Contrast this to my terrible teachers, where I've bombed exams full of much easier questions. Even the easiest question is hard when the time you spend studying is a lot of hitting your head against the wall because the instruction material doesn't provide enough reference points to get out of tough spots.

    I bombed the shit out of my first two midterms in intro stats. I was frustrated as hell because it was obvious the material is no more intellectually challenging than intermediate algebra and trigonometry, yet I aced the final because by that point I finally had detailed solutions to all the material we had covered in class. From solutions analysis I learned all the material like I was eating cupcakes. Detailed solutions are easily the most important tool for quantitative material because they tell you what you're doing, why you're doing it, and where to go when you're stumped in order to get unstumped.
  17. #20867
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    The thing is your second to last paragraph where you outline what they should be doing is exactly what they shouldn't be doing. In fact I'm genuinely surprised that you haven't been made aware of that because it's the bog standard thing that students want whilst being massively unhelpful. Funnily enough because they want to get grades rather than learn.

    It goes back to my point about people not being qualified to critique. You don't know what the end game is so it's pretty hard to make a valid argument that the people who do are teaching you the wrong things.

    It becomes incredibly difficult to put things into boxes like you seem to want lecturers to do. Most of the things you mention that were put into boxes and you found easier are actually those that can be, somewhat.
    I reread after responding to make sure I didn't miss something. It's possible I missed your main point, so my response to that is as follows.

    What I laid out isn't about making it easy to get grades and is instead about making learning easy. Many people (including some academics) are afraid of these techniques because they're, well, forgetting some of the relevant variables. With what I laid out, the material taught can be harder and of greater quantity because the students are using more effective techniques to learn how to solve the problems.

    If in beginner algebra I was expected to figure out how to cancel a root by squaring both sides, I would have spent forever beating my head over the book and then eventually walked away from the class and not touched mathematics again. But because the teacher would say "and now we square both sides to cancel the square root," I learned a technique and moved on. Additionally, it is by already being given the detailed solution that I was able to reverse engineer it and figure out why squaring a root clears the root. If you're a math intuit, it might seem weird that somebody could not quickly understand why squaring a square root cancels both the root and the square, but trust me, it took me a long ass time. It wasn't until months later when I was doing unit circle stuff that it finally clicked. If I had earlier been made to come to that understanding through deduction instead of being "given the answer" by the instructor, I wouldn't have learned algebra in the first place.

    This sort of technique, thought-process, step-oriented approach works at basically all levels of material. People learn intellectual stuff not unlike they learn to swing a hammer.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 04-10-2016 at 02:59 AM.
  18. #20868
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    @wufwugy: Sounds like you're feeling the stress of being a student, but I really disagree with the majority of your points.

    There's too long a wall of text to try to pick them out.

    Professors writing their own books generally results in under-edited and poorly worded texts. I used 3 text books during my undergrad which were written by the professors, and only 1 of them was good. It was mostly pictures, since it was more of an instruction manual on how to use a certain 3D modeling software. The other two were really confusing.

    The problem is that they need more people to go over them and work out the confusing bits. Both of the books with actual homework problems in them suffered from being practically incomprehensible if you hadn't sat through the lectures and heard how the professor abuses the language. It's great to be able to directly talk with the person who wrote the text, but bad that it's basically mandatory to understand the text.

    Editing is important.

    ***
    I'm a bit surprised that you aren't thinking of how / why people aren't economically motivated to correct these problems you see.

    If the colleges were cranking out ignorant students, would the companies have any need of those students? Wouldn't the more rigorous schools get all the respect? (Oh wait....)
  19. #20869
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I'm a bit surprised that you aren't thinking of how / why people aren't economically motivated to correct these problems you see.
    That's most of what I've been doing.

    If the colleges were cranking out ignorant students, would the companies have any need of those students? Wouldn't the more rigorous schools get all the respect? (Oh wait....)
    I didn't say anything to the contrary. In fact I'm arguing for how schools can become substantially more rigorous than they are. The classes I have done poorly in are not ones with difficult material but with bad teaching of the material. The material in those poorly taught classes tends to actually be easier than in the better taught ones.

    Here's a story: I asked one of my instructors why he didn't use practice exams and his response was that if he did that then the material on the practice exam would be the only thing the students would study/learn. This is correct, but his response to it was the wrong one. He was missing the fact that the denominator is changeable and he disregarded the economical attribute of the learning method. When you believe that practice exams are effective tools for students to learn yet you think they don't cover enough material, then put more material on the practice exams. Teachers should identify what they want their students to learn, put all of that on practice exams and provide detailed solutions, and then make it clear that a proportion of that material will appear on the real exam.

    This method is powerful. It's the same method used for the actuarial prelims, which are notoriously harder than undergraduate exams.
  20. #20870
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Teachers should identify what they want their students to learn, put all of that on practice exams and provide detailed solutions, and then make it clear that a proportion of that material will appear on the real exam.
    Read - I want to regurgitate answers to pass exams.
  21. #20871
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Read - I want to regurgitate answers to pass exams.
    lol
  22. #20872
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Read - I want to regurgitate answers to pass exams.
    It's about actually learning the material. I have expressed nothing unusual and it aligns with far more robust and rigorous systems than the system I'm critiquing.

    It's a virtue to care about results more than prejudices.
  23. #20873
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    The thing is this, wuf.

    Studies show that it doesn't matter what professors show you or what, specifically, they talk about. What matters is that you are focused on the material. Various teaching methods around the world produce the same scale of physicists and doctors. Sure, some do better or worse, but not based on teaching methods. What matters is that the students try to learn.

    Consider this: If the courses were easy and obvious and you could figure it out on your own, then what are you paying tuition for?
    I posit that you're paying to be challenged by material which is presented at a pace which is equally challenging. You're paying to be in an environment where people who have some claim to expertise are there to guide you through this process.

    If you're not getting your money's worth, then find a school that challenges you in a way that you like. If it's too late to switch to another school, then try to realize that you have a rare opportunity that has a definite ending point, and you can absolutely get through it. You're almost definitely paying for more perks than you take advantage of... try to find out which ones would actually improve the quality of your life.
  24. #20874
    Knowledge and mental skills are all recall and recognition. Even math intuits are still just recalling and recognizing their math information and techniques.

    If this was not true, it would necessarily mean discovery would be easy, common, and come by direction. Yet it isn't like that; instead discovery is mostly accidental and comes through abundance of trial and error by recalling and recognizing onto new things.

    Exams are NOT about creative application. If they were, everybody would fail every exam just like top level mathematicians fail over and over when trying to solve problems nobody yet knows how to solve. Since exams are exclusively about showing recall and recognition, exam preparation should acknowledge this.
  25. #20875
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The thing is this, wuf.

    Studies show that it doesn't matter what professors show you or what, specifically, they talk about. What matters is that you are focused on the material. Various teaching methods around the world produce the same scale of physicists and doctors. Sure, some do better or worse, but not based on teaching methods. What matters is that the students try to learn.
    One likely reason is because people tend to be intuits in the fields they go into. Intuits can get away with lower quality instruction.

    My concern is about non-intuits. From my personal experience and from what I have assessed in the landscape, teaching techniques matter greatly here. I only got through calculus because it was taught to me as if I was not an intuit. The cherry on top is that the calculus material I went through was actually harder than most other calculus courses and I have come away with some better skills on some aspects of the subject than some peers who are naturally more intuitive with the material. I chalk up the increased difficulty of the material I was taught due to the the high quality teaching methods my instructor employed.

    What matters is that you are focused on the material.
    I was as focused on the material in the math classes I dropped as I was in the ones I got 4.0 in. The difference was that in the ones I dropped, the instructors and books did not give us that much information and instead employed the "here are some definitions and theorems; figure the rest out yourself" strategy. I spent many hours of study getting nowhere. Contrast this to my instructors and textbooks that provide much more detailed information on the problem solving process and thought process, where I always had reference points and was making progress even when it was tough.


    Story: I had a question about a homework assignment for one of my professors. He told me to read a specific page of the book. I read it half a dozen times over two days and spent at least an hour trying to put something sensible on paper. I then went back to the professor and told him what I had and that I knew I was not understanding this. He told me to read the page again. I told him I read it several times. He printed up a succinct solution he wrote for it. After reading this, I quickly saw my mistake. It was the most simple, easiest thing ever, yet it was an entirely new concept to me that I hadn't come across before.

    Instead of the professor helping me to think correctly about the material, he tried to get me to figure it out on my own. This likely resulted in a net cost to me given the level of stress and the fact that I didn't bother to go back to him for help for the rest of the semester. I think academics tend to treat the brain as if it's a muscle. They want it stressed and used in order to grow. But the brain doesn't work like a muscle. Its connections are laid down by experience and reinforced by practice. When the brain is trying to solve problems yet it is thinking wrongly about things, this can cause more problems than benefits. Working through problems is important, but being lost, using poor ideas and techniques, and thinking wrongly about the material is not. The teacher is there to show me how and what to think.

    I remember a chemistry lab, where most of the material we needed to answer the questions was not addressed by the teacher or the book. I got bad grades on the labs AND I didn't learn anything because every time I got one of the labs back (which I thought I got everything right on) I saw how much I had gotten wrong and I realized I had spent hours reinforcing the wrong ideas.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 04-10-2016 at 01:52 PM.
  26. #20876
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    The math courses you're talking about are NOT easy. Even if taught well, they are very difficult courses. Most cover problems where famous mathematicians spent their entire life attempting to solve...when others spent their entire life failing to solve it.

    But math also isn't made for regurgitation. After you get past a certain point, it's no longer about inputs and outputs. It's now about seeing problems, and figuring out on your own how to use past tools to solve those problems. Part of it does involve figuring out what to do when you have no idea. (Including where to go for help, researching, etc)

    That's the biggest issue I had with math. Nobody told me about this switch from regurgitation to inginuity, and it caught me majorly off guard. People talked about how difficult "vector calculus" was, but I breezed through it because it was still just regurgitation. No one told me that courses like "statistics" stopped being regurgitation and started becoming "hey, remember all that other stuff? Figure out how it can help solve this problem".
  27. #20877
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    The math courses you're talking about are NOT easy. Even if taught well, they are very difficult courses. Most cover problems where famous mathematicians spent their entire life attempting to solve...when others spent their entire life failing to solve it.

    But math also isn't made for regurgitation. After you get past a certain point, it's no longer about inputs and outputs. It's now about seeing problems, and figuring out on your own how to use past tools to solve those problems. Part of it does involve figuring out what to do when you have no idea. (Including where to go for help, researching, etc)

    That's the biggest issue I had with math. Nobody told me about this switch from regurgitation to inginuity, and it caught me majorly off guard. People talked about how difficult "vector calculus" was, but I breezed through it because it was still just regurgitation. No one told me that courses like "statistics" stopped being regurgitation and started becoming "hey, remember all that other stuff? Figure out how it can help solve this problem".
    I'm not sure that I think regurgitation works at even the low levels. As simple as integration by parts is, you can't just regurgitate and get the right answer consistently. If you try it that way, you'll make mistakes like dropping signs too often or accidentally differentiating v' instead of integrating. Those are at least two common mistakes that I smoothed through with practice that I don't think I could have if I was attempting regurgitation.

    Clearly there is something going on. The external actuarial stuff I'm using is substantially harder material than the related stuff I've done in classes, yet I learn it pretty well whereas the stuff in class is hell. The actuarial stuff has a tremendous amount of "think things through; get creative" stuff, but it's structured in such a way that when I'm stumped, I can work my way out of it by reviewing the textbook and examples. But the stuff in classes has such enormous gaps in explanation that the textbooks are often worthless and the lectures only cover about 1/3rd of what I need.

    Also if it looks like I'm complaining, I'll stop. I'm not really that frustrated by this anymore since I'm past it. It's just debate to me now.
  28. #20878
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    The biggest difference is your actuary material has a specific goal on mind. It's one application.

    Your math courses are an attempt to prepare you to figure out and solve all applications.
  29. #20879
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    The biggest difference is your actuary material has a specific goal on mind. It's one application.

    Your math courses are an attempt to prepare you to figure out and solve all applications.
    That's true and I suspect it's a significant factor in how the teaching methods are justified. I just don't think they work that well.

    I took single variable calculus with a bomb ass teacher. She had an engineer's mind and was a workhorse for achieving the goal of application success. I walked away from those two classes with vast improvement in comprehension of the material. But then I took multivariable calculus with a seriously smart mathematician who believed in mostly just conceptualization and deduction from principle. I didn't do so well in the class and walked away feeling like I learned little.

    If the goal was for me to learn math skills to apply to all situations, the former example did a better job of it even though it focused more on the grind than the wizardry.
  30. #20880
    That's also because single variable calculus is easy to do the things you want to do & multi variable calculus isn't. It's also harder because points you can gloss over and not understand but have little to no impact on single variable calculus can be quite fundamental in understanding what's going on in multi variable calculus.
    Last edited by Savy; 04-10-2016 at 04:43 PM.
  31. #20881
    I should clarify that the important distinction between the two teachers is that one focused on thought processes and mechanics while the other one didn't. The other one taught the class as if he was teaching it to himself. That's probably why his exams look nothing like his lectures or the homework. He is a math wizard and only needs concepts. But the rest of us normies, we need more.
  32. #20882
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I should clarify that the important distinction between the two teachers is that one focused on thought processes and mechanics while the other one didn't. The other one taught the class as if he was teaching it to himself. That's probably why his exams look nothing like his lectures or the homework. He is a math wizard and only needs concepts. But the rest of us normies, we need more.
    I edited my above post before I saw you'd posted this.

    You're too obsessed with the whole people who can do maths/people who can't do maths divide which is strange because you pick up on the fact that people think they are bad at things/stupid when the reality is that isn't the case at all. A lot is just down to effort and wanting to do things.

    Anecdote (and a rare one) but I know someone who went through school getting fairly average grades in maths was probably in set 4/5 for maths at GCSE and bottom set at A-level but whilst he was doing his A-levels he got into maths and science put a tonne of effort in ended up with like 3 (maybe 4) A*s in Maths & 2 (or 3) science, got a first from a top university in Maths* & is in the process of doing his Phd.

    *In which during his first year he averaged a first overall and that included a 0 in a final exam he missed as he slept through.

    Independent learning is a skill in itself. Every student studying a hard conceptual subject goes through all the things you've stated and it's a ball ache.
    Last edited by Savy; 04-10-2016 at 04:51 PM.
  33. #20883
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    That's also because single variable calculus is easy to do the things you want to do & multi variable calculus isn't.
    It's more complex, but that doesn't necessarily make it harder. Things like finding limits of integration in multi uses the same skills as in single; it just requires more elements, which makes it more complex but not necessarily more difficult.

    My struggling in the class was related to other stuff, mainly that if you prepared for his exams through his lectures and the homework, you would be ill-prepared. He basically expected everybody to have a strong comprehension of all the theorems by just pondering them enough.
  34. #20884
    Your point about innovation & regurgitation is true except that what you're being asked to do in exams isn't innovation. If you've put the work in & read around the subject you'll probably have come across the ideas used to solve whatever the problem is but even if you haven't you have the tools and understanding to solve the problem. It's not like it's asking for novel solutions.

    It's usually a case of I know you can do this if a b and c apply but ohh wait here b doesn't apply how does that alter what I'm doing. At which point people regurgitating will be like ohh shit whereas people who have the understanding will be able to make slight alterations & let's not forget that you still (should) get marks for trying the right type of ideas even if you fuck up.

    Let's not forget that no level of maths ability is a replacement for not learning the material.
  35. #20885
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post

    You're too obsessed with the whole people who can do maths/people who can't do maths divide which is strange because you pick up on the fact that people think they are bad at things/stupid when the reality is that isn't the case at all. A lot is just down to effort and wanting to do things.
    I try to not make that distinction. I think of it more like some people being naturally intuitive on some things and others not.

    Independent learning is a skill in itself. Every student studying a hard conceptual subject goes through all the things you've stated and it's a ball ache.
    A reason I'm taking this line is because I have undergone two antipodal studying experiences based on how material is presented. One involves the material being hard yet there being enough reference points in the text and lectures for me to eventually get through it, and the other is just being lost. Straight up, flat out, unable to move forward lost. Unable to reference examples, explanations, or notes to get out of the mess since they're inadequate and missing a bunch. When stuck on a problem, it's important to be to do what teachers always say to do: "go to the example." But when there is no example....
  36. #20886
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    When stuck on a problem, it's important to be to do what teachers always say to do: "go to the example." But when there is no example....
    And when there is no example to give?
  37. #20887
    When are there no examples?
  38. #20888
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    When are there no examples?
    ...
  39. #20889
    TooSavyForYourOwnGood
  40. #20890
    JKDS's Avatar
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    Independent learning is a skill in itself. Every student studying a hard conceptual subject goes through all the things you've stated and it's a ball ache.
    Truth. I experienced this not once in one class, but many times in many different classes and subjects. It was a pain in the ass, but I suspect law school was easier due to having that experience.
  41. #20891
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    lol

    independent learning


    as if anyone else can learn for you
  42. #20892
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    This is borderline "Election Thread", but I gotta say it.

    WTF is up with all of Hillary's "lets look like a bell today" dresses? Screw the woman suit, screw pantsuits, screw skirts, she wants the full on plus sized snuggie to wrap herself up in.

    I dont get it. People say women are more cognizant of their appearance than men, yet we get this.



    THE BANANA.

    I blame non-existent woman's dress codes for the workplace.
  43. #20893
    Hill Jong-un
  44. #20894
    I had a near rage moment today. One that I believe I would have acted upon if I had any inclination towards rage.

    I was walking back to my car in the uni lot and found that an "I have a tiny dick" vehicle was parked right on the line, making me squish myself just to get in my car. For a brief moment, I seriously considered repeatedly smashing the edge of my door into the side of his car and then driving off. Instead I just drove off.
  45. #20895
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    um... Kudos on your altogether mundane level of self-restraint?

    I'm... proud?.. of you... for not being a douche.


    Seriously, though: College is stressful. I doubt you are a perfect parker every time you put your car into a spot. Even if you are, I'm sure there are other aspects of the social contract that you sometimes take personal exceptions on. We all do.

    I doubt you'd even care about this ultimately minor inconvenience in your day if you weren't dealing with some level of stress. It'll always be annoying to deal with that situation, but it really shouldn't incite you to commit criminal acts. At most, and I actually think this is pretty dumb, you could leave a note on their windshield expressing how they inconvenienced you with their parking job.

    As ever, a friendly reminder is more likely to incite change than what amounts to a sucker punch.
  46. #20896
    I didn't do it because I'm not an escalator. I wanted to do it because I like social order and consideration. I've never done something like that to somebody. Only one kind of person parks diagonally on the line to an already positioned car so much that they have no room: people who need to be taught a lesson. Granted a note would probably have been better, but not because it instills a more deterrent incentive in the receiver, but because somebody who would do what he did is somebody who is likely to take getting his just desserts the wrong way.
  47. #20897
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Only one kind of person parks diagonally on the line to an already positioned car so much that they have no room: people who need to be taught a lesson.
    This sentence is easily the single most socially retarded thing I've ever seen you say.
  48. #20898
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    FYP
  49. #20899
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I wanted to do it because I like social order and consideration.
    TIL wufwugy considers vigilantism a considerate way to promote social order.
  50. #20900
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    TIL wufwugy considers vigilantism a considerate way to promote social order.
    Maybe it is.

    Maybe people wouldn't park like a cunt if they knew that there was a high probability of damage to the car as a result.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  51. #20901
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    This sentence is easily the single most socially retarded thing I've ever seen you say.
    Explain.
  52. #20902
    Well it's retarded because you can't park diagonally on a line, only over it. But that's not socially retarded, merely logcial nitpicking.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  53. #20903
    I think I'd spit on his windscreen, right in front of the driver's seat.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  54. #20904
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    TIL wufwugy considers vigilantism a considerate way to promote social order.
    The vast majority of social order is created through cultural interactions. By logical progression of what vigilantism is, it's not useful. This wouldn't have been an example of vigilantism anyways.
  55. #20905
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well it's retarded because you can't park diagonally on a line, only over it. But that's not socially retarded, merely logcial nitpicking.
    You can. You can park diagonally. It can be on a line. This is because parking implies a space. "Diagonally" implies asymmetric parking within the space. "On the line" implies such is on the line.
  56. #20906
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    Would he understand that his car was hit due to parking that way?
  57. #20907
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Would he understand that his car was hit due to parking that way?
    Probably not. People who box somebody in by parking like an asshat are typically not thoughtful enough to come to that conclusion.
  58. #20908
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You can. You can park diagonally. It can be on a line. This is because parking implies a space. "Diagonally" implies asymmetric parking within the space. "On the line" implies such is on the line.
    Whatever.

    Why didn't you spit on his windscreen?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  59. #20909
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Probably not. People who box somebody in by parking like an asshat are typically not thoughtful enough to come to that conclusion.
    This is why your "teach him a lesson" aspie remark is so retarded.
  60. #20910
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    This is why your "teach him a lesson" aspie remark is so retarded.
    I claimed that he needed to be taught a lesson, not that the proposed method would have worked. I even said as much in the next sentence.
  61. #20911
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I claimed that he needed to be taught a lesson, not that the proposed method would have worked. I even said as much in the next sentence.
    Ladies and gentlemen, the smartest person in the history of the planet.
  62. #20912
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    He's very careful with his language, he says he's like the smartest person in the history of the planet.

    And he'd be right, because the smartest person in the history of the planet is obviously male, therefore there is at least one simliarity between the spithotp and wuf, making his statement technically correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  63. #20913
    JKDS's Avatar
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    Which is the best kind of correct
  64. #20914
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    If you think I was being serious, I now know why people here think I'm a jackass.
  65. #20915
    Translation: when wuf says he's more brillianter than all the things, he means he's okay. He's decent. He's not bad. He's not dumber than a bag of sticks. Well, not a freshly bundled bag of sticks -- those are legit -- but an old musty bag of sticks. He beats the piss out of that musty bag. It's no competition. Musty bag never saw it coming.
  66. #20916
    JKDS's Avatar
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    You beat stick?

    Stick break in half.

    Then you have two stick.

    Stick win everytime.
  67. #20917
    i read that in a russian accent. would read again.
  68. #20918
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    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2597839

    Yay or nay?

    For reference, many states have whats called "Implied Consent" laws. Essentially, when you get your driver's license...you agree to submit to breath or blood tests if you are suspected of a DUI. If you refuse, the license is automatically revoked.

    This would be a similar idea; provide your phone so that they can determine if you were texting while driving, and if you refuse, license is revoked.

    ------

    I'm against it. I'm not sure we can know exactly what time a car accident occurred (not without expensively looking at a newer car's computer that might record that info), so the information wouldnt be too useful. BAC's are great b/c you just need a window, not an exact time. I'm not sure the rationale for doing this really applies either. While distracted driving is a huge cause of accidents, texting is often just a momentary incident of dangerous driving...meanwhile DUI is an entire trip's worth of dangerous driving. I also dont like giving my phone to people...though the article mentions that it would be strictly for a very limited purpose.
  69. #20919
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    If you think I was being serious, I now know why people here think I'm a jackass.
    Somehow, as much as you mean this, I still doubt the conclusion.

    The way you throw the word "intuit" around is adorable.
  70. #20920
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I care about the idea of theft as it hugs to reality.

    To call someone a thief is to beesech a greater power to "please, go catch that theif!"


    "And punish him!"


    What happens when that thief is the greatest power around?

    You can call him a thief, but whom are you beseeching to go catch and punish him?
    Sup, wufwugy?
  71. #20921
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Ultimately yay. A driver's license is a privilege that you have to pass multiple tests to get, and many caveats that you have to perform in order to maintain that privilege. From obeying traffic and parking laws to maintaining the safety of the vehicle to keeping insurance to maintaining your mental state while operating the vehicle.

    If texting while driving is illegal, then whether or not there was an accident, the police should always have the right to determine if you've been texting while driving. How is up to them, but to simply borrow your phone for the specific purpose of assessing this fact sounds pretty ideal, actually.

    The difference is that if you refuse a BAC test, then they can arrest you and take your license, but they can't force you to blow into a tube. They can and will take your phone, though... so refusing to let them see it is kind of a moot point if they're just going to arrest you anyway.

    You're right that the problem of linking the time of text to the time of accident is a challenge.

    ***
    I don't own a cell phone.


    EDIT: Interesting 5th Amendment implications if you refuse to give them your phone, though.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 04-12-2016 at 09:54 PM.
  72. #20922
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    I'm against it. I'm not sure we can know exactly what time a car accident occurred (not without expensively looking at a newer car's computer that might record that info), so the information wouldnt be too useful. BAC's are great b/c you just need a window, not an exact time. I'm not sure the rationale for doing this really applies either. While distracted driving is a huge cause of accidents, texting is often just a momentary incident of dangerous driving...meanwhile DUI is an entire trip's worth of dangerous driving. I also dont like giving my phone to people...though the article mentions that it would be strictly for a very limited purpose.
    I've seen people obviously on their phone during rush hour on the highway. And not just, "I'll check one thing and put it away" -- I'm talking about spending the entire trip with their focus down in their lap instead of on the road. It really irritates me when I see someone doing that in my rearview mirror, because I don't want to be rear-ended because some bimbo wants to see what her friends posted on Facebook in the last hour.

    I'm for it, if it can be accurate and reliable. What would really be cool is if the phone's own motion sensors could detect the collision and include that information to the cops -- that would solve the timestamp issue.
  73. #20923
    What would be even more awesome -- fully self-driving cars become a reality and you can use your phone all you want, because you're not driving. Elon Musk claims that Tesla will have that capability in two years.
  74. #20924
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    What would be even more awesome -- fully self-driving cars become a reality and you can use your phone all you want, because you're not driving. Elon Musk claims that Tesla will have that capability in two years.
    Fully self-driving cars are already a thing.

    AFAIK, they've been a thing for years now. They're not available to the public yet, and I'm not sure why.

    I was once told that it's an insurance nightmare. If a self-driven vehicle is in an accident, then who's liable? The person who owns the car and had nothing to do with it's operation? The company who made the car? The company who wrote the driving software? The company that made the faulty sensor which failed and caused the software to have a blind spot?

    I heard this over a decade ago, but I suppose that if you give insurance agencies 10 years, they'll figure out what to charge you for your insurance. So I don't know if that's the whole truth.
  75. #20925
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    I'm for it, if it can be accurate and reliable. What would really be cool is if the phone's own motion sensors could detect the collision and include that information to the cops -- that would solve the timestamp issue.
    I'm still a bit unsure if this would count as being forced to provide evidence of your own guilt in a crime.

    Moreso, it's a crime that you are not yet officially accused of. Until the officer has issued you a ticket / summons, you are not accused, right? The officer wants to examine your phone to find evidence that you committed a crime, so he's not even asserting that his best judgement says you were breaking the law, yet, right?

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