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Three 3b hands 1 villain.

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  1. #1

    Default Three 3b hands 1 villain.

    Just getting back to playing, first time posting in years.

    Hand 1: Villain seemed to be standard TAG with large 3 bet range who was not crazy aggressive (62% c bet 1.95AF).

    I think calling flop is fine as his 3 betting range is probably closer to 15% of hands in this spot.

    In retrospect I think betting turn is bad because its unlikely that small pairs are part of that 15% and we are only folding out worse. Once he calls I am really confused about what his range can be. I expect qq+ as well as any draws to usually barrel this turn so once he calls it looks like AK or TT maybe? Will he make this call with 67s or something? Idk.
    River seems like bad spew now since I am so unsure of what his range looks like.



    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4


    BB: 225.5 BB (VPIP: 21.23, PFR: 17.11, 3Bet Preflop: 11.80, Hands: 469)
    UTG: 119.5 BB (VPIP: 25.86, PFR: 18.97, 3Bet Preflop: 2.44, Hands: 119)
    MP: 92 BB (VPIP: 25.35, PFR: 18.31, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 72)
    CO: 159.5 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 20.83, 3Bet Preflop: 10.34, Hands: 74)
    Hero (BTN): 152 BB
    SB: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 56.72, PFR: 28.36, 3Bet Preflop: 19.23, Hands: 69)


    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB


    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A


    fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, SB calls 1.5 BB, BB raises to 8 BB, Hero calls 6 BB, fold


    Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) 6 J 4
    BB bets 13 BB, Hero calls 13 BB


    Turn: (44 BB, 2 players) J
    BB checks, Hero bets 28 BB, BB calls 28 BB


    River: (100 BB, 2 players) 3
    BB checks, Hero bets 75 BB, BB calls 75 BB


    Hand 2: Spewtastic. Villain showed AA in hand 1 which led me to this terrible hand.

    In retrospect i think preflop/flop are fine and turn/river are atrocious calls.

    My main question is how should we play our TT/JJ here? How much should villain showing up with AA in previous spot affect our impression of his range? Made me feel like he was more skewed towards bluffs here since he was capable of not barreling JJ+. Regardless i definitely understand how bad my call was here.

    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4


    BB: 331.5 BB (VPIP: 20.48, PFR: 16.23, 3Bet Preflop: 11.29, Hands: 551)
    UTG: 116.5 BB (VPIP: 26.85, PFR: 17.59, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 110)
    CO: 151 BB (VPIP: 26.43, PFR: 19.29, 3Bet Preflop: 7.55, Hands: 143)
    Hero (BTN): 115 BB
    SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 38.71, PFR: 25.81, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 124)


    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB


    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J A


    fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, BB raises to 5.5 BB, Hero calls 3.5 BB


    Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) 2 9 5
    BB bets 8 BB, Hero calls 8 BB


    Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 9
    BB bets 17.5 BB, Hero calls 17.5 BB


    River: (62.5 BB, 2 players) 2
    BB bets 39.5 BB, Hero calls 39.5 BB



    Hand 3: Same guy, 68% F23B so definitely continuing with worse.

    Decided to check back flop because it could definitely connect with much of his range, he is probably never donking here, and we have some showdown value.

    After he checks turn seems like he usually has some showdown value, but rarely has a 9 or J. Turn bet is an attempt to fold out his 22-66. In retrospect maybe a waste of our showdown value?

    After river K comes seems any 7x in his range might let go as well as any stubborn pairs or 88.

    Not sure if c betting flop would be better or if we should be checking turn/river.


    Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4


    SB: 105 BB (VPIP: 21.76, PFR: 16.72, 3Bet Preflop: 12.07, Hands: 689)
    Hero (BB): 140 BB
    UTG: 134.5 BB (VPIP: 24.17, PFR: 17.82, 3Bet Preflop: 8.80, Hands: 339)
    MP: 189 BB (VPIP: 31.95, PFR: 26.91, 3Bet Preflop: 16.19, Hands: 476)
    CO: 128.5 BB (VPIP: 32.69, PFR: 20.77, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 267)
    BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.19, PFR: 11.39, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 82)


    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB


    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A


    fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB


    Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) 7 J 9
    SB checks, Hero checks


    Turn: (18 BB, 2 players) 9
    SB checks, Hero bets 14 BB, SB calls 14 BB


    River: (46 BB, 2 players) K
    SB checks, Hero bets 31 BB, SB calls 31 BB



    Thanks in advance for the feedback. Feels good to be back at it.
  2. #2
    Hand 1: I guess we're defending about 20% after opening 40% on the button. Probably flatting about 12% and 4betting the other 8%. If so:

    Flop - I doubt you need to defend wider than all Jx, 6x, 44 sets, 66 sets, spade draws, 87s, AdXd, AsX, 77-TT. I prefer AQ float if you have a spade in your holding.

    Turn/River: I don't hate the barrel off, but just be aware people can't fold big pairs no matter how clearly you're repping trips (and it seems clear he has a value hand on the turn). You can comfortably barrel off all trips and boats on this run out, plus some busted nut flush draws with blockers and few other combos if you want some bluffs, but I prefer to under bluff at the micros.

    Hand 2: weird line for villain if he's taking it for value given H1. That said, he probably just now assumes you're not folding and on tilt and going to call him down. I think turn is where you should give this one up, but I'm guilty of calling down in these spots too and being shown a value hand. At best you're chopping on the river, so not achieving much by calling.

    Hand 3: No need to bluff turn and you're repping nothing after checking flop back (which maybe makes this a reasonable value line). River seems like a mandatory bluff when he likely has some showdown value.
  3. #3
    Hand 1 Just seems like such a weird line for QQ+, trusting your opponent to bet for you and not check behind OOP seems really really bad if your villain is not a maniac.

    Also only aces I really defend the 3b with is like AJ+ ATs+ not sure if A2s-A9s should be in my calling range here. Anyways you are right its roughly 12% calling range: JJ-22, AQs-ATs, KJs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo, KQo or 11.76%. I guess it makes sense that a ton of that is better to continue with than AQ.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Only thing I'd add is to ask you whether there is any starting hand with a 9 in it when you call the 3-bet, and if so, what %-age of your range is composed of combos w/ a 9.

    My guess is that you have no 9's in your range to call the 3-bet, and if Villain can beat pr J's, then he's just milking you.

    Then again, if you would 4-bet { KK+, AK } pre-flop, then you literally have nothing for him to fear aside from weak KQ-, which he may be able to beat anyway (assuming he has { TT+, Kx }).


    This seems like I'm giving Villain a lot of credit for hand reading at 2NL, so maybe overkill, but still good points. Plus, this is barely hand-reading, and almost into the, "He so totally doesn't have a monster PRE, here, so I'm totes good, right?" feel from Villain's POV.
  5. #5
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkafelts View Post
    Also only aces I really defend the 3b with is like AJ+ ATs+ not sure if A2s-A9s should be in my calling range here.
    I suggest dropping your valuation of { A9 - A6 } as being as strong as { A5 - A2 }.

    The smaller Aces can make straights, which the mid aces cannot.

    I'd consider trying out going full aggro with a small %-age of weak, suited AX hands. Treat them like KK+. They have not terrible odds against KK-, and can get QQ to fold pre sometimes.

    Of course, don't go overboard and start spamming the raise button just because you have AXs. You need to have an observation which leads you to believe that Villain is folding too much to this type of raise, and that you should be pushing him with some weak holdings.

    When Villain is calling too much, you do not want to polarize your range like this. You would NOT have a split range of strong and weak hands, you would just have strong hands. When Villain calls too much, you weight your range to dominate their calls. When Villain folds too much, you weight your range to dominate their folds.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 12-19-2016 at 05:21 PM.
  6. #6
    Why are we minraise opening at 2nl? We are we calling down ace high?

    Hand 1, fold flop. Hand 2, fold flop. Hand 3, check back turn, fold to river bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    @ong: If there's a guy in the blinds who thinks he should always defend against a BTN raise, and I'm getting 3-bet every time I open, then I'll adjust in a couple of ways.

    I'll open a bit tighter, and I'll start min-raise/calling all 3-bets. I'm expecting him to 3-bet, so I'm playing the range I'm comfortable playing at the price the pot will start, which is higher than usual, but controlled at least somewhat.

    How I play OTF is a further study.
  8. #8
    Hand 1- Just fold flop. On turn I would probably bet smaller. No need to bet that big imo. Half pot or even smaller is fine IP. His entire range that will fold will fold to smaller or bigger, his entire range that will call will call smaller or bigger. River shove is read dependent. Some ppl will believe you have Jx and others will put you on a bricked FD.

    Hand 2 - I see the logic, that he's likely very polarized betting turn. That being said I don't think he needs ot be scared of that many 9sx in your range and if he's capable of going thin value then he should prob be pretty happy just tripling off KK/AA here. This is just not a good bluffing spot for villain.

    Hand 3- If you're content takin AQ to showdown on flop then there is no need to bet turn? Just check this down. I suppose on river if you check it down there you can bet but I'd def check turn.

    Overall you're defending too wide to cbets imo and getting yourself into trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  9. #9
    I have been min opening v 2nl "regs" with 3 bet stats > 10. There seems to be a surprisingly high # of these types of players. I have 1.3k hands on a guy who is 21/18 with 16% 3b. Not sure if this is bad. Just feel it gives us a more comfortable SPR when we decide to continue.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why are we minraise opening at 2nl? We are we calling down ace high?

    Hand 1, fold flop. Hand 2, fold flop. Hand 3, check back turn, fold to river bet.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    @ong: If there's a guy in the blinds who thinks he should always defend against a BTN raise, and I'm getting 3-bet every time I open, then I'll adjust in a couple of ways.

    I'll open a bit tighter, and I'll start min-raise/calling all 3-bets. I'm expecting him to 3-bet, so I'm playing the range I'm comfortable playing at the price the pot will start, which is higher than usual, but controlled at least somewhat.

    How I play OTF is a further study.
    The problem I have with this is that if we're opening x2 from the button, we're going to get 3b more from the bb. My plan would be to tighten up a little and increase my opening size, not decrease. If I have both the stronger range and position post flop, then I want the pot to be bigger, not smaller.

    I think on reflection I'm calling flop h2. We have backdoor draws and therefore playability on a reasonable amount of turns. We also have overcards. I'm not just going to auto-fold to his bets when we miss, this seems like the ideal spot to float. Turn is an easy fold. But the other two, I'm giving up after flop in both cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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