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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #16951
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    There are a lot of interpretations of the same data set, a lot of ways to connect the dots. I like to start with 'I don't know' and try to latch onto the few torch-bearing bits I can find.

    When I see that 1 day old boys prefer mechanical system, and 10000 day old boys tend to be technical over empathetic in their career and the opposite is true of women, I build from there.

    1 day old helps block out the culture and cut down on the complexity loads.
    That is compelling evidence for sure

    It should be kept in mind that this sort of biological determinism almost never holds up in complex environments. It's more of a genetic suggestion than anything.
  2. #16952
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Angry's a bad word for it. I just find it a bit ridiculous that even the "male/female" checkbox has become controversial in today's social environment.
    I've never seen a form go into such detail tbh, care to give a real example? I'm curious.

    Worst thing I have to deal with when filling stuff in is whether to put England or UK on things. Doesn't really work when one is a subset of the other but people would make a fuss if one wasn't there.
  3. #16953
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Why are you counting rilla's 1-day old study for nothing?
    It's a good one. I'm more pointing out that contemporary biologists in behavioral fields are very cautious of biological determinism
  4. #16954
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I didn't glaze over it. I addressed it specifically. I said that my saying "100%" is technically wrong, and then I explained the logic for why it can still be contextually appropriate, which is that if nurture is the deciding factor

    It's my bad for saying "100%" because it is confusing.
    Seriously, my bad, I must have missed that post some how. This discussion has moved pretty fast. Sorry about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I mean, okay, I'm a guy, and I am much worse at math on an inherent level than several women I know. If it is true that the male gender is better at math than the female gender, then it strongly suggests that my situation is not possible or at least is unlikely.
    If we were discussion evolution vs creationism, you would have just said, "My daddy's daddy wadn't no monkey!"


    I feel like you fail to see that you have taken the much harder position in saying that biology plays no role, or that any role it does play is washed away by nurture. If biology only plays a 1% role, that is not only enough to tip the scales and nudge people one way, but more importantly, given time, we could expect it to steer culture to reinforce its small influence.
  5. #16955
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post

    I feel like you fail to see that you have taken the much harder position in saying that biology plays no role, or that any role it does play is washed away by nurture. If biology only plays a 1% role, that is not only enough to tip the scales and nudge people one way, but more importantly, given time, we could expect it to steer culture to reinforce its small influence.
    I'll admit that we don't actually know, and that we likely will never know.

    The two main points for my stance are as such: (1) for behavioral issues, there aren't any biological markers we can point to and say "he is like that because he's a guy" or "she is like that because she's a girl". However, there are many cultural factors we can use to explain those differences. (2) The arc of history continually trends towards us being surprised that our prejudices about innate differences between groups of people are wrong. It's not unique to gender. We used to think black people are naturally dumber than whites and we currently think Asians are naturally better at math. Both of which are not true.
  6. #16956
    Right, and the counter is that while the brain has no physical differences across races, across genders it very much does. To assume that a brain with a significantly different structure would not excel in some areas and fall short in other areas... I mean, why would we disregard this?

    Should we let it pigeon hole people due to their gender? No. But we shouldn't force a square peg in a round hole just to be politically correct.
  7. #16957
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #16958
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Right, and the counter is that while the brain has no physical differences across races, across genders it very much does. To assume that a brain with a significantly different structure would not excel in some areas and fall short in other areas... I mean, why would we disregard this?

    Should we let it pigeon hole people due to their gender? No. But we shouldn't force a square peg in a round hole just to be politically correct.
    I think the probability that morphological differences in the brain are a product of culture -- like the claims in the article Imsavy posted -- is much higher than otherwise. The plasticity of the brain is kinda off the charts. Some of the known differences have no known effects, like size and matter type. Other differences in function that seem apparent -- like spatial proficiency -- are mostly postulated to be a result of nurture e.g. boys grow up playing sports.
  9. #16959
    Male and female fetus' are known to have physical differences in brain structure, and this is just what we can see from an ultrasound.

    http://www.webmd.com/balance/feature...-brains-differ
  10. #16960
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I think the probability that morphological differences in the brain are a product of culture -- like the claims in the article Imsavy posted -- is much higher than otherwise. The plasticity of the brain is kinda off the charts. Some of the known differences have no known effects, like size and matter type. Other differences in function that seem apparent -- like spatial proficiency -- are mostly postulated to be a result of nurture e.g. boys grow up playing sports.
    Matter type has plenty of known differences. I can't figure out why you're being a retard on this.

    Also:

  11. #16961
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Right, and the counter is that while the brain has no physical differences across races, across genders it very much does. To assume that a brain with a significantly different structure would not excel in some areas and fall short in other areas... I mean, why would we disregard this?

    Should we let it pigeon hole people due to their gender? No. But we shouldn't force a square peg in a round hole just to be politically correct.
    Glad to see you're coming around.
  12. #16962
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Matter type has plenty of known differences. I can't figure out why you're being a retard on this.
    Known differences but no known effects on the minds of the sexes.

    I'm being such a "retard" on this because I'm backing up contemporary consensus on biology. The field is easily the most complex in existence, and things that appear to most people to be related -- like morphology of the brains of the sexes equaling to personality differences -- is not something biologists can extrapolate. Behavior and psychology are only tangentially related to some of the more robust biological fields. It is where if a study is done on diabetics, it has very little to no extrapolation elements onto non-diabetics. As interesting as something like men and women having different brains in some ways is, we absolutely cannot say its causative of behavior differences.

    What we know today is that culture is likely to override any genetic disposition towards certain behaviors. There is yet to be demonstrated any empirical evidence that somebody's personality is the way it is because of sex. Yet we are overwhelmed with evidence that environment actively molds the way people are.


    Take Rilla's study for an example of why biologists cannot extrapolate that far. If male babies look at mechanical objects more and female babes look at faces more, we have no idea what that means. We don't know if that tendency translates to other ages or if it completely disappears at some point. We don't know if that tendency is easily neutralized by standard variability in nurture. We don't even know if looking at mechanics instead of faces actually means that one is better at understanding mechanics.

    But what we do know is that when it comes to personalities, genetics is pretty much just a suggestion and environment is king.
  13. #16963
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    But what we do know is that when it comes to personalities, genetics is pretty much just a suggestion and environment is king.
    we know this? Where are your sources? Do you just make things up?
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  14. #16964
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    we know this? Where are your sources? Do you just make things up?
    I don't have links because it's just forgotten sources I've come across over the last several years.

    Many psychologists have believed that for a long period of time, and recently geneticists and neuroscientists have started coming around on it.
  15. #16965
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    It's worth the watch considering the convo
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  16. #16966
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    What we know today is that culture is likely to override any genetic disposition towards certain behaviors.
    Then your research is lacking, but with the way you are about things, I have no doubt that you'll figure it out.

    Edit: A good place to start is the different mating strategies than men and women have as a result of their biology.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 03-02-2015 at 07:11 PM.
  17. #16967
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    Hey look, a source that goes against Wuf's lack of.
  18. #16968
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Then your research is lacking, but with the way you are about things, I have no doubt that you'll figure it out.

    Edit: A good place to start is the different mating strategies than men and women have as a result of their biology.
    I've stated several times that sexual preferences are among the most genetic dispositions probable. Of course, I'm unsure how much so since they too appear to be heavily cultural. There are some batty mating strategies in some cultures. I'd have to know more about them to give an assessment of how much is cultural, but some of them are so wacky that they involve knees being the most seductive part of the body, pederasty as the core, or polyandry.

    What are some personality traits that are genetically female?
  19. #16969
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I've stated several times that sexual preferences are among the most genetic dispositions probable. Of course, I'm unsure how much so since they too appear to be heavily cultural. There are some batty mating strategies in some cultures. I'd have to know more about them to give an assessment of how much is cultural, but some of them are so wacky that they involve knees being the most seductive part of the body, pederasty as the core, or polyandry.

    What are some personality traits that are genetically female?
    Hypergamy in women (compared to polygamy in men).

    Also, sexual preferences != sexual strategies. Moreover, you'll find plenty of homosexual and inter-species sex in other species.
  20. #16970
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Hey look, a source that goes against Wuf's lack of.
    Which one? Rilla's? It doesn't. It's pretty great too. Contemporary psychology tends to view his situation as somebody who has a predisposition that is modified by environment. Additionally, like in the link Imsavy posted, we don't actually know if that predisposition is learned. On the genetic level (which that video isn't about), it gets even screwier. Geneticists will be the first to say that genes are not deterministic and that they're weirder than anybody thinks.

    Brain scans do not solve the chicken or egg dilemma. Neuroplasticity is crazy stuff. Brain structure changes all the time. People who get paralyzed lose the structure that allows them to walk. People who learn the piano gain structure that knows how to play piano.
  21. #16971
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Hypergamy in women (compared to polygamy in men).

    Also, sexual preferences != sexual strategies. Moreover, you'll find plenty of homosexual and inter-species sex in other species.
    I'll hit on one line from the wiki

    Evolutionary psychologists contend this is an inherent sex difference arising out of sexual selection, with men driven to seek women who will give birth to healthy babies and women driven to seek men who will be able to provide the necessary resources for the family's survival.
    First off, evolutionary determinism is taboo. Biologists shy from it because it's not scientific, but it is still a useful tool to use in pursuit of scientific research. It's like how postulating where to find an evolutionary link in the fossil record isn't scientific data but a tool that gets used to find the data.

    Second, baked into the quoted is environmental drivers. It's why, as there is less pressure on females to marry resources, females marry resources less. Hypergamy is a trait found disproportionately in females over males, for sure, but that doesn't mean it's genetically female. Hell, some theory about pre-civilization humans is that both polygamy and hypergamy were not normally practiced. IIRC most of the backing for this has been found in jungle tribes unaffiliated with civilization.

    It should be noted that we're not even sure if marriage is something pre-agriculture humans did. There is reason to believe that humans "naturally" have relationships more like bonobos (group bondings instead of pair bondings).
  22. #16972
    BooG690's Avatar
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    Would you guys ever date a stripper?
  23. #16973
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    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Would you guys ever date a stripper?
    Yes, but not with the intention of settling down. Like, itd be just a fun thing.
  24. #16974
    I'd date JKDS just for fun. Just one date. And no touching.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  25. #16975
    I'd date you too boog, but you can touch me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #16976
    it is a good idea to spend time with people who make your life better.
  27. #16977
    i am using way too many periods these days. frickin boog.
  28. #16978
    Grunching here, but wuf, you seem to be pressing this argument that because of the difficulty of running an experiment on the causality of biology on behavior that the easier to study causality is the only causality. I was half joking about calling your argument tantamount to "my granddaddy wasn't no stinkin ape!", but I think you are very close to making the "missing link" argument.

    Even so you don't even stick to your guns as you can continually be seen saying that whatever causality biology does affect on behavior, experience trumps it. Do you not realize that you are forfeiting here? If there is causality from biology, whether it can be overridden by experience or not, it will show in aggregate since all things being equal, more of gender A will tend to behave one way. And that's not even taking into account that once a gender, in aggregate, behaves one way, culture is likely to reinforce the behavior.
  29. #16979
    rong's Avatar
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    I've dated a stripper. She also did page 3. Suck it bitches!
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  30. #16980
    rong's Avatar
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    Dated? Well we had a couple of drinks on two occasions.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  31. #16981
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    And she wasn't exactly hot
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  32. #16982
    Who the fuck puts not hot women on page 3?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #16983
    Would you guys ever marry a hooker?
  34. #16984
    rong's Avatar
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    It wasn't the sun page 3, it was the sport. Perhaps a slight exaggeration on my behalf.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  35. #16985
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    Would you guys ever marry a hooker?
    Only if she's ridiculously rich.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  36. #16986
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    Would you rather marry a porn star or a hooker? I mean the only difference is how many people saw it. And possibly average dick size experienced.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  37. #16987
    BooG690's Avatar
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    I imagine porn stars are better about having safe sex. Porn star.
  38. #16988
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    It wasn't the sun page 3, it was the sport. Perhaps a slight exaggeration on my behalf.
    Yeah I don't think they're called "page 3" girls in the sport, just page girls.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #16989
    I'd date a hooker, but I wouldn't have sex with her unless she quit. My idea of safe sex is her taking the pill, condoms are fucking horrible. Plus, it's a matter of loyalty. I realise a hooker is not usually enjoying sex with her clients, but that's besides the point. I'm not overly jealous, but I'd have a serious problem with other men putting their dicks into my gf's vagina. So, a hooker would need to demonstrate her love for me by finding alternative employment before a serious relationship can begin.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #16990
    Porn stars are hookers with a more glamourous job title.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  41. #16991
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Stripper? no

    Porn star v hooker? Porn star, especially if she's part of a regulated industry, she probably invest more in keeping herself healthy.

    Porn star, then? no
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  42. #16992
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I felt pretty whore-like working in a carpentry shop. The work was physical, and the management bent us over at every opportunity.

    Anyone wanna buy me dinner?
  43. #16993
    rong's Avatar
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    A cheap holiday in other people's misery. - Will Self on the news. I look that.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  44. #16994
    A cheeky lift? Or a struggle for life?

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #16995
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    @ong: That's awesome!

    ***
    I read two phrases in the past 30 minutes that lead me to believe that I'm a racist...
    Russian environmentalist
    Chinese comedian


    I never pieced those words together before and my brain literally stopped and went, "what, now?" both times.


    I'm a bad person, clearly.
  46. #16996
    Not so awesome when you realise the weasel is trying to kill the woodpecker. Well actually it's still awesome, but brutal.

    The woodpecker escaped.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  47. #16997
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    @ong: That's awesome!

    ***
    I read two phrases in the past 30 minutes that lead me to believe that I'm a racist...
    Russian environmentalist
    Chinese comedian


    I never pieced those words together before and my brain literally stopped and went, "what, now?" both times.


    I'm a bad person, clearly.
    I don't think you can be racist towards the Russians. Xenophobic, yes, but not racist. They mostly white Caucasian.

    I can't help your conscience when it comes to the Chinese though, other than to say that it's hard to be racist towards a superior race of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #16998
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    I've dated a stripper. She also did page 3. Suck it bitches!
    I've read the rest of your posts but still needs to be said.

    pics of gtfo
  49. #16999
    BooG690's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think you can be racist towards the Russians. Xenophobic, yes, but not racist. They mostly white Caucasian.
    Somebody explain to me this "you can't be racist against Whites" ideology. I never understood it and this is not the first time I've heard it.
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  50. #17000
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Somebody explain to me this "you can't be racist against Whites" ideology. I never understood it and this is not the first time I've heard it.
    It's a semantical thing. What they mean is that racism implies systemic oppression.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...Reverse-Racism

    Prejudice is an irrational feeling of dislike for a person or group of persons, usually based on stereotype. Virtually everyone feels some sort of prejudice, whether it's for an ethnic group, or for a religious group, or for a type of person like blondes or fat people or tall people. The important thing is they just don't like them -- in short, prejudice is a feeling, a belief. You can be prejudiced, but still be a fair person if you're careful not to act on your irrational dislike.

    Discrimination takes place the moment a person acts on prejudice. This describes those moments when one individual decides not to give another individual a job because of, say, their race or their religious orientation. Or even because of their looks (there's a lot of hiring discrimination against "unattractive" women, for example). You can discriminate, individually, against any person or group, if you're in a position of power over the person you want to discriminate against. White people can discriminate against black people, and black people can discriminate against white people if, for example, one is the interviewer and the other is the person being interviewed.

    Racism, however, describes patterns of discrimination that are institutionalized as "normal" throughout an entire culture. It's based on an ideological belief that one "race" is somehow better than another "race". It's not one person discriminating at this point, but a whole population operating in a social structure that actually makes it difficult for a person not to discriminate.
    The bolds are mine, as I think they're the most salient.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 03-03-2015 at 01:33 PM.
    Free your mind and your ass will follow.
  51. #17001
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    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Somebody explain to me this "you can't be racist against Whites" ideology. I never understood it and this is not the first time I've heard it.
    He's right. I'm not racist, because I'm not judging based on race, but nationality.
    It's borderline with Chinese, because the word can refer to the race or the nationality.

    I'd normally use the word bigot.

    I mean, one can clearly be racist against whites, I just wasn't being so in that argument.

    My job's site is down so I have a minute, but not enough to explain the African American perspective on the phrase, "I can't be racist, I'm black." Personally, I have only a white guy's perspective on conversations I've had on the subject with black people, but I have that.

    Mostly it's about the notion that pushing back against a slight is not the same as the slight. The idea they've expressed to me is that they're not being racist, they're reacting to racism. I think it's a poor definition of racism, but there it is.
  52. #17002
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Somebody explain to me this "you can't be racist against Whites" ideology. I never understood it and this is not the first time I've heard it.
    He wasn't distinguishing based on race he was doing so based upon nationality.
  53. #17003
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    Ahhh, I understand now.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    My job's site is down so I have a minute, but not enough to explain the African American perspective on the phrase, "I can't be racist, I'm black." Personally, I have only a white guy's perspective on conversations I've had on the subject with black people, but I have that.

    Mostly it's about the notion that pushing back against a slight is not the same as the slight. The idea they've expressed to me is that they're not being racist, they're reacting to racism. I think it's a poor definition of racism, but there it is.
    I was referencing this argument. I hear it often and I hate it.
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  54. #17004
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubreymcfate View Post
    Stuff.
    This way of thinking about racism drives me nuts. I don't understand where the idea that the discrimination must be "normal throughout an entire culture" came from. Whatever happened to the simple definition of racism where it's simply believing that members of a race are inferior or superior to other races?
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  55. #17005
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Somebody explain to me this "you can't be racist against Whites" ideology. I never understood it and this is not the first time I've heard it.
    Russians are not a race, they are a population.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  56. #17006
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Russians are not a race, they are a population.
    Thanks. I understand the distinction now.
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  57. #17007
    I really should refresh the page before posting when I leave my browser open while I make tea, y'know, in case someone else has posted what I was about to post and the conversation has moved forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  58. #17008
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    This way of thinking about racism drives me nuts. I don't understand where the idea that the discrimination must be "normal throughout an entire culture" came from. Whatever happened to the simple definition of racism where it's simply believing that members of a race are inferior or superior to other races?
    Well, again, it's a semantics thing. You can argue about the wording but the reason behind the distinction is still there. Racism carries a contextual and historical weight to it that is important to people.
    Free your mind and your ass will follow.
  59. #17009
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    It's borderline with Chinese, because the word can refer to the race or the nationality.
    Wait, since when is Chinese a race?
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  60. #17010
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubreymcfate View Post
    Well, again, it's a semantics thing. You can argue about the wording but the reason behind the distinction is still there. Racism carries a contextual and historical weight to it that is important to people.
    I understand but this distinction is making matters worse. It's rationalizing racism as a reasonable answer to racism.
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  61. #17011
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    I understand but this distinction is making matters worse. It's rationalizing racism as a reasonable answer to racism.
    How is the distinction itself rationalizing any form of discriminatory behavior?

    I think it's more about a false equivalency. If you read that article, it's addressing the right wing's claims of "reverse racism."

    Shitty people can use anything to rationalize shitty behavior, but the distinction itself doesn't have any such motive, I don't think.
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  62. #17012
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    Whatever happened to the simple definition of racism where it's simply believing that members of a race are inferior or superior to other races?
    Well if this remained the definition of racism, then it would be very difficult to call someone racist for using derogatory terms based on race, so long as one does not imply superiority. If a black man says hello to me, can I respond with "sup negroid" and not be a racist twat? No I can't, it is indeed racist, but not according to the idea that racism is belief in superiority.
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  63. #17013
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'd date JKDS just for fun. Just one date. And no touching.
    Well, we'd have to see where the night takes us. But I have a feeling I'm out of your league :P
  64. #17014
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubreymcfate View Post
    How is the distinction itself rationalizing any form of discriminatory behavior?

    I think it's more about a false equivalency. If you read that article, it's addressing the right wing's claims of "reverse racism."

    Shitty people can use anything to rationalize shitty behavior, but the distinction itself doesn't have any such motive, I don't think.
    I don't think racism and discriminatory behavior are one in the same. Discriminatory behavior can STEM from racism but the discrimination part is not necessary for racism to have taken place. Racism is a thought or idea, not a behavior.

    MMM gave an example of the idea: "I can't be racist, I'm black." A lot of this was prevalent after the Ferguson and Eric Garner stuff. A really good friend of mine who I respect greatly went down that road. "I fucking hate white people," was a quote out of her mouth. Of course, this is all anecdotal but it's things like this that drives me nuts. It only makes racial divides worse when people believe that, because there is little (read: no) discrimination against whites, saying shit like that is fine.

    Edit: Yeah, things were tense at that point. She was really angry about how things went down. I'm giving her a pass for saying that out of passion. Still, not cool to think malicious, racist thangs.
    Last edited by BooG690; 03-03-2015 at 02:19 PM.
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  65. #17015
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well if this remained the definition of racism, then it would be very difficult to call someone racist for using derogatory terms based on race, so long as one does not imply superiority. If a black man says hello to me, can I respond with "sup negroid" and not be a racist twat? No I can't, it is indeed racist, but not according to the idea that racism is belief in superiority.
    Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. I just kind of copied and pasted Google's definition of racism.
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  66. #17016
    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    I don't think racism and discriminatory behavior are one in the same. Discriminatory behavior can STEM from racism but the discrimination part is not necessary for racism to have taken place. Racism is a thought or idea, not a behavior.

    MMM gave an example of the idea: "I can't be racist, I'm black." A lot of this was prevalent after the Ferguson and Eric Garner stuff. A really good friend of mine who I respect greatly went down that road. "I fucking hate white people," was a quote out of her mouth. Of course, this is all anecdotal but it's things like this that drives me nuts. It only makes racial divides worse when people believe that, because there is little (read: no) discrimination against whites, saying shit like that is fine.

    Edit: Yeah, things were tense at that point. She was really angry about how things went down. I'm giving her a pass for saying that out of passion. Still, not cool to think malicious, racist thangs.
    Reactionary statements like that don't really bother me either. I don't even see it as malicious. It stems from extreme pain and frustration.

    edit: but I agree, there are people who will try to defend that kind of rhetoric across the board, and I don't think that's cool either. And then there are people who attack it by calling it "reverse racism." I think that's the wrong way to go about criticizing it. No matter how "racist" a black person is towards a white person, you, as a white person, can't act as though you have the same bone to pick about it. It's just not the same. Nonetheless, can you criticize it on the grounds of being detrimental to any real progress? Sure. It's when you react as though you are now equally victimized by racism that the conversation breaks down.

    my you's are general, btw.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 03-03-2015 at 02:28 PM.
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  67. #17017
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubreymcfate View Post
    Reactionary statements like that don't really bother me either. I don't even see it as malicious. It stems from extreme pain and frustration.

    edit: but I agree, there are people who will try to defend that kind of rhetoric across the board, and I don't think that's cool either. And then there are people who attack it by calling it "reverse racism." I think that's the wrong way to go about criticizing it. No matter how "racist" a black person is towards a white person, you, as a white person, can't act as though you have the same bone to pick about it. It's just not the same. Nonetheless, can you criticize it on the grounds of being detrimental to any real progress? Sure. It's when you react as though you are now equally victimized by racism that the conversation breaks down.

    my you's are general, btw.
    Why's that?

    If you walk back far enough in anyone's history, shit gets ugly. Unless you were born a crowned prince or Rothschild, anyone could play the game of historic re/oppression.
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  68. #17018
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    Racism to me is stereotyping works. If I had to guess which out of some group of people was most likely to mug me, my brain already knows the answer.

    How that percolates into institution oppression or whatever else is required for racism is the interesting part. Griping about who gets to bitch and moan about 'the system' is a waste.
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  69. #17019
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    Guy hates me because I'm white, I'm just supposed to smile and thank him and I do so. This triggers an internal conflict and discomfort in me. Now I'm being oppressed by him in a way he could never understand. His race gives him the power to step all over me and I must take it. This is oppression of the highest order which now opens me to being racist at him - aw shit son.
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  70. #17020
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Racism to me is stereotyping works. If I had to guess which out of some group of people was most likely to mug me, my brain already knows the answer.
    I don't even think that's racism. There's a large, tough group of African-American and Guyanese people in Jamaica, Queens. Most follow the whole "thug life" bullshit. Yup, I pre-judge them all to hell and actually dodged a glass bottle being swung at me due to my excellent judgment skills. They HAPPEN to be Guyanese and African-American, but that isn't much of what caused me to judge them prior to knowing who they really were.
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  71. #17021
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    I have a hard time believing level headed people actually buy into the internet rhetoric around racism. If you believe it's because you want to, not because it makes a tremendous amount of sense.
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  72. #17022
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I have a hard time believing level headed people actually buy into the internet rhetoric around racism. If you believe it's because you want to, not because it makes a tremendous amount of sense.
    It's like white power people and how they sense the threat of the colored man to the white race. The black man knows the oppression of The Man. Women feel the Patriarchy.

    I dunno what I'm saying... You find a way to feel strong through the intended oppression you want to believe is real.
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  73. #17023
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    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    I don't even think that's racism. There's a large, tough group of African-American and Guyanese people in Jamaica, Queens. Most follow the whole "thug life" bullshit. Yup, I pre-judge them all to hell and actually dodged a glass bottle being swung at me due to my excellent judgment skills. They HAPPEN to be Guyanese and African-American, but that isn't much of what caused me to judge them prior to knowing who they really were.
    Yeah, to me that's the mechanism that bores out racism. White guy reads a black guys name on a resume and automatically rates it lower than the same resume with a white guys name ... all the way up to some white guy being furious with blacks because he thinks they make his life worse.
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  74. #17024
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I have a hard time believing level headed people actually buy into the internet rhetoric around racism. If you believe it's because you want to, not because it makes a tremendous amount of sense.
    If you're thinking of Reddit in this case, oh boy, they're all butterflies and rainbows when it comes to race relations. As beautiful as it being as simple as looking to the black & white cookie, it's unfortunately not the case.
    That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
  75. #17025
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    Quote Originally Posted by BooG690 View Post
    If you're thinking of Reddit in this case, oh boy, they're all butterflies and rainbows when it comes to race relations. As beautiful as it being as simple as looking to the black & white cookie, it's unfortunately not the case.
    I was more on about people who believe that racism = power + prejudice or "punching up" or whatever way they try to rank different shades of racism as bad or good.

    I prefer the "I see it, I'd like to understand it and avoid it in myself" approach
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